Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ VikingOracle said:
If someone wants to explore the Israel Covid response, I am offering a few articles (I think the New England Journal of Medicine article is very interesting):
I am not going to supply quotes and I tried to choose fairly reputable institutions, just here for the curious (like myself).
You won't change minds, VO...not sure how we ever got here over a vaccine of all things, but here we are.
I know I won't change minds, I just find the subject matter interesting and I am sharing things I find interesting. Israel, to me, is very interesting and I would not have thought (and researched) absent Waterboy mentioning it. Here you have a conservative country that has achieved a high vaccination rate and uses a vaccine passport of sort and it is being identified by Waterboy as proof that the vaccine is not particularly useful. Regardless, Israel is pressing on for even a possible 4th shot. All of this makes me fairly secure to believe Israel strongly approves of the use of the vaccine regardless of whether Waterboy points to Israel as a reason not get vaccinated.
I started watching this last evening
and it's very good. Dr. Fauci is a very smart, dedicated physician
scientist who's been in charge of taking on health crisis like the AIDS
epidemic, SARS outbreak, and others long before he took on this COVID
battle. He's a tough, cool guy from Brooklyn that won't take shit from
anyone, and has a low tolerance for people telling lies publicly about things
he oversees. That explains his issues with the former POTUS and others
attempting to silence him or remove him from the COVID task force.
I highly recommend it.
![[Image: ngdf_fauci_keyart_1080x1600_f8efae49.jpeg]](https://lumiere-a.akamaihd.net/v1/images/ngdf_fauci_keyart_1080x1600_f8efae49.jpeg)
Quote: @VikingOracle said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ VikingOracle said:
If someone wants to explore the Israel Covid response, I am offering a few articles (I think the New England Journal of Medicine article is very interesting):
I am not going to supply quotes and I tried to choose fairly reputable institutions, just here for the curious (like myself).
You won't change minds, VO...not sure how we ever got here over a vaccine of all things, but here we are.
I know I won't change minds, I just find the subject matter interesting and I am sharing things I find interesting. Israel, to me, is very interesting and I would not have thought (and researched) absent Waterboy mentioning it. Here you have a conservative country that has achieved a high vaccination rate and uses a vaccine passport of sort and it is being identified by Waterboy as proof that the vaccine is not particularly useful. Regardless, Israel is pressing on for even a possible 4th shot. All of this makes me fairly secure to believe Israel strongly approves of the use of the vaccine regardless of whether Waterboy points to Israel as a reason not get vaccinated.
I too find the topic worth discussing in a civil manner. My apologies for reacting to your OP so strongly, I do enjoy a discussion with you.
As to Israel, not sure I would call them a conservative country. They have long been very invasive or lacking personal freedoms. Their security approach is understandable given their differences with their neighbors, but it isn't a free society.
I would also argue that pressing onto a 4th shot doesn't show well for the efficacy. Is this the 4th shot in little over a year?
Quote: @HappyViking said:
I started watching this last evening
and it's very good. Dr. Fauci is a very smart, dedicated physician
scientist who's been in charge of taking on health crisis like the AIDS
epidemic, SARS outbreak, and others long before he took on this COVID
battle. He's a tough, cool guy from Brooklyn that won't take shit from
anyone, and has a low tolerance for people telling lies publicly about things
he oversees. That explains his issues with the former POTUS and others
attempting to silence him or remove him from the COVID task force.
I highly recommend it.
hasnt he himself been exposed as the liar, in front of congress no less?
Aaron Rogers heard that by getting vaccinated he would be helping protect his family... and thus wanted nothing to do with it.
:p
Quote: @greediron said:
@ VikingOracle said:
@ StickyBun said:
I know I won't change minds, I just find the subject matter interesting and I am sharing things I find interesting. Israel, to me, is very interesting and I would not have thought (and researched) absent Waterboy mentioning it. Here you have a conservative country that has achieved a high vaccination rate and uses a vaccine passport of sort and it is being identified by Waterboy as proof that the vaccine is not particularly useful. Regardless, Israel is pressing on for even a possible 4th shot. All of this makes me fairly secure to believe Israel strongly approves of the use of the vaccine regardless of whether Waterboy points to Israel as a reason not get vaccinated.
