Zimmer on defense

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@mblack said:

@MaroonBells said:

@kmillard said:
the majority of that front 7 were coveted draft picks by Spelly and Zim, to me it looks like most are not even backup level.

Really? Which of Odenigbo (7th), Johnson (4th), Stephen (7th), Wonnum (rookie 4th), Wilson (UDFA), Lynch (rookie UDFA) and Nickerson (UDFA) were "coveted draft picks." 

Wonnum is a rookie so I can only assume you're referring to maybe Johnson? Because I've heard that criticism before. Johnson sucks! Johnson is a bust! LOL.

Viking fans need to get used to the fact that not all 1st rounders are Justin Jefferson, not all 2nd rounders are Dalvin Cook, not all 3rd rounders are Danielle Hunter...4th Griffen, 5th Diggs, etc. 

4th rounders are typically role players--contributing depth. And that's exactly what Jaleel Johnson is.

Look at the 4th round of the 2017 draft, the year Johnson was taken. 38 players taken in the 4th round, ONE above average starter by my count (Eddie Jackson). And 37 players either out of the NFL or role players like Johnson. 

Go ahead and look at the DTs taken in the 3rd round that year. Nazier Jones, taken by Seattle in the...out of the NFL. Montravius Adams by the Packers, 3 starts in 4 seasons. Eddie Vanderdoes, drafted by the Raiders. Waived a year later. And that's the 3rd round! 

Hell, go to the 2nd round! Dalvin Tomlinson has been OK (7 sacks in 4 seasons). The first DT taken in the draft was Malik McDowell taken 35th overall. That's three picks after the 1st round. Out of the NFL. 

Just some perspective. 

Who picked the players you listed? Weren't they selected as a result of team research and scouting? So if the players suck then the people that picked and or recommended the players should be held responsible. That is their job. The reason they selected the players they did at the positions they did was because that is where they thought the players ranked or how they prioritized their picks. So please I don't buy that excuse. To every player you listed above, I can show a corresponding player that was picked lower that blossomed.
Who said we had to pick DT in round 3? We picked a DT there because that is where we thought the value was.  Alvin Kamara, Kuper Kupp, Chris Goodwin, Kareem Hunt, Shaquille Griffin were all picked in round 3.
1. You can't say the tools you have at your disposal are sub par when you are the one who selected the tools
2. Many teams have found players late in drafts and made them better. Even the Vikings have done that. Again, they had a year to develop the players and build a competitive roster.

What in the wide world of sports are you talking about? You do realize that 6 out of the 7 players were backups forced into action because of injury or an opt out, right? That Odenigbo is starting because Hunter is out. Johnson is starting because Pierce is out. Wonnum is starting because Holmes is out. Wilson moved over to Sam because Barr is out. Lynch and Nickerson starting because Kendricks, Davis and Dye were all out.  
Sure, I guess you can SAY that Odenigbo, Johnson, Lynch and Nickerson should’ve been able to come in and play just as good as the starters who had 7 PRO BOWLS between them, because, hey, the Vikings picked their tools, had their tools at their disposal for a year, and, goddammit, should have been able to turn them into the kind of players Hunter, Pierce, Barr and Kendricks were…but that would be crazy. 

I think we’d be happy if they turned into basic NFL players after a season but it just proves that maybe they never were.  

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@mblack said:

@MaroonBells said:

@kmillard said:
the majority of that front 7 were coveted draft picks by Spelly and Zim, to me it looks like most are not even backup level.

Really? Which of Odenigbo (7th), Johnson (4th), Stephen (7th), Wonnum (rookie 4th), Wilson (UDFA), Lynch (rookie UDFA) and Nickerson (UDFA) were "coveted draft picks." 

Wonnum is a rookie so I can only assume you're referring to maybe Johnson? Because I've heard that criticism before. Johnson sucks! Johnson is a bust! LOL.

