Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pattersaur said:
@ JR44 said:
He looked pretty uncomfortable and tried all he could to change the subject and get around it, that was far from any kind of ringing endorsement. I have rarely heard a head coach give a press conference and not say that he had already talked to the QB, heck the Miami coach called Tua on the plane. You would think that a guy who coached someone for 3 years would have already talked to Cousins and would then say on these interviews that he and Cousins have talked and discussed how they are going to move forward. After that interview, I would definitely put my money on us having a new QB.
Yeah idk what’s going to happen but it’s like I posted in another thread I just do not see how you can overhaul the defense AND extend Kirk AND do it all without seriously hindering the cap in the future.
Is our 2022 outlook worth mortgaging the future for? Most would say no.
You can overhaul the defense two ways: Trading Kirk and extending Kirk. I'm going to say that extending and trading would trim about the same amount from his 22 cap hit.
Extending Kirk
Gives you the cap space needed to add pieces to the defense. Vikings would be immediately competitive and likely contend for the divisional title. Does it add money onto future years? Yes, but probably not by more than the amount the cap is supposed to increase over those years.
Trading Kirk
Gives you the cap space needed to add pieces to the defense. It cleans up future years and allows you to sign free agents with much more headroom. Problem is, obviously, you now don't have a QB. And history tells us it can take years, decades even, to land on a guy you can win with. Last QB the Vikings had who was comparable to Cousins was Daunte Culpepper 20 years ago. Jets have been looking since Namath.
When you think of struggling franchises, it's almost always because they haven't found that guy. Browns, Bears, Jets, Lions, Texans, Dolphins, Raiders. Sometimes teams "think" they have a guy: RGIII, Mayfield, Watson, Luck, Bridgewater...but after a handful of years, the questions come. Struggles, injuries, off field issues. Others are just all out busts: Winston, Trubisky, Mariota, Haskins, Darnold, Rosen, Goff, Wentz, Bortles, Manziel, RGIII, Sanchez...
Bottom line
If you have a guy as good and as durable as Cousins, you do everything you can to keep him. Some look at what the Rams did by bringing in Stafford as an argument for going out and getting your guy. Folks, the Vikings are the Lions in that scenario, not the Rams.
Agreed. But the issue is there isn't a very good reason for Kirk to renegotiate at this point. His best outcomes is playing out 2022 on his current deal and then accessing how high the salary cap rises. The Vikings also can't tag him so they'll have to compete with everyone else for his services which means big $$$ and player friendly terms.
So that basically leaves you with the only option this year being to add void years, I don't see why he would disagree with that, moving some money into future seasons on the cap. Kirk still gets is upfront. Thats likely the way they'll clear $10-15M for 2022. It also doesn't lock them into Kirk long-term. Ideal, no. Best option if Kirk won't sign a new deal? Probably.
I don't think they'll actively try to trade Kirk. But if someone makes a compelling offer you have to consider it.
That's a good point about how next offseason will be the best time to hit on the market. Void years might be the best solution for both sides.
Also agree that the Vikings will listen to offers. They'd be fools if they didn't. But I have to think all offers must include some kind of bridge. I don't think the Vikings want to saddle Dalvin, JJ and ISJ with Kellen Mond or a rookie. The bridge, the QB in '22, that's where a trade gets hard to see. There's always Teddy I guess, who is a free agent.
I also think bringing back a bridge in a trade likely helps the team taking on Kirk rationalize the money. Carolina (Darnold) and Cleveland (Mayfield) probably are your best candidates since they can send out about $18M in the form of their QBs which is equivalent to about the $$$ the Vikings would need to eat to make Kirk palatable. Which I do think is a bit media driven.
In the end a pick is nice if you can get one, but your bottom line above is about where I end up, you don't want to get in the market of trading even average QBs without an improvement lined up. The CLE & SF front offices are also fans of void years while the Vikings only really used them last year when the cap became a massive bottle-neck. They aren't bad. I know you're already thinking about this Maroon, but for everyone else think about it this way:
If you tack on 4 void years and move $12.5M of money; Kirk's contract becomes:
2022: $22.5M base salary / $10M Signing Bonus / $2.5M Restructure / Cap Hit $35M / $45M Dead - There is no change in dead money and you've saved $10M in 2022.
2023: $2.5M Restructure - VOID YEAR $10M Dead - Barring an extension the $10M would hit as dead money in 2023. There are ways to break this up between 2023/24 if needed
2024: $2.5M Restructure
2025: $2.5M Restructure
2026: $2.5M Restructure
This strategy basically gives you a QB now and the option to pay up if he has massive success under KOC and the new coaching staff. Otherwise you move on with the same dead money as if you were to trade him today without eating any salary. Based on the rising cap its actually "less" in dead money since it would be discounted by the rate of cap increase.
That contract looks ok but what would be Kirk’s incentive to sign this rather than just playing out this season and hitting FA?
Quote: @pattersaur said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pattersaur said:
@ JR44 said:
He looked pretty uncomfortable and tried all he could to change the subject and get around it, that was far from any kind of ringing endorsement. I have rarely heard a head coach give a press conference and not say that he had already talked to the QB, heck the Miami coach called Tua on the plane. You would think that a guy who coached someone for 3 years would have already talked to Cousins and would then say on these interviews that he and Cousins have talked and discussed how they are going to move forward. After that interview, I would definitely put my money on us having a new QB.
