Quote: @Waterboy said:
@ VikingOracle said:
Waterboy: I am interested in your thoughts on Merck. Merck markets Ivermectin in the US. I have read a lot about how the drug companies are using the vaccines (and their influence) to increase profitability -- the follow the money argument -- and that is why the news media, etc. is ignoring some of the material you have discussed. If that is the case, why does Merck, the manufacturer of Ivermectin say that there are "[n]o scientific basis for a potential therapeutic effect against COVID-19 from pre-clinical studies" and do not advocate for the use of their drug to fight Covid? https://www.merck.com/news/merck-stateme...-pandemic/ Isn't it in Merck's financial interest to have pushed Ivermectin as a treatment this year? Interestingly, instead they seem to have put their financial resources behind developing a new Covid treatment. https://www.reuters.com/business/healthc...021-11-04/
So, I am interested in knowing why you think Merck did not advocate for its existing Ivermectin product to treat Covid but rather spent (no doubt millions of dollars) developing a new Covid treatment? I want to stress I am honestly interested in your thoughts on this subject.
This is one of the gray areas that I still have to put together at times. I don't believe in inherent evil of everybody out there. I do believe Big Pharma has a history of choosing Option B & C if it leads to increased profits, much as the tobacco companies did in knowingly lying for years. I think Merck knows that the profits out of vaccines and in slightly reconfigured drugs that can be patented makes them more money. For all of pharma, if these therapeutics are approved, then there can be no emergency use authorization for the vaccines, so I do think there has been collusion to avoid them for this and other reasons I'm sure I don't fully understand. This pandemic is likely to abate in the US but be present worldwide for many more years. I think that motivates big Pharma. My buddy works for Pfizer, and has told me of this in many instances. Not all of them are life and death, but there are many suitable drugs bypassed all of the time in favor of gaining a patent on a new one. All of the employees for these companies are exempted from having to take the vaccine as I understand. That's quite interesting to me. Like anybody else, I read false sources from time to time, but I haven't seen this repudiated. Also, members of congress are exempted. That's just crazy. Over 200 of our 535 representatives have or are taking Ivermectin. Quite interesting... I'm not going to claim to know it all, but the more you dig, the more you find that this isn't exactly one kumbaya event with everybody working towards the same goal. I think most would love to think that, so they want to shut all conversation down.
Need to highlight that. This drug was discussed after the FDA approval came for the one vaccine.
That and your last thought on congress being exempt, some large unions being exempt (postal employees) makes for very curious science.
Quote: @VikingOracle said:
@ Waterboy said:
@ VikingOracle said:
Anybody watching knows that the woke left will stop at nothing to have full control of our actions.
I am guessing I would be considered part of the "woke left" and I can guarantee you that I do not want to have full control of your actions -- nor do I know anyone in my circle that does. For instance, I believe in gay people should be able to marry another gay person if s/he chooses. I believe a woman should have control over their bodies (but I don't want to debate that here as then we get into my thoughts as to when a soul enters the body). I believe that all races and religions have the right to be treated equally. I also believe in free enterprise which means companies have the freedom to require mandates. So, I think we should stop with broad statements about the left and the right. It really is counterproductive to mending this country. Honestly, I don't believe you and GI are anti-vaccine for the same reasons. We are all individuals but as Americans somewhere, deep in the core, there is commonality -- one we should embrace.
Well, that's where it's funny for me. Those that believe in abortion rights (I'm kind of middle of the road) seem to think it's okay to end another life, but then still think they have the right to tell me that I have to take a jab seem to be totally hypocritical. I can't argue with a lot of things you list above. There's a difference between being woke and being liberal in my opinion, but I'll try to stay clear of the political angle of this.
Quote: @Waterboy said:
@ SFVikeFan said:
Oh and Waterboy, Australia has had 1500 deaths by Covid. Population 25 million.
USA is now over 750,000 deaths, population 330 million.
750,000 deaths vs 1500.
USA has 1 in 440 citizens die from Covid
Australia has 1 in 16,660 citizens die from Covid.
Those are indisputable facts.
Poke fun at their drastic measures, but with 70% of population fully vaccinated they chose to keep their people alive.
We didn't, because rightwing politicians and conspiracy theorists decided they knew better than the medical community, gambled, and lost.
Man, you do better at proving your point than I ever could. Yes, in my life I choose to live life, not hang out in caves. They are sitting out life, and quite honestly its unsustainable. If the US or China did that, life as we know it would come to a grinding halt. Australia and New Zealand aren't exactly World Hubs. lol I think you take a very simplistic view of things. Just my opinion. There's also the fact that 100% of humans die everywhere. Your logic would lead us all to never drive cars as all auto accidents could be avoided. You live your little life out in San Fran that way if you like.  And btw, why did you totally ignore the India angle. Where are your answers for that?