Viking fans need to get used to the fact that not all 1st rounders are Justin Jefferson, not all 2nd rounders are Dalvin Cook, not all 3rd rounders are Danielle Hunter...4th Griffen, 5th Diggs, etc. 

4th rounders are typically role players--contributing depth. And that's exactly what Jaleel Johnson is.

Look at the 4th round of the 2017 draft, the year Johnson was taken. 38 players taken in the 4th round, ONE above average starter by my count (Eddie Jackson). And 37 players either out of the NFL or role players like Johnson. 

Go ahead and look at the DTs taken in the 3rd round that year. Nazier Jones, taken by Seattle in the...out of the NFL. Montravius Adams by the Packers, 3 starts in 4 seasons. Eddie Vanderdoes, drafted by the Raiders. Waived a year later. And that's the 3rd round! 

Hell, go to the 2nd round! Dalvin Tomlinson has been OK (7 sacks in 4 seasons). The first DT taken in the draft was Malik McDowell taken 35th overall. That's three picks after the 1st round. Out of the NFL. 

Just some perspective. 

Who picked the players you listed? Weren't they selected as a result of team research and scouting? So if the players suck then the people that picked and or recommended the players should be held responsible. That is their job. The reason they selected the players they did at the positions they did was because that is where they thought the players ranked or how they prioritized their picks. So please I don't buy that excuse. To every player you listed above, I can show a corresponding player that was picked lower that blossomed.
Who said we had to pick DT in round 3? We picked a DT there because that is where we thought the value was.  Alvin Kamara, Kuper Kupp, Chris Goodwin, Kareem Hunt, Shaquille Griffin were all picked in round 3.
1. You can't say the tools you have at your disposal are sub par when you are the one who selected the tools
2. Many teams have found players late in drafts and made them better. Even the Vikings have done that. Again, they had a year to develop the players and build a competitive roster.

What in the wide world of sports are you talking about? You do realize that 6 out of the 7 players were backups forced into action because of injury or an opt out, right? That Odenigbo is starting because Hunter is out. Johnson is starting because Pierce is out. Wonnum is starting because Holmes is out. Wilson moved over to Sam because Barr is out. Lynch and Nickerson starting because Kendricks, Davis and Dye were all out.  
Sure, I guess you can SAY that Odenigbo, Johnson, Lynch and Nickerson should’ve been able to come in and play just as good as the starters who had 7 PRO BOWLS between them, because, hey, the Vikings picked their tools, had their tools at their disposal for a year, and, goddammit, should have been able to turn them into the kind of players Hunter, Pierce, Barr and Kendricks were…but that would be crazy. 

I did not expect them to be like the starters. However saying they are not NFL level players does you no favors. Someone thought they were good enough to be decent back ups. Now we are saying they are not even decent back ups. So again if they were not NFL caliber material why did we pick them and invest in them and prepared them to start. We knew at the early days of the season that Hunter and Peirce were out and they were comfortable with these so called "bad" players as replacements so that was not a surprise to anyone. You can't have it both ways. 

[Guest]

@Vikergirl said:

Some people like him or liked him initially because he seemed like a Bud Grant type of personality and who doesn't like Bud Grant. 

Alan Page.

[Guest]

@comet52 said:

@Vikergirl said:

Some people like him or liked him initially because he seemed like a Bud Grant type of personality and who doesn't like Bud Grant. 

Alan Page.

They brought Zimmer here with a defensive guru reputation. In direct response to Rogers and GB kicking the Vikings butt for a long while. 

I applauded the decision at the time. By 2015? As a fan? I was flying high, head held high and hopeful for future seasons. It doesnt get much better than winning the North @ Lamblow with a young, brash team full of high octane athletes. 




Since then it's been 2 disastrous NFCCG appearances and most recently  2/8 vs the young gun coaches vs our biggest rivals.

Its not just players or coaches, its both. How do you not toss the baby out with the bath water? I dont know, that's RS's job and the Wilfs. 