Yeah idk what’s going to happen but it’s like I posted in another thread I just do not see how you can overhaul the defense AND extend Kirk AND do it all without seriously hindering the cap in the future.
Is our 2022 outlook worth mortgaging the future for? Most would say no.
You can overhaul the defense two ways: Trading Kirk and extending Kirk. I'm going to say that extending and trading would trim about the same amount from his 22 cap hit.
Extending Kirk
Gives you the cap space needed to add pieces to the defense. Vikings would be immediately competitive and likely contend for the divisional title. Does it add money onto future years? Yes, but probably not by more than the amount the cap is supposed to increase over those years.
Trading Kirk
Gives you the cap space needed to add pieces to the defense. It cleans up future years and allows you to sign free agents with much more headroom. Problem is, obviously, you now don't have a QB. And history tells us it can take years, decades even, to land on a guy you can win with. Last QB the Vikings had who was comparable to Cousins was Daunte Culpepper 20 years ago. Jets have been looking since Namath.
When you think of struggling franchises, it's almost always because they haven't found that guy. Browns, Bears, Jets, Lions, Texans, Dolphins, Raiders. Sometimes teams "think" they have a guy: RGIII, Mayfield, Watson, Luck, Bridgewater...but after a handful of years, the questions come. Struggles, injuries, off field issues. Others are just all out busts: Winston, Trubisky, Mariota, Haskins, Darnold, Rosen, Goff, Wentz, Bortles, Manziel, RGIII, Sanchez...
Bottom line
If you have a guy as good and as durable as Cousins, you do everything you can to keep him. Some look at what the Rams did by bringing in Stafford as an argument for going out and getting your guy. Folks, the Vikings are the Lions in that scenario, not the Rams.
Agreed. But the issue is there isn't a very good reason for Kirk to renegotiate at this point. His best outcomes is playing out 2022 on his current deal and then accessing how high the salary cap rises. The Vikings also can't tag him so they'll have to compete with everyone else for his services which means big $$$ and player friendly terms.
So that basically leaves you with the only option this year being to add void years, I don't see why he would disagree with that, moving some money into future seasons on the cap. Kirk still gets is upfront. Thats likely the way they'll clear $10-15M for 2022. It also doesn't lock them into Kirk long-term. Ideal, no. Best option if Kirk won't sign a new deal? Probably.
I don't think they'll actively try to trade Kirk. But if someone makes a compelling offer you have to consider it.
That's a good point about how next offseason will be the best time to hit on the market. Void years might be the best solution for both sides.
Also agree that the Vikings will listen to offers. They'd be fools if they didn't. But I have to think all offers must include some kind of bridge. I don't think the Vikings want to saddle Dalvin, JJ and ISJ with Kellen Mond or a rookie. The bridge, the QB in '22, that's where a trade gets hard to see. There's always Teddy I guess, who is a free agent.
I also think bringing back a bridge in a trade likely helps the team taking on Kirk rationalize the money. Carolina (Darnold) and Cleveland (Mayfield) probably are your best candidates since they can send out about $18M in the form of their QBs which is equivalent to about the $$$ the Vikings would need to eat to make Kirk palatable. Which I do think is a bit media driven.
In the end a pick is nice if you can get one, but your bottom line above is about where I end up, you don't want to get in the market of trading even average QBs without an improvement lined up. The CLE & SF front offices are also fans of void years while the Vikings only really used them last year when the cap became a massive bottle-neck. They aren't bad. I know you're already thinking about this Maroon, but for everyone else think about it this way:
If you tack on 4 void years and move $12.5M of money; Kirk's contract becomes:
2022: $22.5M base salary / $10M Signing Bonus / $2.5M Restructure / Cap Hit $35M / $45M Dead - There is no change in dead money and you've saved $10M in 2022.
2023: $2.5M Restructure - VOID YEAR $10M Dead - Barring an extension the $10M would hit as dead money in 2023. There are ways to break this up between 2023/24 if needed
2024: $2.5M Restructure
2025: $2.5M Restructure
2026: $2.5M Restructure
This strategy basically gives you a QB now and the option to pay up if he has massive success under KOC and the new coaching staff. Otherwise you move on with the same dead money as if you were to trade him today without eating any salary. Based on the rising cap its actually "less" in dead money since it would be discounted by the rate of cap increase.
That contract looks ok but what would be Kirk’s incentive to sign this rather than just playing out this season and hitting FA?
He doesn't need an incentive. Geoff is advocating adding voidable years to his current deal.
Quote: @JustinTime18™ said:
@ pattersaur said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pattersaur said:
@ JR44 said:
He looked pretty uncomfortable and tried all he could to change the subject and get around it, that was far from any kind of ringing endorsement. I have rarely heard a head coach give a press conference and not say that he had already talked to the QB, heck the Miami coach called Tua on the plane. You would think that a guy who coached someone for 3 years would have already talked to Cousins and would then say on these interviews that he and Cousins have talked and discussed how they are going to move forward. After that interview, I would definitely put my money on us having a new QB.
