Russia Russia Russia to war or not to war

[Guest]

like the “police action” in Korea
like the Tonkin Gulf resolution that circumvented Congress
Coalition of the “willing”
Iran / Contra
Iraqi “freedom”
Somalia

Its too bad Americans cant remember beyond the last month, or in the immortal words of George W.....”Fool me once....shame....shame on......shame on......YOU.  Fool me twice....you cant....cant....fool me again.

Never thought Id quote W. in a prophetic fashion, but “WHOOP, There it is”

[Guest]

If Russia, the Ukraine, etc. didn't have massive oil reserves, they'd have no real power. They are the world's gas station outside the Middle East.

[Guest]

@StickyBun said:
If Russia, the Ukraine, etc. didn't have massive oil reserves, they'd have no real power. They are the world's gas station outside the Middle East.

Fun fact: Hitler wanted those oil reserves badly. It's part of the reason he turned on the Soviets. But on his way to get them, his ego undermined him. He saw Stalingrad and an opportunity to humiliate his adversary, Joseph Stalin. So he changes direction, heads to Stalingrad, and gets his ass kicked. Germany lost nearly a million men in that battle, TWICE the number of American deaths in the entirety of the war in both Europe and the Pacific.  

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@StickyBun said:
If Russia, the Ukraine, etc. didn't have massive oil reserves, they'd have no real power. They are the world's gas station outside the Middle East.

Fun fact: Hitler wanted those oil reserves badly. It's part of the reason he turned on the Soviets. But on his way to get them, his ego undermined him. He saw Stalingrad and an opportunity to humiliate his adversary, Joseph Stalin. So he changes direction, heads to Stalingrad, and gets his ass kicked. Germany lost nearly a million men in that battle, TWICE the number of American deaths in the entirety of the war in both Europe and the Pacific.  

Yeah, I've been watching some recent YouTube docs on Battle of Britain, Midway, Pearl Harbor, etc. The Ukraine also had vast wheat fields, etc. that Hitler wanted. What you learn (or at least I have) about war is its really about attrition and information. U-boats were devastating and until they broke the code for the Enigma machine, England almost starved to death. The 'fog of war' is a real thing. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor because they thought the U.S. had no stomach for war and they could negotiate a peace that would include them acquiring territory in Southeast Asia. All it did was seal the fate of both Japan and Germany. The USA's ability to manufacture was unmatched in the world. It was the beginning of the end for the Axis. Then of course Hitler's stupidity by turning on Russia and fighting a two-front war greatly helped. 

Strategically, Japan and Germany were absolutely brilliant most times in WW2. Better certainly than the United States. But that isn't what wins large, full scale wars, just ask General Robert E. Lee.

[Guest]

@StickyBun said:

@MaroonBells said:

@StickyBun said:
If Russia, the Ukraine, etc. didn't have massive oil reserves, they'd have no real power. They are the world's gas station outside the Middle East.

Fun fact: Hitler wanted those oil reserves badly. It's part of the reason he turned on the Soviets. But on his way to get them, his ego undermined him. He saw Stalingrad and an opportunity to humiliate his adversary, Joseph Stalin. So he changes direction, heads to Stalingrad, and gets his ass kicked. Germany lost nearly a million men in that battle, TWICE the number of American deaths in the entirety of the war in both Europe and the Pacific.  

Yeah, I've been watching some recent YouTube docs on Battle of Britain, Midway, Pearl Harbor, etc. The Ukraine also had vast wheat fields, etc. that Hitler wanted. What you learn (or at least I have) about war is its really about attrition and information. The 'fog of war' is a real thing. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor because they thought the U.S. had no stomach for war and they could negotiate a peace that would include them acquiring territory in Southeast Asia. All it did was seal the fate of both Japan and Germany. The USA's ability to manufacture was unmatched in the world. It was the beginning of the end for the Axis. Then of course Hitler's stupidity by turning on Russia and fighting a two-front war greatly helped. 

Strategically, Japan and Germany were absolutely brilliant most times in WW2. Better certainly than the United States. But that isn't what wins wars, just ask General Robert E. Lee.

Yep, at the beginning of WWII, the US had a handful of aircraft carriers. By the end, they had 99. I could never figure out why the Japanese thought the US would just sue for peace given that kind of industrial might. And they KNEW it. Just blows my mind. 

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@StickyBun said:

@MaroonBells said:

@StickyBun said:
If Russia, the Ukraine, etc. didn't have massive oil reserves, they'd have no real power. They are the world's gas station outside the Middle East.

Fun fact: Hitler wanted those oil reserves badly. It's part of the reason he turned on the Soviets. But on his way to get them, his ego undermined him. He saw Stalingrad and an opportunity to humiliate his adversary, Joseph Stalin. So he changes direction, heads to Stalingrad, and gets his ass kicked. Germany lost nearly a million men in that battle, TWICE the number of American deaths in the entirety of the war in both Europe and the Pacific.  