[Guest]

@IDVikingfan said:

@purplefaithful said:
Ouch...

I know its been a tough year, but I can read into that statement and begin to start concluding things are kinda rotting around there in Eagan. 

Not sure how that endears you to the troops. 

A defense that plays that poorly does not deserve soft selling the debacle, they totally sucked.  I don't believe they would expect anything less.  Coaches better develop a plan that at least attempts to resolve the problems and return some pride in their play.

It smells to me like defection, not publicly taking accountability and throwing players under the bus. I swing back to this is a really crap way to engender trust with your locker room. Makes me question the quality of culture in Eagan. 

This isnt the 1st time Zimmer has thrown players under the bus 

[Guest]

@mblack said:

@MaroonBells said:

@mblack said:

@MaroonBells said:

@kmillard said:
the majority of that front 7 were coveted draft picks by Spelly and Zim, to me it looks like most are not even backup level.

Really? Which of Odenigbo (7th), Johnson (4th), Stephen (7th), Wonnum (rookie 4th), Wilson (UDFA), Lynch (rookie UDFA) and Nickerson (UDFA) were "coveted draft picks." 

Wonnum is a rookie so I can only assume you're referring to maybe Johnson? Because I've heard that criticism before. Johnson sucks! Johnson is a bust! LOL.

Viking fans need to get used to the fact that not all 1st rounders are Justin Jefferson, not all 2nd rounders are Dalvin Cook, not all 3rd rounders are Danielle Hunter...4th Griffen, 5th Diggs, etc. 

4th rounders are typically role players--contributing depth. And that's exactly what Jaleel Johnson is.

Look at the 4th round of the 2017 draft, the year Johnson was taken. 38 players taken in the 4th round, ONE above average starter by my count (Eddie Jackson). And 37 players either out of the NFL or role players like Johnson. 

Go ahead and look at the DTs taken in the 3rd round that year. Nazier Jones, taken by Seattle in the...out of the NFL. Montravius Adams by the Packers, 3 starts in 4 seasons. Eddie Vanderdoes, drafted by the Raiders. Waived a year later. And that's the 3rd round! 

Hell, go to the 2nd round! Dalvin Tomlinson has been OK (7 sacks in 4 seasons). The first DT taken in the draft was Malik McDowell taken 35th overall. That's three picks after the 1st round. Out of the NFL. 

Just some perspective. 

Who picked the players you listed? Weren't they selected as a result of team research and scouting? So if the players suck then the people that picked and or recommended the players should be held responsible. That is their job. The reason they selected the players they did at the positions they did was because that is where they thought the players ranked or how they prioritized their picks. So please I don't buy that excuse. To every player you listed above, I can show a corresponding player that was picked lower that blossomed.
Who said we had to pick DT in round 3? We picked a DT there because that is where we thought the value was.  Alvin Kamara, Kuper Kupp, Chris Goodwin, Kareem Hunt, Shaquille Griffin were all picked in round 3.
1. You can't say the tools you have at your disposal are sub par when you are the one who selected the tools
2. Many teams have found players late in drafts and made them better. Even the Vikings have done that. Again, they had a year to develop the players and build a competitive roster.

What in the wide world of sports are you talking about? You do realize that 6 out of the 7 players were backups forced into action because of injury or an opt out, right? That Odenigbo is starting because Hunter is out. Johnson is starting because Pierce is out. Wonnum is starting because Holmes is out. Wilson moved over to Sam because Barr is out. Lynch and Nickerson starting because Kendricks, Davis and Dye were all out.  
Sure, I guess you can SAY that Odenigbo, Johnson, Lynch and Nickerson should’ve been able to come in and play just as good as the starters who had 7 PRO BOWLS between them, because, hey, the Vikings picked their tools, had their tools at their disposal for a year, and, goddammit, should have been able to turn them into the kind of players Hunter, Pierce, Barr and Kendricks were…but that would be crazy. 