Yeah idk what’s going to happen but it’s like I posted in another thread I just do not see how you can overhaul the defense AND extend Kirk AND do it all without seriously hindering the cap in the future.
Is our 2022 outlook worth mortgaging the future for? Most would say no.
You can overhaul the defense two ways: Trading Kirk and extending Kirk. I'm going to say that extending and trading would trim about the same amount from his 22 cap hit.
Extending Kirk
Gives you the cap space needed to add pieces to the defense. Vikings would be immediately competitive and likely contend for the divisional title. Does it add money onto future years? Yes, but probably not by more than the amount the cap is supposed to increase over those years.
Trading Kirk
Gives you the cap space needed to add pieces to the defense. It cleans up future years and allows you to sign free agents with much more headroom. Problem is, obviously, you now don't have a QB. And history tells us it can take years, decades even, to land on a guy you can win with. Last QB the Vikings had who was comparable to Cousins was Daunte Culpepper 20 years ago. Jets have been looking since Namath.
When you think of struggling franchises, it's almost always because they haven't found that guy. Browns, Bears, Jets, Lions, Texans, Dolphins, Raiders. Sometimes teams "think" they have a guy: RGIII, Mayfield, Watson, Luck, Bridgewater...but after a handful of years, the questions come. Struggles, injuries, off field issues. Others are just all out busts: Winston, Trubisky, Mariota, Haskins, Darnold, Rosen, Goff, Wentz, Bortles, Manziel, RGIII, Sanchez...
Bottom line
If you have a guy as good and as durable as Cousins, you do everything you can to keep him. Some look at what the Rams did by bringing in Stafford as an argument for going out and getting your guy. Folks, the Vikings are the Lions in that scenario, not the Rams.
Agreed. But the issue is there isn't a very good reason for Kirk to renegotiate at this point. His best outcomes is playing out 2022 on his current deal and then accessing how high the salary cap rises. The Vikings also can't tag him so they'll have to compete with everyone else for his services which means big $$$ and player friendly terms.
So that basically leaves you with the only option this year being to add void years, I don't see why he would disagree with that, moving some money into future seasons on the cap. Kirk still gets is upfront. Thats likely the way they'll clear $10-15M for 2022. It also doesn't lock them into Kirk long-term. Ideal, no. Best option if Kirk won't sign a new deal? Probably.
I don't think they'll actively try to trade Kirk. But if someone makes a compelling offer you have to consider it.
That's a good point about how next offseason will be the best time to hit on the market. Void years might be the best solution for both sides.
Also agree that the Vikings will listen to offers. They'd be fools if they didn't. But I have to think all offers must include some kind of bridge. I don't think the Vikings want to saddle Dalvin, JJ and ISJ with Kellen Mond or a rookie. The bridge, the QB in '22, that's where a trade gets hard to see. There's always Teddy I guess, who is a free agent.
I also think bringing back a bridge in a trade likely helps the team taking on Kirk rationalize the money. Carolina (Darnold) and Cleveland (Mayfield) probably are your best candidates since they can send out about $18M in the form of their QBs which is equivalent to about the $$$ the Vikings would need to eat to make Kirk palatable. Which I do think is a bit media driven.
In the end a pick is nice if you can get one, but your bottom line above is about where I end up, you don't want to get in the market of trading even average QBs without an improvement lined up. The CLE & SF front offices are also fans of void years while the Vikings only really used them last year when the cap became a massive bottle-neck. They aren't bad. I know you're already thinking about this Maroon, but for everyone else think about it this way:
If you tack on 4 void years and move $12.5M of money; Kirk's contract becomes:
2022: $22.5M base salary / $10M Signing Bonus / $2.5M Restructure / Cap Hit $35M / $45M Dead - There is no change in dead money and you've saved $10M in 2022.
2023: $2.5M Restructure - VOID YEAR $10M Dead - Barring an extension the $10M would hit as dead money in 2023. There are ways to break this up between 2023/24 if needed
2024: $2.5M Restructure
2025: $2.5M Restructure
2026: $2.5M Restructure
This strategy basically gives you a QB now and the option to pay up if he has massive success under KOC and the new coaching staff. Otherwise you move on with the same dead money as if you were to trade him today without eating any salary. Based on the rising cap its actually "less" in dead money since it would be discounted by the rate of cap increase.
That contract looks ok but what would be Kirk’s incentive to sign this rather than just playing out this season and hitting FA?
He doesn't need an incentive. Geoff is advocating adding voidable years to his current deal.
Move some of KC's $, re-do Thielen contract (and Dirty Harry's potentially) I think Barr is outta here. I'd like to see them keep P2 if possible.
A few moves and the Vikings aren't in too bad of shape.
At some point they have to have an eye to re-signing JJ too. Hard to believe he will be going into his 3 year already.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ JustinTime18™ said:
@ pattersaur said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pattersaur said:
@ JR44 said:
He looked pretty uncomfortable and tried all he could to change the subject and get around it, that was far from any kind of ringing endorsement. I have rarely heard a head coach give a press conference and not say that he had already talked to the QB, heck the Miami coach called Tua on the plane. You would think that a guy who coached someone for 3 years would have already talked to Cousins and would then say on these interviews that he and Cousins have talked and discussed how they are going to move forward. After that interview, I would definitely put my money on us having a new QB.
