Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ greediron said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ greediron said:
A simple test. How have the defenses ranked with Barr and without Barr?
Maybe a bit simplistic, but it deserves to be asked.
to simplistic, you dont have any where near the same supporting cast last year for Wilson as what Barr played most of his career with. Vigil has a much better line in front of him this year so he is expected to be a bigger impact in run support, its his play in the passing game that has been the nice surprise. I think the runs outside this week were more of a result of the DEs overplaying the pass rush to early.
not as simplistic as saying Wilson is better than Barr :p
Bottom line, Barr meant something to the defense. His importance wasn't found in fan friendly stats.
I showed plenty of stats that have supported my theory, all Barrs supporters have are quotes from people saying hes good. i guess it comes down to do you trust your eyes or your ears more. if you see a duck, its probably a duck, if you hear a duck but cant see one... its probably my damn kid working on his fucking duck calls again at 11 at night.
Eye test, if you see a duck and the predators don't go that way, it probably is one bad SOB duck. Wilson was like a decoy, made lots of tackles cuz they kept coming at him.
Quote: @Hawkvike25 said:
Been saying it for a while...totally ready to move on from Barr. That guy is so slow in coverage and isn't used as a DE enough. If we aren't going to use him like we should then move on.
He doesn't have the hand game to play DE, his weakest attribute as a defender is getting off blocks. If anything I would say his speed in space/coverage is his plus to any scheme.
Quote: @greediron said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ greediron said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ greediron said:
A simple test. How have the defenses ranked with Barr and without Barr?
Maybe a bit simplistic, but it deserves to be asked.
to simplistic, you dont have any where near the same supporting cast last year for Wilson as what Barr played most of his career with. Vigil has a much better line in front of him this year so he is expected to be a bigger impact in run support, its his play in the passing game that has been the nice surprise. I think the runs outside this week were more of a result of the DEs overplaying the pass rush to early.
not as simplistic as saying Wilson is better than Barr :p
Bottom line, Barr meant something to the defense. His importance wasn't found in fan friendly stats.
I showed plenty of stats that have supported my theory, all Barrs supporters have are quotes from people saying hes good. i guess it comes down to do you trust your eyes or your ears more. if you see a duck, its probably a duck, if you hear a duck but cant see one... its probably my damn kid working on his fucking duck calls again at 11 at night.
Eye test, if you see a duck and the predators don't go that way, it probably is one bad SOB duck. Wilson was like a decoy, made lots of tackles cuz they kept coming at him.
And the sacks, forced fumbles, interceptions, and every other statistical category that he matched or bested barrs career best in? In 1 damn season as a starter, behind the worst DL we've had in a decade, Wilson equalled or bested Barr in about every recorded stat for defenders kept.
B) Quack quack.
But according to Zimmer opposing teams scheme to take away Barr thus his lower numbers....still cant figure that out. Maybe he is the equivalent to Mannion on the defense, good in the film room.
I mean all we hear is how other teams attack him, he is so crucial to our scheme, blah blah.
So, is he being doubled? Bracketed? What's holding Barr back from being the stud we all know he's not?
Eric Wilson outperformed Barr last year, sorry. Nick Vigil is probably going to do the same.
I remember out of UCLA he could be this hybrid 3-4 edge defender or SAM in a 4-3. We saw flashes, but seriously a few plays a season?? Dude has spent his entire career getting nominated for Pro Bowls he had no business playing in.
He isn't a bad player, just no desire to be a good one. Either he sucks, or is so totally mis-used, under-used in Zimmer's scheme it's pointless to pay him elite LB money. If he has a bad knee that's going arthritic how the hell does Sugarman and Co. Not recognize that circus from Matt Kalil??
Should have let him walk to the Jets and gotten more FA help. Like a Kicker ...
Quote: @SFVikeFan said:
I mean all we hear is how other teams attack him, he is so crucial to our scheme, blah blah.
So, is he being doubled? Bracketed? What's holding Barr back from being the stud we all know he's not?
Eric Wilson outperformed Barr last year, sorry. Nick Vigil is probably going to do the same.
I remember out of UCLA he could be this hybrid 3-4 edge defender or SAM in a 4-3. We saw flashes, but seriously a few plays a season?? Dude has spent his entire career getting nominated for Pro Bowls he had no business playing in.
He isn't a bad player, just no desire to be a good one. Either he sucks, or is so totally mis-used, under-used in Zimmer's scheme it's pointless to pay him elite LB money. If he has a bad knee that's going arthritic how the hell does Sugarman and Co. Not recognize that circus from Matt Kalil??
Should have let him walk to the Jets and gotten more FA help. Like a Kicker ...
We should have let him go to the Jets, yes. I do think he's incorrectly used. I didnt type what I meant correctly @ JimmyinSD where he shouldnt be used as a DE, but needed to be used more as a blitzing LB because I always see him trailing guys he's covering.
I think it's safe to say Vigil, assuming he plays at this level or close to for the rest of the year, takes his spot moving forward. We will still need another LB and maybe that's the in the draft. The issue with this team is so many guys are on 1 year deals that I fear our entire draft is going to be defensive players, which I find extremely frustrating given our HC is supposed to be a defensive genius.
There's generally consensus on greatness. People see it, recognize it, they don't have to be football numbers nerds to know it. I've never seen a player in 50 years watching the NFL who had so much ink spilled trying to justify his inflated salary, average stats, etc. by telling us all we just don't understand what an amazing secret weapon he is. I wish to God they'd have told him no thanks, go be a Jet.
Well by that thinking, we don't need linemen, they never score, don't gain any yards and just take up space.
Racking up stats because the D stays on the field sucking is a great way to prove how valuable they are. It is like getting lots of offensive rebounds because you brick so many gimmies.
Quote: @greediron said:
Well by that thinking, we don't need linemen, they never score, don't gain any yards and just take up space.
Racking up stats because the D stays on the field sucking is a great way to prove how valuable they are. It is like getting lots of offensive rebounds because you brick so many gimmies.
if Barr gets shitty stats because teams game plan to avoid him... .what does that say about all the other studs in the NFL that put up the big numbers to justify their contracts? do the opposing coaches overlook their abilities and ignore that they can change games almost at will? I dont buy it, other stud LBs get sacks, tackles, picks, forced fumbles, passes defended etc, and they are likely game planned for more than Barr.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ greediron said:
Well by that thinking, we don't need linemen, they never score, don't gain any yards and just take up space.
Racking up stats because the D stays on the field sucking is a great way to prove how valuable they are. It is like getting lots of offensive rebounds because you brick so many gimmies.
if Barr gets shitty stats because teams game plan to avoid him... .what does that say about all the other studs in the NFL that put up the big numbers to justify their contracts? do the opposing coaches overlook their abilities and ignore that they can change games almost at will? I dont buy it, other stud LBs get sacks, tackles, picks, forced fumbles, passes defended etc, and they are likely game planned for more than Barr.
Lots of DBs get huge contracts specifically because teams stay away from them. It isn't a hard concept to imagine, the D performs better with Barr out there. I have seen some claims that Vigil is performing very poorly on run defense. Our stout D line is obviously routing the runners to the edge, and there it breaks down.
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