I did not expect them to be like the starters. However saying they are not NFL level players does you no favors. Someone thought they were good enough to be decent back ups. Now we are saying they are not eve 

Look, the truth of the matter is you can sustain an injury here and there and be OK. Among average NFL players, the wins above replacement metric just isn't that high. Further, you can scheme to mitigate weakness. But when 6 of the front 7 are replacement players, things are going to snowball. They just are.

It's shocking to me how angry some of you are that undrafted players couldn't go into New Orleans and stop Alvin Kamara. Did you lose money or something? LOL. You should've read my prediction. I could've saved you a ton of money and heart burn. 

[Guest]

What do people expect without Hunter, Pierce, Barr, Kendricks, Hughes as well as injuries to some of their back-ups? A solid portion of the defense is literally practice squad players and late round role players.

It’s the equivalent to the Bears losing Mack, Hicks, Smith, Travathan, one of their top three corners, plus Josh Woods and the practice squad player that would replace Josh Woods.

Do the Bears look as good on defense starting Daniel McCullers, Trevis Gipson, Joel Iyiegbuniwe, James Vaughters, and Kindle Vildor?

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@mblack said:

@MaroonBells said:

@kmillard said:
the majority of that front 7 were coveted draft picks by Spelly and Zim, to me it looks like most are not even backup level.

Really? Which of Odenigbo (7th), Johnson (4th), Stephen (7th), Wonnum (rookie 4th), Wilson (UDFA), Lynch (rookie UDFA) and Nickerson (UDFA) were "coveted draft picks." 

Wonnum is a rookie so I can only assume you're referring to maybe Johnson? Because I've heard that criticism before. Johnson sucks! Johnson is a bust! LOL.

Viking fans need to get used to the fact that not all 1st rounders are Justin Jefferson, not all 2nd rounders are Dalvin Cook, not all 3rd rounders are Danielle Hunter...4th Griffen, 5th Diggs, etc. 

4th rounders are typically role players--contributing depth. And that's exactly what Jaleel Johnson is.

Look at the 4th round of the 2017 draft, the year Johnson was taken. 38 players taken in the 4th round, ONE above average starter by my count (Eddie Jackson). And 37 players either out of the NFL or role players like Johnson. 

Go ahead and look at the DTs taken in the 3rd round that year. Nazier Jones, taken by Seattle in the...out of the NFL. Montravius Adams by the Packers, 3 starts in 4 seasons. Eddie Vanderdoes, drafted by the Raiders. Waived a year later. And that's the 3rd round! 

Hell, go to the 2nd round! Dalvin Tomlinson has been OK (7 sacks in 4 seasons). The first DT taken in the draft was Malik McDowell taken 35th overall. That's three picks after the 1st round. Out of the NFL. 

Just some perspective. 

Who picked the players you listed? Weren't they selected as a result of team research and scouting? So if the players suck then the people that picked and or recommended the players should be held responsible. That is their job. The reason they selected the players they did at the positions they did was because that is where they thought the players ranked or how they prioritized their picks. So please I don't buy that excuse. To every player you listed above, I can show a corresponding player that was picked lower that blossomed.
Who said we had to pick DT in round 3? We picked a DT there because that is where we thought the value was.  Alvin Kamara, Kuper Kupp, Chris Goodwin, Kareem Hunt, Shaquille Griffin were all picked in round 3.
1. You can't say the tools you have at your disposal are sub par when you are the one who selected the tools
2. Many teams have found players late in drafts and made them better. Even the Vikings have done that. Again, they had a year to develop the players and build a competitive roster.

What in the wide world of sports are you talking about? You do realize that 6 out of the 7 players were backups forced into action because of injury or an opt out, right? That Odenigbo is starting because Hunter is out. Johnson is starting because Pierce is out. Wonnum is starting because Holmes is out. Wilson moved over to Sam because Barr is out. Lynch and Nickerson starting because Kendricks, Davis and Dye were all out.  
Sure, I guess you can SAY that Odenigbo, Johnson, Lynch and Nickerson should’ve been able to come in and play just as good as the starters who had 7 PRO BOWLS between them, because, hey, the Vikings picked their tools, had their tools at their disposal for a year, and, goddammit, should have been able to turn them into the kind of players Hunter, Pierce, Barr and Kendricks were…but that would be crazy. 