Yeah idk what’s going to happen but it’s like I posted in another thread I just do not see how you can overhaul the defense AND extend Kirk AND do it all without seriously hindering the cap in the future.
Is our 2022 outlook worth mortgaging the future for? Most would say no.
You can overhaul the defense two ways: Trading Kirk and extending Kirk. I'm going to say that extending and trading would trim about the same amount from his 22 cap hit.
Extending Kirk
Gives you the cap space needed to add pieces to the defense. Vikings would be immediately competitive and likely contend for the divisional title. Does it add money onto future years? Yes, but probably not by more than the amount the cap is supposed to increase over those years.
Trading Kirk
Gives you the cap space needed to add pieces to the defense. It cleans up future years and allows you to sign free agents with much more headroom. Problem is, obviously, you now don't have a QB. And history tells us it can take years, decades even, to land on a guy you can win with. Last QB the Vikings had who was comparable to Cousins was Daunte Culpepper 20 years ago. Jets have been looking since Namath.
When you think of struggling franchises, it's almost always because they haven't found that guy. Browns, Bears, Jets, Lions, Texans, Dolphins, Raiders. Sometimes teams "think" they have a guy: RGIII, Mayfield, Watson, Luck, Bridgewater...but after a handful of years, the questions come. Struggles, injuries, off field issues. Others are just all out busts: Winston, Trubisky, Mariota, Haskins, Darnold, Rosen, Goff, Wentz, Bortles, Manziel, RGIII, Sanchez...
Bottom line
If you have a guy as good and as durable as Cousins, you do everything you can to keep him. Some look at what the Rams did by bringing in Stafford as an argument for going out and getting your guy. Folks, the Vikings are the Lions in that scenario, not the Rams.
Agreed. But the issue is there isn't a very good reason for Kirk to renegotiate at this point. His best outcomes is playing out 2022 on his current deal and then accessing how high the salary cap rises. The Vikings also can't tag him so they'll have to compete with everyone else for his services which means big $$$ and player friendly terms.
So that basically leaves you with the only option this year being to add void years, I don't see why he would disagree with that, moving some money into future seasons on the cap. Kirk still gets is upfront. Thats likely the way they'll clear $10-15M for 2022. It also doesn't lock them into Kirk long-term. Ideal, no. Best option if Kirk won't sign a new deal? Probably.
I don't think they'll actively try to trade Kirk. But if someone makes a compelling offer you have to consider it.
That's a good point about how next offseason will be the best time to hit on the market. Void years might be the best solution for both sides.
Also agree that the Vikings will listen to offers. They'd be fools if they didn't. But I have to think all offers must include some kind of bridge. I don't think the Vikings want to saddle Dalvin, JJ and ISJ with Kellen Mond or a rookie. The bridge, the QB in '22, that's where a trade gets hard to see. There's always Teddy I guess, who is a free agent.
I also think bringing back a bridge in a trade likely helps the team taking on Kirk rationalize the money. Carolina (Darnold) and Cleveland (Mayfield) probably are your best candidates since they can send out about $18M in the form of their QBs which is equivalent to about the $$$ the Vikings would need to eat to make Kirk palatable. Which I do think is a bit media driven.
In the end a pick is nice if you can get one, but your bottom line above is about where I end up, you don't want to get in the market of trading even average QBs without an improvement lined up. The CLE & SF front offices are also fans of void years while the Vikings only really used them last year when the cap became a massive bottle-neck. They aren't bad. I know you're already thinking about this Maroon, but for everyone else think about it this way:
If you tack on 4 void years and move $12.5M of money; Kirk's contract becomes:
2022: $22.5M base salary / $10M Signing Bonus / $2.5M Restructure / Cap Hit $35M / $45M Dead - There is no change in dead money and you've saved $10M in 2022.
2023: $2.5M Restructure - VOID YEAR $10M Dead - Barring an extension the $10M would hit as dead money in 2023. There are ways to break this up between 2023/24 if needed
2024: $2.5M Restructure
2025: $2.5M Restructure
2026: $2.5M Restructure
This strategy basically gives you a QB now and the option to pay up if he has massive success under KOC and the new coaching staff. Otherwise you move on with the same dead money as if you were to trade him today without eating any salary. Based on the rising cap its actually "less" in dead money since it would be discounted by the rate of cap increase.
That contract looks ok but what would be Kirk’s incentive to sign this rather than just playing out this season and hitting FA?
He doesn't need an incentive. Geoff is advocating adding voidable years to his current deal.
Move some of KC's $, re-do Thielen contract (and Dirty Harry's potentially) I think Barr is outta here. I'd like to see them keep P2 if possible.
A few moves and the Vikings aren't in too bad of shape.
At some point they have to have an eye to re-signing JJ too. Hard to believe he will be going into his 3 year already.