Yeah, I've been watching some recent YouTube docs on Battle of Britain, Midway, Pearl Harbor, etc. The Ukraine also had vast wheat fields, etc. that Hitler wanted. What you learn (or at least I have) about war is its really about attrition and information. The 'fog of war' is a real thing. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor because they thought the U.S. had no stomach for war and they could negotiate a peace that would include them acquiring territory in Southeast Asia. All it did was seal the fate of both Japan and Germany. The USA's ability to manufacture was unmatched in the world. It was the beginning of the end for the Axis. Then of course Hitler's stupidity by turning on Russia and fighting a two-front war greatly helped. 

Strategically, Japan and Germany were absolutely brilliant most times in WW2. Better certainly than the United States. But that isn't what wins wars, just ask General Robert E. Lee.

Yep, at the beginning of WWII, the US had a handful of aircraft carriers. By the end, they had 99. I could never figure out why the Japanese thought the US would just sue for peace given that kind of industrial might. And they KNEW it. Just blows my mind. 

Everyone knew. When Churchill found out, he was giddy and popped champagne and said, 'Britain is saved. Britain will live. Hitler's fate is sealed'. 

[Guest]

I'm a big WW2 buff, especially Euro front...Not sure why cause I despise war and politics. 

If you look back at how close Hitler was to wining even a two front war, its pretty scary

If he kept the pressure on Britain and didnt invade Russia in 41?  Britain would have been forced to capitulate
If he kept up supply chain and better prepared for winter? He was on the outer suburbs of Moscow
If he didnt remove one of his armies to defend Sicily in 1943? He would have won the battle of Kursk and entrapped 5 Soviet Armies

At the end of the day it really was bad strategic decisions and the American military industrial complex that turned the tide against tyranny. 

How the 1930-1940 Germans became that ideologically cancerous is a whole other thread, and lesson for humanity. 

[Guest]

@purplefaithful said:
I'm a big WW2 buff, especially Euro front...Not sure why cause I despise war and politics. 

If you look back at how close Hitler was to wining even a two front war, its pretty scary

If he kept the pressure on Britain and didnt invade Russia in 41?  Britain would have been forced to capitulate
If he kept up supply chain and better prepared for winter? He was on the outer suburbs of Moscow
If he didnt remove one of his armies to defend Sicily in 1943? He would have won the battle of Kursk and entrapped 5 Soviet Armies

At the end of the day it really was bad strategic decisions and the American military industrial complex that turned the tide against tyranny. 

How the 1930-1940 Germans became that ideologically cancerous is a whole other thread, and lesson for humanity. 

I think you're right that his mistakes allowed the allies to get the upper hand, and if Hitler didn't make so many of them, it would've prolonged the war for years. But I don't think he would've won. The American industrial might would've won out in the end...eventually. 

The thing I keep coming back to was that his mistakes were so EGO-driven. (And, yes, I do say this acknowledging conversations we've had in recent years about the impact of stability and ego in our leaders). His ego-driving decision to go after Stalingrad, which didn't hold a lot of strategic value, is just one example among dozens.

Another is when he stopped his army from going after the British troops in Dunkirk. The bulk of the British military were stranded. Sitting ducks. And instead of continuing on, he wanted the glory of watching his Luftwaffe mow them down on the beaches. He paused and the Brits escaped. If he hadn't, the Brits would've been all but done. 

[Guest]

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@purplefaithful said:
I'm a big WW2 buff, especially Euro front...Not sure why cause I despise war and politics. 

If you look back at how close Hitler was to wining even a two front war, its pretty scary

If he kept the pressure on Britain and didnt invade Russia in 41?  Britain would have been forced to capitulate
If he kept up supply chain and better prepared for winter? He was on the outer suburbs of Moscow
If he didnt remove one of his armies to defend Sicily in 1943? He would have won the battle of Kursk and entrapped 5 Soviet Armies

At the end of the day it really was bad strategic decisions and the American military industrial complex that turned the tide against tyranny. 

How the 1930-1940 Germans became that ideologically cancerous is a whole other thread, and lesson for humanity. 

I think you're right that his mistakes allowed the allies to get the upper hand, and if Hitler didn't make so many of them, it would've prolonged the war for years. But I don't think he would've won. The American industrial might would've won out in the end...eventually. 

The thing I keep coming back to was that his mistakes were so EGO-driven. (And, yes, I do say this acknowledging conversations we've had in recent years about the impact of stability and ego in our leaders). His ego-driving decision to go after Stalingrad, which didn't hold a lot of strategic value, is just one example among dozens.

Another is when he stopped his army from going after the British troops in Dunkirk. The bulk of the British military were stranded. Sitting ducks. And instead of continuing on, he wanted the glory of watching his Luftwaffe mow them down on the beaches. He paused and the Brits escaped. If he hadn't, the Brits would've been all but done. 

Yes, Dunkirk is a very good example and early in the war too...

I agree I'm not sure he ever would have defeated the USA even if Britain and Russia went down in flames. But it would have been damn dire. 

This can quickly pivot to a discussion on isolationists and the impact Pearl Harbor had on bringing the US into war - again.