OK, there were injuries, but 6 in the front 7? I count Hunter, Pierce, Barr, and Kendricks as experienced veteran starters expected at the beginning of 2020. Yes, tough to have 4 guys hurt, but let's be accurate.

Odenigbo was expected to start, and coming into this season, he was hailed as a Spielman/Zimmer "find", and they had enough confidence in him to let Everson Griffen leave; he was supposed to start opposite Hunter (and then Ngakoue).

Wonnum is starting because they traded Ngakoue away - and whose fault is it for acquiring him without knowing he wouldn't sign an extension and want to stay??

And you're listing Holmes as an injured starter - oh no, they're missing the great Jalyn Holmes?? That's like saying our OL is suffering because Dru Samia got hurt!! Holmes is just another of the draft busts which are all we get any time Spielman trades down to pick up 3rd day picks.

No, they don't have a bunch of 1st-3rd rounders stepping in, but the Zimmer/Spielman combo has been self-proclaimed as building this team by collecting lots of later draft choices and counting on the outstanding coaching staff to polish those rough stones into gems. Of course it doesn't work out EVERY time - but if 1 out of 3, or even 1 out of 4, could become just average NFL players, we would have depth when injuries strike. But the Vikings drafted the most day 3 players of any NFL team between 2011 and 2019, by their own choice. Of those 64 picks, 1, Stefon Diggs, has become a starting NFL player. Shamar Stephen and Odenigbo are the best of the rest.

I don't know if the fault is in the drafting or the coaching/development, or both - but it is not working.

[Guest]

@Jor-El said:

@MaroonBells said:

@mblack said:

@MaroonBells said:

@kmillard said:
the majority of that front 7 were coveted draft picks by Spelly and Zim, to me it looks like most are not even backup level.

Really? Which of Odenigbo (7th), Johnson (4th), Stephen (7th), Wonnum (rookie 4th), Wilson (UDFA), Lynch (rookie UDFA) and Nickerson (UDFA) were "coveted draft picks." 

Wonnum is a rookie so I can only assume you're referring to maybe Johnson? Because I've heard that criticism before. Johnson sucks! Johnson is a bust! LOL.

Viking fans need to get used to the fact that not all 1st rounders are Justin Jefferson, not all 2nd rounders are Dalvin Cook, not all 3rd rounders are Danielle Hunter...4th Griffen, 5th Diggs, etc. 

4th rounders are typically role players--contributing depth. And that's exactly what Jaleel Johnson is.

Look at the 4th round of the 2017 draft, the year Johnson was taken. 38 players taken in the 4th round, ONE above average starter by my count (Eddie Jackson). And 37 players either out of the NFL or role players like Johnson. 

Go ahead and look at the DTs taken in the 3rd round that year. Nazier Jones, taken by Seattle in the...out of the NFL. Montravius Adams by the Packers, 3 starts in 4 seasons. Eddie Vanderdoes, drafted by the Raiders. Waived a year later. And that's the 3rd round! 

Hell, go to the 2nd round! Dalvin Tomlinson has been OK (7 sacks in 4 seasons). The first DT taken in the draft was Malik McDowell taken 35th overall. That's three picks after the 1st round. Out of the NFL. 

Just some perspective. 