It's a shame we are moving to more 3-4 looks at this point in Barr's career. This is a Greek tragedy.
I'd like to see a viable option to replace Cousins. Give him an average D last year, and we're easily an 11 win team at minimum. Going to be pretty hard to replace 33 tds and 7 ints. Those guys don't grow on trees.
Quote: @JustinTime18™ said:
@ pattersaur said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pattersaur said:
@ JR44 said:
He looked pretty uncomfortable and tried all he could to change the subject and get around it, that was far from any kind of ringing endorsement. I have rarely heard a head coach give a press conference and not say that he had already talked to the QB, heck the Miami coach called Tua on the plane. You would think that a guy who coached someone for 3 years would have already talked to Cousins and would then say on these interviews that he and Cousins have talked and discussed how they are going to move forward. After that interview, I would definitely put my money on us having a new QB.
Yeah idk what’s going to happen but it’s like I posted in another thread I just do not see how you can overhaul the defense AND extend Kirk AND do it all without seriously hindering the cap in the future.
Is our 2022 outlook worth mortgaging the future for? Most would say no.
You can overhaul the defense two ways: Trading Kirk and extending Kirk. I'm going to say that extending and trading would trim about the same amount from his 22 cap hit.
Extending Kirk
Gives you the cap space needed to add pieces to the defense. Vikings would be immediately competitive and likely contend for the divisional title. Does it add money onto future years? Yes, but probably not by more than the amount the cap is supposed to increase over those years.
Trading Kirk
Gives you the cap space needed to add pieces to the defense. It cleans up future years and allows you to sign free agents with much more headroom. Problem is, obviously, you now don't have a QB. And history tells us it can take years, decades even, to land on a guy you can win with. Last QB the Vikings had who was comparable to Cousins was Daunte Culpepper 20 years ago. Jets have been looking since Namath.
When you think of struggling franchises, it's almost always because they haven't found that guy. Browns, Bears, Jets, Lions, Texans, Dolphins, Raiders. Sometimes teams "think" they have a guy: RGIII, Mayfield, Watson, Luck, Bridgewater...but after a handful of years, the questions come. Struggles, injuries, off field issues. Others are just all out busts: Winston, Trubisky, Mariota, Haskins, Darnold, Rosen, Goff, Wentz, Bortles, Manziel, RGIII, Sanchez...
Bottom line
If you have a guy as good and as durable as Cousins, you do everything you can to keep him. Some look at what the Rams did by bringing in Stafford as an argument for going out and getting your guy. Folks, the Vikings are the Lions in that scenario, not the Rams.
Agreed. But the issue is there isn't a very good reason for Kirk to renegotiate at this point. His best outcomes is playing out 2022 on his current deal and then accessing how high the salary cap rises. The Vikings also can't tag him so they'll have to compete with everyone else for his services which means big $$$ and player friendly terms.
So that basically leaves you with the only option this year being to add void years, I don't see why he would disagree with that, moving some money into future seasons on the cap. Kirk still gets is upfront. Thats likely the way they'll clear $10-15M for 2022. It also doesn't lock them into Kirk long-term. Ideal, no. Best option if Kirk won't sign a new deal? Probably.
I don't think they'll actively try to trade Kirk. But if someone makes a compelling offer you have to consider it.
That's a good point about how next offseason will be the best time to hit on the market. Void years might be the best solution for both sides.
Also agree that the Vikings will listen to offers. They'd be fools if they didn't. But I have to think all offers must include some kind of bridge. I don't think the Vikings want to saddle Dalvin, JJ and ISJ with Kellen Mond or a rookie. The bridge, the QB in '22, that's where a trade gets hard to see. There's always Teddy I guess, who is a free agent.
I also think bringing back a bridge in a trade likely helps the team taking on Kirk rationalize the money. Carolina (Darnold) and Cleveland (Mayfield) probably are your best candidates since they can send out about $18M in the form of their QBs which is equivalent to about the $$$ the Vikings would need to eat to make Kirk palatable. Which I do think is a bit media driven.
In the end a pick is nice if you can get one, but your bottom line above is about where I end up, you don't want to get in the market of trading even average QBs without an improvement lined up. The CLE & SF front offices are also fans of void years while the Vikings only really used them last year when the cap became a massive bottle-neck. They aren't bad. I know you're already thinking about this Maroon, but for everyone else think about it this way:
If you tack on 4 void years and move $12.5M of money; Kirk's contract becomes:
2022: $22.5M base salary / $10M Signing Bonus / $2.5M Restructure / Cap Hit $35M / $45M Dead - There is no change in dead money and you've saved $10M in 2022.
2023: $2.5M Restructure - VOID YEAR $10M Dead - Barring an extension the $10M would hit as dead money in 2023. There are ways to break this up between 2023/24 if needed
2024: $2.5M Restructure
2025: $2.5M Restructure
2026: $2.5M Restructure
This strategy basically gives you a QB now and the option to pay up if he has massive success under KOC and the new coaching staff. Otherwise you move on with the same dead money as if you were to trade him today without eating any salary. Based on the rising cap its actually "less" in dead money since it would be discounted by the rate of cap increase.