I too find the topic worth discussing in a civil manner. My apologies for reacting to your OP so strongly, I do enjoy a discussion with you.
As to Israel, not sure I would call them a conservative country. They have long been very invasive or lacking personal freedoms. Their security approach is understandable given their differences with their neighbors, but it isn't a free society.
I would also argue that pressing onto a 4th shot doesn't show well for the efficacy. Is this the 4th shot in little over a year?
Hi GI: I think we can both agree that words such as "conservative" and "liberal" are currently loaded terms and you and I probably use such terms in different manners.
Regardless, the fact Israel believes strongly in the vaccine is evident by its actions of getting so many people vaccinated. It does not seem the vaccine is politicized in Israel (though I could be convinced otherwise).
I think efficacy can be seen in 2 ways: (a) how effective it is in prevent contracting the virus or mitigating the virus' worse outcomes and (b) how long before efficacy (a) wanes. These two elements are weighed against: (i) the possible adverse outcomes for you/me if we contract the virus (and the adverse possibility of spreading the virus) and (ii) the possible adverse outcome from taking the vaccine (all vaccines can result in adverse results for particular individuals -- that is why the VAERS was created way back in 1990. Clearly (b) waning efficacy is not great -- I think people expected that once vaccinated we would be all done and that is simply not the case. I posted above about the rabies vaccine (also a virus though transmitted differently). That vaccines needs boosters on a fairly vigorous basis. For other people, there is an additional factor (religion) to be weighed and I can't/won't attack that or try to measure how that factors for an individual.
You can also think about this like tetanus shots (for a particular bacteria infection). Tetanus vaccine is a toxoid vaccine used to prevent tetanus. During childhood, five doses are recommended, with a sixth given during adolescence. After three doses, almost everyone is initially immune, but additional doses every ten years are recommended to maintain immunity. 6+ shots but no one questions its efficacy because of all the other factors involved. I am guessing you have had a tetanus shot in the past decade without thinking about it.
Again, I wish you and your family the best and I hope you chosen course of action keeps you safe. I know one person who has died from COVID, a high school classmate. At the time I got my first shot, he was contracting COVID from his adult daughter who was asymptomatic. I mention this because that is my worse fear, be asymptomatic and passing it on to someone I love.
I found this interesting and thought I would share:
Commonly Used Vaccines and their Method of Production
The vaccines for the following diseases are produced in a morally acceptable way, without
using aborted fetal cell lines:
- diphtheria
- tetanus
- pertussis (whopping cough)
- haemophilus influenza type B (HIB)
- hepatitis B
- influenza
The following list concerns diseases for which vaccines have been produced using aborted
fetal cell lines, and the existence or non-existence of alternative vaccines.
- Disease Vaccine
Adenovirus type 4
and type 7 No trade name [Barr Labs] Produced using aborted fetal cell line
No morally acceptable alternative currently available
- Chickenpox Varivax [Merck] Produced using aborted fetal cell line
No morally acceptable alternative currently available
- Hepatitis A Havrix [GlaxoSmithKline] Produced using aborted fetal cell line
VAQTA [Merck] Produced using aborted fetal cell line
No morally acceptable alternative currently approved for use in the U.S.
- Hepatitis A-B Twinrix [GlaxoSmithKline] Contains Havrix (produced using aborted
fetal cell line) and Engerix B (morally acceptable)
- Measles, Mumps, Rubella
MMR II [Merck] Contains Attenuvax for measles (morally
acceptable), Mumpsvax (morally acceptable), and Meruvax for rubella
(produced using aborted fetal cell line).
No morally acceptable combination is currently produced in the U.S.
Attenuvax and Mumpsvax are no longer available alone
- Polio Poliovax [Sanofi Pasteur] Produced using aborted fetal cell line
Production has been discontinued.