Who picked the players you listed? Weren't they selected as a result of team research and scouting? So if the players suck then the people that picked and or recommended the players should be held responsible. That is their job. The reason they selected the players they did at the positions they did was because that is where they thought the players ranked or how they prioritized their picks. So please I don't buy that excuse. To every player you listed above, I can show a corresponding player that was picked lower that blossomed.
Who said we had to pick DT in round 3? We picked a DT there because that is where we thought the value was.  Alvin Kamara, Kuper Kupp, Chris Goodwin, Kareem Hunt, Shaquille Griffin were all picked in round 3.
1. You can't say the tools you have at your disposal are sub par when you are the one who selected the tools
2. Many teams have found players late in drafts and made them better. Even the Vikings have done that. Again, they had a year to develop the players and build a competitive roster.

What in the wide world of sports are you talking about? You do realize that 6 out of the 7 players were backups forced into action because of injury or an opt out, right? That Odenigbo is starting because Hunter is out. Johnson is starting because Pierce is out. Wonnum is starting because Holmes is out. Wilson moved over to Sam because Barr is out. Lynch and Nickerson starting because Kendricks, Davis and Dye were all out.  
Sure, I guess you can SAY that Odenigbo, Johnson, Lynch and Nickerson should’ve been able to come in and play just as good as the starters who had 7 PRO BOWLS between them, because, hey, the Vikings picked their tools, had their tools at their disposal for a year, and, goddammit, should have been able to turn them into the kind of players Hunter, Pierce, Barr and Kendricks were…but that would be crazy. 

OK, there were injuries, but 6 in the front 7? I count Hunter, Pierce, Barr, and Kendricks as experienced veteran starters expected at the beginning of 2020. Yes, tough to have 4 guys hurt, but let's be accurate.

Odenigbo was expected to start, and coming into this season, he was hailed as a Spielman/Zimmer "find", and they had enough confidence in him to let Everson Griffen leave; he was supposed to start opposite Hunter (and then Ngakoue).

Wonnum is starting because they traded Ngakoue away - and whose fault is it for acquiring him without knowing he wouldn't sign an extension and want to stay??

And you're listing Holmes as an injured starter - oh no, they're missing the great Jalyn Holmes?? That's like saying our OL is suffering because Dru Samia got hurt!! Holmes is just another of the draft busts which are all we get any time Spielman trades down to pick up 3rd day picks.

No, they don't have a bunch of 1st-3rd rounders stepping in, but the Zimmer/Spielman combo has been self-proclaimed as building this team by collecting lots of later draft choices and counting on the outstanding coaching staff to polish those rough stones into gems. Of course it doesn't work out EVERY time - but if 1 out of 3, or even 1 out of 4, could become just average NFL players, we would have depth when injuries strike. But the Vikings drafted the most day 3 players of any NFL team between 2011 and 2019, by their own choice. Of those 64 picks, 1, Stefon Diggs, has become a starting NFL player. Shamar Stephen and Odenigbo are the best of the rest.

I don't know if the fault is in the drafting or the coaching/development, or both - but it is not working.

If you want to consider players playing out of position, it's 7 of the 7. Odenigbo was playing in place of Hunter on the left. Yeah, he should be able to play both sides. Stephen in place of Pierce at NT. Yep, he's played it before3, too, but it's not what we signed up for. JJ in place of Stephen at 3T, Wonnum in place of a rotation that should've been Odenigbo and Holmes and/or Yannick, who likely would still be here if Hunter weren't hurt. You could bring in Mata'afa and Watts to rotate in the middle, but there was zero rotation on the edge. That's not sustainable. 

Shall we look at the linebackers? Eric Wilson, our starting WIL was playing out of place at SAM, replacing Barr, Lynch was playing in place of Dye and/or Davis, who would've been playing in place of Kendricks. Leaving Nickerson and Connolley on the weakside. That's not sustainable either. 

Hey, you wanna close your eyes and pretend all that didn't happen, go ahead. 

[Guest]

Odenigbo isn't starting material, and neither is Hercules Mata'afa.....both board favorites. Wonnum might not be either, but I'd like to see him play with Pierce and Hunter on the line. Barr was out and Kendrick's was missed terribly when out. No pressure by the D line puts added pressure on a young secondary. It was a domino effect.