That contract looks ok but what would be Kirk’s incentive to sign this rather than just playing out this season and hitting FA?
He doesn't need an incentive. Geoff is advocating adding voidable years to his current deal.
The Vikings can do that if they want to, no matter what? Interesting, I didn’t know that. I thought Kirk had to agree to it but if not then yeah the void year scenario might be the likeliest outcome here.
Quote: @JustinTime18™ said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ JustinTime18™ said:
@ pattersaur said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pattersaur said:
@ JR44 said:
He looked pretty uncomfortable and tried all he could to change the subject and get around it, that was far from any kind of ringing endorsement. I have rarely heard a head coach give a press conference and not say that he had already talked to the QB, heck the Miami coach called Tua on the plane. You would think that a guy who coached someone for 3 years would have already talked to Cousins and would then say on these interviews that he and Cousins have talked and discussed how they are going to move forward. After that interview, I would definitely put my money on us having a new QB.
Yeah idk what’s going to happen but it’s like I posted in another thread I just do not see how you can overhaul the defense AND extend Kirk AND do it all without seriously hindering the cap in the future.
Is our 2022 outlook worth mortgaging the future for? Most would say no.
You can overhaul the defense two ways: Trading Kirk and extending Kirk. I'm going to say that extending and trading would trim about the same amount from his 22 cap hit.
Extending Kirk
Gives you the cap space needed to add pieces to the defense. Vikings would be immediately competitive and likely contend for the divisional title. Does it add money onto future years? Yes, but probably not by more than the amount the cap is supposed to increase over those years.
Trading Kirk
Gives you the cap space needed to add pieces to the defense. It cleans up future years and allows you to sign free agents with much more headroom. Problem is, obviously, you now don't have a QB. And history tells us it can take years, decades even, to land on a guy you can win with. Last QB the Vikings had who was comparable to Cousins was Daunte Culpepper 20 years ago. Jets have been looking since Namath.
When you think of struggling franchises, it's almost always because they haven't found that guy. Browns, Bears, Jets, Lions, Texans, Dolphins, Raiders. Sometimes teams "think" they have a guy: RGIII, Mayfield, Watson, Luck, Bridgewater...but after a handful of years, the questions come. Struggles, injuries, off field issues. Others are just all out busts: Winston, Trubisky, Mariota, Haskins, Darnold, Rosen, Goff, Wentz, Bortles, Manziel, RGIII, Sanchez...
Bottom line
If you have a guy as good and as durable as Cousins, you do everything you can to keep him. Some look at what the Rams did by bringing in Stafford as an argument for going out and getting your guy. Folks, the Vikings are the Lions in that scenario, not the Rams.
Agreed. But the issue is there isn't a very good reason for Kirk to renegotiate at this point. His best outcomes is playing out 2022 on his current deal and then accessing how high the salary cap rises. The Vikings also can't tag him so they'll have to compete with everyone else for his services which means big $$$ and player friendly terms.
So that basically leaves you with the only option this year being to add void years, I don't see why he would disagree with that, moving some money into future seasons on the cap. Kirk still gets is upfront. Thats likely the way they'll clear $10-15M for 2022. It also doesn't lock them into Kirk long-term. Ideal, no. Best option if Kirk won't sign a new deal? Probably.
I don't think they'll actively try to trade Kirk. But if someone makes a compelling offer you have to consider it.
That's a good point about how next offseason will be the best time to hit on the market. Void years might be the best solution for both sides.
Also agree that the Vikings will listen to offers. They'd be fools if they didn't. But I have to think all offers must include some kind of bridge. I don't think the Vikings want to saddle Dalvin, JJ and ISJ with Kellen Mond or a rookie. The bridge, the QB in '22, that's where a trade gets hard to see. There's always Teddy I guess, who is a free agent.
That contract looks ok but what would be Kirk’s incentive to sign this rather than just playing out this season and hitting FA?
He doesn't need an incentive. Geoff is advocating adding voidable years to his current deal.
Move some of KC's $, re-do Thielen contract (and Dirty Harry's potentially) I think Barr is outta here. I'd like to see them keep P2 if possible.
A few moves and the Vikings aren't in too bad of shape.
At some point they have to have an eye to re-signing JJ too. Hard to believe he will be going into his 3 year already.
It's a shame we are moving to more 3-4 looks at this point in Barr's career. This is a Greek tragedy.
I'd like to see a viable option to replace Cousins. Give him an average D last year, and we're easily an 11 win team at minimum. Going to be pretty hard to replace 33 tds and 7 ints. Those guys don't grow on trees.
Agreed on both....
As much as we all preached Barr was the straw that stirred the Zimmer D, I always felt he was in the wrong system from making splash plays and really reaching his potential.
All this talk of dumping KC...IF we end-up with a Bridgewater, Mariotta or Dalton instead? I am going to be PO'd.
Quote: @pattersaur said:
@ JustinTime18™ said:
@ pattersaur said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pattersaur said:
@ JR44 said:
He looked pretty uncomfortable and tried all he could to change the subject and get around it, that was far from any kind of ringing endorsement. I have rarely heard a head coach give a press conference and not say that he had already talked to the QB, heck the Miami coach called Tua on the plane. You would think that a guy who coached someone for 3 years would have already talked to Cousins and would then say on these interviews that he and Cousins have talked and discussed how they are going to move forward. After that interview, I would definitely put my money on us having a new QB.