They lifted most of their restrictions last month. We were also under lockouts for a while as well, but stubborn Americans didn't want to take it seriously, so we just prolonged our ability to safely open up.
But yeah, freedom. Whoop whoop.
And you latch onto all kinds of unproven, sketchy, unfounded sources. Like your belief Ivermectin works? Not rooted in fact or science, just emotion.
It's completely dumbfounding that people like you embrace truly experimental, ineffective drugs like Ivermectin that neither doctors nor even the manufacturer recommend, but don't trust the doctors to get a vaccine.
It's YouTube, Facebook over science.
And Sticky is dead right - it is purely an emotional decision at this point, neither a fact or science based one. Base that on the CMO of Washington Regional Med Center in Fayetteville, AR who is a diehard conservative GOP voter who has seen and treated over 10,000 patients during the pandemic who told me the same thing last night at dinner. Stubbornness and stupidity were also part of it.
Quote: @Waterboy said:
All of the employees for these companies are exempted from having to take the vaccine as I understand. That's quite interesting to me. Like anybody else, I read false sources from time to time, but I haven't seen this repudiated.
To assist you on your journey for knowledge (which I believe you truly seek):
BTW, Congress is not "exempt"; simply put Biden could not include Congress in his mandate because of separation of powers. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fact...384930002/. Frankly, I am not sure how Congress would institute a mandate that all members be vaccinated -- would it be subject to a filibuster -- interesting question.
If this thread starts going off topic it will have to be moved. lets keep it about rogers, the nfl, covid, etc.
Quote: @AGRforever said:
@ medaille said:
@ purplefaithful said:
...
I absolutely believe our planet/society are better off with Covid being eradicated and vaccines are the best way to get there.
...
Covid will never be eraticated. Even if everyone on the planet was vaccinated 2x-4x a year or whatever the booster recommendations end up being, the vaccine is still leaky. People will still get sick with Covid, keep spreading the disease and keeping the genepool alive. Then the virus will eventually mutate in a way that the vaccine no longer works.
Furthermore, the vaccine companies are only vaccinating the rich countries and large percentages of the world does not trust the vaccines (or their governments) and won't take them. This ensures that even if one country could theoretically vaccinate with a perfect vaccine their entire population, the virus would evolve in the non-vaccinated population, until it mutates in a way that the vaccine no longer works. Now if you assume that everyone is perfectly willing to get vaccinated, you have to ask the question, is it feasible that the vaccine companies could vaccinate the entire population of the world fast enough to eradicate the disease before it evolves again?
Over time the virus will most likely evolve to be more infectious but less deadly and it will be similar to our normal flu.
Thats not true. Covid-1 burnt itself out in a little more then a year. Its going to take time but Covid-2 will burn itself out at some point. The plumeting rate of infection going into respritory season is a great sign. I’m actully quite optomistic that we’re on the homestretch.
I think we're saying the same thing with different words. Covid-1 was novel, and infected people that had no immune response history to protect them. The people susceptible to this disease got sick and/or died. People became immune to the disease, but it still existed just in lower numbers. Then it mutated into a new form that increased it's infectiousness and found a new population that were susceptible to this new variant. It too will continue to exist. We'll always have people keeping it alive, in the same way that we haven't eradicated the cold or the flu. We'll just live with it, like we do with the cold or the flu. Every so often, we'll get news that the Covid Flu is especially bad this year or whatever because the new variant did something special.
Quote: @VikingOracle said:
@ Waterboy said:
All of the employees for these companies are exempted from having to take the vaccine as I understand. That's quite interesting to me. Like anybody else, I read false sources from time to time, but I haven't seen this repudiated.
To assist you on your journey for knowledge (which I believe you truly seek):
BTW, Congress is not "exempt"; simply put Biden could not include Congress in his mandate because of separation of powers. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fact...384930002/. Frankly, I am not sure how Congress would institute a mandate that all members be vaccinated -- would it be subject to a filibuster -- interesting question.
I think I read an article on Big Pharma not requiring this, but that that had changed. This kind of falls in line with the timing of when I read that. It just really hasn't been a focus of mine, as it has little to do with my beliefs in the vaccine in the big picture.
Quote: @medaille said:
@ AGRforever said:
@ medaille said:
@ purplefaithful said:
...
I absolutely believe our planet/society are better off with Covid being eradicated and vaccines are the best way to get there.
...