IPOL [Sanofi Pasteur] Morally acceptable alternative
Morally acceptable combination vaccines:
- Kinrix [GlaxoSmithKline] – diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, polio
Pediarix [GlaxoSmithKline] – diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, hepatitis B,
polio
- Rabies Imovax [Sanofi Pasteur] Produced using aborted fetal cell line
RabAvert [Novartis] Morally acceptable alternative
- Shingles Zostavax [Merck] Produced using aborted fetal cell line
SHINGRIX [GlaxoSmithKline] Morally acceptable alternative
- Smallpox Acambis 1000 [Acambis] Produced using aborted fetal cell line
Production discontinued?
ACAM 2000 [Acambis-Baxter] Morally acceptable alternative
I got the Shingles vaccine a couple of weeks ago and it kicked my asz for a couple days afterwards.
Put it off forever, probably too long. Not at all looking forward to the 2nd and final one in 3-4 mos.
My wife got Shingles in her 40's nasty stuff...I have a co-worker who's father got shingles on his face and it spread to his left eye.
He's now had to have 4 different ocular surgeries - ugh, you dont want to mess with that one.
Quote: @VikingOracle said:
@ greediron said:
@ VikingOracle said:
@ StickyBun said:
I know I won't change minds, I just find the subject matter interesting and I am sharing things I find interesting. Israel, to me, is very interesting and I would not have thought (and researched) absent Waterboy mentioning it. Here you have a conservative country that has achieved a high vaccination rate and uses a vaccine passport of sort and it is being identified by Waterboy as proof that the vaccine is not particularly useful. Regardless, Israel is pressing on for even a possible 4th shot. All of this makes me fairly secure to believe Israel strongly approves of the use of the vaccine regardless of whether Waterboy points to Israel as a reason not get vaccinated.
I too find the topic worth discussing in a civil manner. My apologies for reacting to your OP so strongly, I do enjoy a discussion with you.
As to Israel, not sure I would call them a conservative country. They have long been very invasive or lacking personal freedoms. Their security approach is understandable given their differences with their neighbors, but it isn't a free society.
I would also argue that pressing onto a 4th shot doesn't show well for the efficacy. Is this the 4th shot in little over a year?
Hi GI: I think we can both agree that words such as "conservative" and "liberal" are currently loaded terms and you and I probably use such terms in different manners.
Regardless, the fact Israel believes strongly in the vaccine is evident by its actions of getting so many people vaccinated. It does not seem the vaccine is politicized in Israel (though I could be convinced otherwise).
I think efficacy can be seen in 2 ways: (a) how effective it is in prevent contracting the virus or mitigating the virus' worse outcomes and (b) how long before efficacy (a) wanes. These two elements are weighed against: (i) the possible adverse outcomes for you/me if we contract the virus (and the adverse possibility of spreading the virus) and (ii) the possible adverse outcome from taking the vaccine (all vaccines can result in adverse results for particular individuals -- that is why the VAERS was created way back in 1990. Clearly (b) waning efficacy is not great -- I think people expected that once vaccinated we would be all done and that is simply not the case. I posted above about the rabies vaccine (also a virus though transmitted differently). That vaccines needs boosters on a fairly vigorous basis. For other people, there is an additional factor (religion) to be weighed and I can't/won't attack that or try to measure how that factors for an individual.
You can also think about this like tetanus shots (for a particular bacteria infection). Tetanus vaccine is a toxoid vaccine used to prevent tetanus. During childhood, five doses are recommended, with a sixth given during adolescence. After three doses, almost everyone is initially immune, but additional doses every ten years are recommended to maintain immunity. 6+ shots but no one questions its efficacy because of all the other factors involved. I am guessing you have had a tetanus shot in the past decade without thinking about it.
Again, I wish you and your family the best and I hope you chosen course of action keeps you safe. I know one person who has died from COVID, a high school classmate. At the time I got my first shot, he was contracting COVID from his adult daughter who was asymptomatic. I mention this because that is my worse fear, be asymptomatic and passing it on to someone I love.
I did get a tetnus after a nasty elbow in basketball cut my cheek open. But as your other post references, I chose to not get the DTAP as it is from tainted cell lines. So I went with plain old tetnus. And I kinda chuckled at getting a shot without knowing it, I don't get any shots without knowing it. I am kind of a pain that way, I like to know what is going in my body.