Yeah idk what’s going to happen but it’s like I posted in another thread I just do not see how you can overhaul the defense AND extend Kirk AND do it all without seriously hindering the cap in the future.
Is our 2022 outlook worth mortgaging the future for? Most would say no.
You can overhaul the defense two ways: Trading Kirk and extending Kirk. I'm going to say that extending and trading would trim about the same amount from his 22 cap hit.
Extending Kirk
Gives you the cap space needed to add pieces to the defense. Vikings would be immediately competitive and likely contend for the divisional title. Does it add money onto future years? Yes, but probably not by more than the amount the cap is supposed to increase over those years.
Trading Kirk
Gives you the cap space needed to add pieces to the defense. It cleans up future years and allows you to sign free agents with much more headroom. Problem is, obviously, you now don't have a QB. And history tells us it can take years, decades even, to land on a guy you can win with. Last QB the Vikings had who was comparable to Cousins was Daunte Culpepper 20 years ago. Jets have been looking since Namath.
When you think of struggling franchises, it's almost always because they haven't found that guy. Browns, Bears, Jets, Lions, Texans, Dolphins, Raiders. Sometimes teams "think" they have a guy: RGIII, Mayfield, Watson, Luck, Bridgewater...but after a handful of years, the questions come. Struggles, injuries, off field issues. Others are just all out busts: Winston, Trubisky, Mariota, Haskins, Darnold, Rosen, Goff, Wentz, Bortles, Manziel, RGIII, Sanchez...
Bottom line
If you have a guy as good and as durable as Cousins, you do everything you can to keep him. Some look at what the Rams did by bringing in Stafford as an argument for going out and getting your guy. Folks, the Vikings are the Lions in that scenario, not the Rams.
Agreed. But the issue is there isn't a very good reason for Kirk to renegotiate at this point. His best outcomes is playing out 2022 on his current deal and then accessing how high the salary cap rises. The Vikings also can't tag him so they'll have to compete with everyone else for his services which means big $$$ and player friendly terms.
So that basically leaves you with the only option this year being to add void years, I don't see why he would disagree with that, moving some money into future seasons on the cap. Kirk still gets is upfront. Thats likely the way they'll clear $10-15M for 2022. It also doesn't lock them into Kirk long-term. Ideal, no. Best option if Kirk won't sign a new deal? Probably.
I don't think they'll actively try to trade Kirk. But if someone makes a compelling offer you have to consider it.
That's a good point about how next offseason will be the best time to hit on the market. Void years might be the best solution for both sides.
Also agree that the Vikings will listen to offers. They'd be fools if they didn't. But I have to think all offers must include some kind of bridge. I don't think the Vikings want to saddle Dalvin, JJ and ISJ with Kellen Mond or a rookie. The bridge, the QB in '22, that's where a trade gets hard to see. There's always Teddy I guess, who is a free agent.
I also think bringing back a bridge in a trade likely helps the team taking on Kirk rationalize the money. Carolina (Darnold) and Cleveland (Mayfield) probably are your best candidates since they can send out about $18M in the form of their QBs which is equivalent to about the $$$ the Vikings would need to eat to make Kirk palatable. Which I do think is a bit media driven.
In the end a pick is nice if you can get one, but your bottom line above is about where I end up, you don't want to get in the market of trading even average QBs without an improvement lined up. The CLE & SF front offices are also fans of void years while the Vikings only really used them last year when the cap became a massive bottle-neck. They aren't bad. I know you're already thinking about this Maroon, but for everyone else think about it this way:
If you tack on 4 void years and move $12.5M of money; Kirk's contract becomes:
2022: $22.5M base salary / $10M Signing Bonus / $2.5M Restructure / Cap Hit $35M / $45M Dead - There is no change in dead money and you've saved $10M in 2022.
2023: $2.5M Restructure - VOID YEAR $10M Dead - Barring an extension the $10M would hit as dead money in 2023. There are ways to break this up between 2023/24 if needed
2024: $2.5M Restructure
2025: $2.5M Restructure
2026: $2.5M Restructure
This strategy basically gives you a QB now and the option to pay up if he has massive success under KOC and the new coaching staff. Otherwise you move on with the same dead money as if you were to trade him today without eating any salary. Based on the rising cap its actually "less" in dead money since it would be discounted by the rate of cap increase.
That contract looks ok but what would be Kirk’s incentive to sign this rather than just playing out this season and hitting FA?
He doesn't need an incentive. Geoff is advocating adding voidable years to his current deal.
The Vikings can do that if they want to, no matter what? Interesting, I didn’t know that. I thought Kirk had to agree to it but if not then yeah the void year scenario might be the likeliest outcome here.
He would need to agree to add the voidable years to his deal. But there is absolutely no reason he would hesitate to do so. He get the $12.5M earlier (March vs. the season) and ultimately opens up money for the team to add players to help him win.