Covid will never be eraticated. Even if everyone on the planet was vaccinated 2x-4x a year or whatever the booster recommendations end up being, the vaccine is still leaky. People will still get sick with Covid, keep spreading the disease and keeping the genepool alive. Then the virus will eventually mutate in a way that the vaccine no longer works.
Furthermore, the vaccine companies are only vaccinating the rich countries and large percentages of the world does not trust the vaccines (or their governments) and won't take them. This ensures that even if one country could theoretically vaccinate with a perfect vaccine their entire population, the virus would evolve in the non-vaccinated population, until it mutates in a way that the vaccine no longer works. Now if you assume that everyone is perfectly willing to get vaccinated, you have to ask the question, is it feasible that the vaccine companies could vaccinate the entire population of the world fast enough to eradicate the disease before it evolves again?
Over time the virus will most likely evolve to be more infectious but less deadly and it will be similar to our normal flu.
Thats not true. Covid-1 burnt itself out in a little more then a year. Its going to take time but Covid-2 will burn itself out at some point. The plumeting rate of infection going into respritory season is a great sign. I’m actully quite optomistic that we’re on the homestretch.
I think we're saying the same thing with different words. Covid-1 was novel, and infected people that had no immune response history to protect them. The people susceptible to this disease got sick and/or died. People became immune to the disease, but it still existed just in lower numbers. Then it mutated into a new form that increased it's infectiousness and found a new population that were susceptible to this new variant. It too will continue to exist. We'll always have people keeping it alive, in the same way that we haven't eradicated the cold or the flu. We'll just live with it, like we do with the cold or the flu. Every so often, we'll get news that the Covid Flu is especially bad this year or whatever because the new variant did something special.
I tend to agree with this. Once Covid jumped back to animals, there seemed little chance to eradicate it. Going forward, there will be multiple ways to prevent adverse outcomes (much like the flu). For the most at risk categories, there will be a vaccine or booster, much like the annual flu vaccine that is modified every year (it will be interesting in determining when "Covid season" will be). Then, for the rest of the population, there will be the new oral drugs being approved now when someone shows symptoms -- eventually, they may even be over the counter. There is much to be learned still; I am finding it interesting that there seems to be a 2 month burn out rate for Covid in any particular geographical area for a particular variant. It would be more fascinating if we all didn't have to live it and make decisions about our lives -- a constant risk assessment.
Whooboy, the media is gonna turn on Rodgers now. They hate Kirk for not saying much about his stance, wait til they watch Rodgers on the Pat Mcafee show
Quote: @Waterboy said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ greediron said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ VikingOracle said:
@ Waterboy said:
Hi Waterboy:
I had an epiphany about this discussion last night. I know you are trying to bring your views to the argument but keep in mind that there is only one group that can actually change their course of action at this time -- the unvaccinated such as yourself. I am vaccinated and boosted. Even if I suddenly changed my mind about the efficacy of the vaccine I am still already vaccinated; it is irreversible. So all your arguments, etc., can do no good -- you are only justifying your own decision -- you can't make the vaccinated reverse course. Maybe you feel personally attacked, etc. but really your only response is that you have looked at a whole spectrum of information and your risk assessment is that it is better to remain unvaccinated. While we, the vaccinated, hope we can convince the unvaccinated to modify their course, the unvaccinated can't change the course of the vaccinated because we have already cast off. Please keep in mind also, that we advocate because we think it will potentially save your life and, in comparison, nothing you can write can change what we have irreversibly already done.
Its an eloquent thought, but the unvaccinated aren't getting vaccinated for reasons that are emotional, not logical. They either choose to believe its harmful (which it isn't) or they don't want to be told what to do. It's that simple. 'I'm an American, I won't be forced to do anything!'. Riiiiight. Talk about entitlement. They continue to pivot to new rationale when prior rationale has been debunked.
So I respect the way you are debating, but it's useless. I've learned that during COVID. 58% of this country is vaccinated, its a GD joke. And its taken this long just to get to that number.
How the fuck do you know? Sorry, but that is your emotional opinion, not a logical statement.
I know because I talk to WAY too many people down here in Florida that won't get vaccinated. That's how the fuck I know. There's not a fucking thing to be logical about NOT GETTING VACCINATED.
I don't know how to respond to this other than to say, you need to read a lot more if you think the science is on your side. There's very little emotion in my viewpoint. Since I lost someone very close to me to Covid, the easiest path would be the emotional one to believe the vaccine will rescue all of us. It's clearly not the case, and it looks to be causing a lot of damage along the way, with much (very much) still unknown.
There isnt science on your side. Logic, science, mathmatics, statistics and on and on. Just bullshit you read or watched on the internet.
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