It is one of the big factors for not getting the covid vax, the use of aborted fetal cell lines in the production and testing.
And thank you again for your concern. We have lost a close friend to covid recently, so we do know the pain and reality of it. But as we do with all our health decisions, we take it seriously and chose our course of action appropriately. My wife is a medical professional and we have way too much experience in the medical world having 2 kids that have survived cancer.
Quote: @greediron said:
@ VikingOracle said:
@ greediron said:
@ VikingOracle said:
@ StickyBun said:
I know I won't change minds, I just find the subject matter interesting and I am sharing things I find interesting. Israel, to me, is very interesting and I would not have thought (and researched) absent Waterboy mentioning it. Here you have a conservative country that has achieved a high vaccination rate and uses a vaccine passport of sort and it is being identified by Waterboy as proof that the vaccine is not particularly useful. Regardless, Israel is pressing on for even a possible 4th shot. All of this makes me fairly secure to believe Israel strongly approves of the use of the vaccine regardless of whether Waterboy points to Israel as a reason not get vaccinated.
I too find the topic worth discussing in a civil manner. My apologies for reacting to your OP so strongly, I do enjoy a discussion with you.
As to Israel, not sure I would call them a conservative country. They have long been very invasive or lacking personal freedoms. Their security approach is understandable given their differences with their neighbors, but it isn't a free society.
I would also argue that pressing onto a 4th shot doesn't show well for the efficacy. Is this the 4th shot in little over a year?
Hi GI: I think we can both agree that words such as "conservative" and "liberal" are currently loaded terms and you and I probably use such terms in different manners.
Regardless, the fact Israel believes strongly in the vaccine is evident by its actions of getting so many people vaccinated. It does not seem the vaccine is politicized in Israel (though I could be convinced otherwise).
I think efficacy can be seen in 2 ways: (a) how effective it is in prevent contracting the virus or mitigating the virus' worse outcomes and (b) how long before efficacy (a) wanes. These two elements are weighed against: (i) the possible adverse outcomes for you/me if we contract the virus (and the adverse possibility of spreading the virus) and (ii) the possible adverse outcome from taking the vaccine (all vaccines can result in adverse results for particular individuals -- that is why the VAERS was created way back in 1990. Clearly (b) waning efficacy is not great -- I think people expected that once vaccinated we would be all done and that is simply not the case. I posted above about the rabies vaccine (also a virus though transmitted differently). That vaccines needs boosters on a fairly vigorous basis. For other people, there is an additional factor (religion) to be weighed and I can't/won't attack that or try to measure how that factors for an individual.
You can also think about this like tetanus shots (for a particular bacteria infection). Tetanus vaccine is a toxoid vaccine used to prevent tetanus. During childhood, five doses are recommended, with a sixth given during adolescence. After three doses, almost everyone is initially immune, but additional doses every ten years are recommended to maintain immunity. 6+ shots but no one questions its efficacy because of all the other factors involved. I am guessing you have had a tetanus shot in the past decade without thinking about it.
Again, I wish you and your family the best and I hope you chosen course of action keeps you safe. I know one person who has died from COVID, a high school classmate. At the time I got my first shot, he was contracting COVID from his adult daughter who was asymptomatic. I mention this because that is my worse fear, be asymptomatic and passing it on to someone I love.
I did get a tetnus after a nasty elbow in basketball cut my cheek open. But as your other post references, I chose to not get the DTAP as it is from tainted cell lines. So I went with plain old tetnus. And I kinda chuckled at getting a shot without knowing it, I don't get any shots without knowing it. I am kind of a pain that way, I like to know what is going in my body.
It is one of the big factors for not getting the covid vax, the use of aborted fetal cell lines in the production and testing.
And thank you again for your concern. We have lost a close friend to covid recently, so we do know the pain and reality of it. But as we do with all our health decisions, we take it seriously and chose our course of action appropriately. My wife is a medical professional and we have way too much experience in the medical world having 2 kids that have survived cancer.
Hope the kids are doing ok Greed, I'm sorry that they and the family had to experience that - and may still need to be dealing with it...
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