People oftentimes confuse not wanting to help the team as not being willing to sign any amendment to a contract. Any player signs the deal that gets them cash faster and doesn't decrease their pay. Players aren't as willing to help if you're changing the cash flow or lowering their overall income.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ JustinTime18™ said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ JustinTime18™ said:
@ pattersaur said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pattersaur said:
@ JR44 said:
He looked pretty uncomfortable and tried all he could to change the subject and get around it, that was far from any kind of ringing endorsement. I have rarely heard a head coach give a press conference and not say that he had already talked to the QB, heck the Miami coach called Tua on the plane. You would think that a guy who coached someone for 3 years would have already talked to Cousins and would then say on these interviews that he and Cousins have talked and discussed how they are going to move forward. After that interview, I would definitely put my money on us having a new QB.
Yeah idk what’s going to happen but it’s like I posted in another thread I just do not see how you can overhaul the defense AND extend Kirk AND do it all without seriously hindering the cap in the future.
Is our 2022 outlook worth mortgaging the future for? Most would say no.
You can overhaul the defense two ways: Trading Kirk and extending Kirk. I'm going to say that extending and trading would trim about the same amount from his 22 cap hit.
Extending Kirk
Gives you the cap space needed to add pieces to the defense. Vikings would be immediately competitive and likely contend for the divisional title. Does it add money onto future years? Yes, but probably not by more than the amount the cap is supposed to increase over those years.
Trading Kirk
Gives you the cap space needed to add pieces to the defense. It cleans up future years and allows you to sign free agents with much more headroom. Problem is, obviously, you now don't have a QB. And history tells us it can take years, decades even, to land on a guy you can win with. Last QB the Vikings had who was comparable to Cousins was Daunte Culpepper 20 years ago. Jets have been looking since Namath.
When you think of struggling franchises, it's almost always because they haven't found that guy. Browns, Bears, Jets, Lions, Texans, Dolphins, Raiders. Sometimes teams "think" they have a guy: RGIII, Mayfield, Watson, Luck, Bridgewater...but after a handful of years, the questions come. Struggles, injuries, off field issues. Others are just all out busts: Winston, Trubisky, Mariota, Haskins, Darnold, Rosen, Goff, Wentz, Bortles, Manziel, RGIII, Sanchez...
Bottom line
If you have a guy as good and as durable as Cousins, you do everything you can to keep him. Some look at what the Rams did by bringing in Stafford as an argument for going out and getting your guy. Folks, the Vikings are the Lions in that scenario, not the Rams.
Agreed. But the issue is there isn't a very good reason for Kirk to renegotiate at this point. His best outcomes is playing out 2022 on his current deal and then accessing how high the salary cap rises. The Vikings also can't tag him so they'll have to compete with everyone else for his services which means big $$$ and player friendly terms.
So that basically leaves you with the only option this year being to add void years, I don't see why he would disagree with that, moving some money into future seasons on the cap. Kirk still gets is upfront. Thats likely the way they'll clear $10-15M for 2022. It also doesn't lock them into Kirk long-term. Ideal, no. Best option if Kirk won't sign a new deal? Probably.
I don't think they'll actively try to trade Kirk. But if someone makes a compelling offer you have to consider it.
That's a good point about how next offseason will be the best time to hit on the market. Void years might be the best solution for both sides.
Also agree that the Vikings will listen to offers. They'd be fools if they didn't. But I have to think all offers must include some kind of bridge. I don't think the Vikings want to saddle Dalvin, JJ and ISJ with Kellen Mond or a rookie. The bridge, the QB in '22, that's where a trade gets hard to see. There's always Teddy I guess, who is a free agent.
That contract looks ok but what would be Kirk’s incentive to sign this rather than just playing out this season and hitting FA?
He doesn't need an incentive. Geoff is advocating adding voidable years to his current deal.
Move some of KC's $, re-do Thielen contract (and Dirty Harry's potentially) I think Barr is outta here. I'd like to see them keep P2 if possible.
A few moves and the Vikings aren't in too bad of shape.
At some point they have to have an eye to re-signing JJ too. Hard to believe he will be going into his 3 year already.
It's a shame we are moving to more 3-4 looks at this point in Barr's career. This is a Greek tragedy.
I'd like to see a viable option to replace Cousins. Give him an average D last year, and we're easily an 11 win team at minimum. Going to be pretty hard to replace 33 tds and 7 ints. Those guys don't grow on trees.
Agreed on both....
As much as we all preached Barr was the straw that stirred the Zimmer D, I always felt he was in the wrong system from making splash plays and really reaching his potential.
All this talk of dumping KC...IF we end-up with a Bridgewater, Mariotta or Dalton instead? I am going to be PO'd.
I don't see us unloading Cousins unless there is a viable signal caller also involved in the deal. Its one of the reasons why the Mayfield trade scenario makes the most sense if we moved him. I keep hearing them bring up the same possibility on NFL Radio if the Vikings were to move KC that the Browns make the most sense
Per Zulgad...the Panthers have called the Vikings inquiring about Cousins
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
Per Zulgad...the Panthers have called the Vikings inquiring about Cousins
And the Vikings should listen lol!
They'll get more than one call I'm sure. Its that time of year....
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