Quote:
I agree for next year for sure which is why we need to sell sell sell, however if things fall right this draft and they are willing to move on from Cousins this year, then we could be ready for a playoff push by 22 and possibly competing for real in 23. I just dont think Spielman is willing to stomach 2 years of struggle though. He will try and make some splash moves that will add a couple wins and screw our draft positions enough to push us down to the next tier of talent and we will be be right back where we were last year, to much talk and not enough walk.
The last major Viking roster rebuild was started in 2011.
It took 4 seasons to return to playoff relevance in 2015.
The wilfs and spielman have never fixed things fast in the past
Until they prove otherwise I expect this rebuild to take until at least 2023.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
this is the Vikings... never bet on them... never bet against them.
Made good money betting on Atlanta vs Vikes.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ mblack said:
Everything points to a coaching and front office overhaul but many don't want to talk about that. We sure can talk around it 
It is also hard for a new regime to inherit a young QB who just got drafted and needs to be developed (I hope in this scenario is also playing well). We can't expect to be as lucky as the Cardinals for a redo.
I agree with Sticky, I dont know that Spielman is out, do we even know if Zimmer was his choice or if he was hand picked by the Wilfs via the big Tuna? I agree though that despite my liking the Zimmer old school approach, I think we need to move on. Zimmer is a defensive genius but if his schemes require the type of talent that he has been given then we need to look elsewhere and focus more on offense and I dont think Zim is the kind of guy that make that commitment.
Rick went to Cincinnati and interviewed him, then they brought him up to Minnesota later. He was a known candidate who'd been turned down by a lot of teams. At the time the story was that he and Rick bonded because they were both coach's sons.
As for Rick, though he has done a decent job how many GMs get to pick coach number 3 ( I am sure he had a say in Frazier), and QB #5 with very little playoff success in said resume? Will be interesting to see how it unfolds.
Quote: @comet52 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
Rick went to Cincinnati and interviewed him, then they brought him up to Minnesota later. He was a known candidate who'd been turned down by a lot of teams. At the time the story was that he and Rick bonded because they were both coach's sons.
Yes, and call it hindsight if you wish, but there were big red flags in Zimmer's selection.
- "Turned down by a lot of teams": For good reason, and not only because he talked rough. Zimmer's biggest qualification was that he had longevity in the coaching circles, but no other team gave him a shot in all that time. Why didn't we consider all the reasons other teams had for not moving him to a Head Coach job? Was it our turn to give him his lifetime award for near-achievement?
- "He and Rick bonded": Why is that a reason to hire a head coach? I know, it happens in hiring, but hiring managers are coached to not hire candidates just because they are similar to yourself. This isn't just for diversity, but to get different qualifications and perspectives. They don't need to be best buddies to work together; in fact, that probably gets in the way of tough decisions.
Quote: @ kmillard said:
As for Rick, though he has done a decent job how many GMs get to pick coach number 3 ( I am sure he had a say in Frazier), and QB #5 with very little playoff success in said resume? Will be interesting to see how it unfolds.
This has always been my contention about Spielman, regardless of how many writers grade him among the top 15 GMs in the league, or how many draft picks of his turn out well (only in the first 3 rounds though). He failed repeatedly at picking QB, which is one of his primary missions. Picking Head Coach is just as high. Applaud him for his ability to draft DEs or CBs, but those aren't core to a team's success.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ comet52 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
Rick went to Cincinnati and interviewed him, then they brought him up to Minnesota later. He was a known candidate who'd been turned down by a lot of teams. At the time the story was that he and Rick bonded because they were both coach's sons.
Yes, and call it hindsight if you wish, but there were big red flags in Zimmer's selection.
- "Turned down by a lot of teams": For good reason, and not only because he talked rough. Zimmer's biggest qualification was that he had longevity in the coaching circles, but no other team gave him a shot in all that time. Why didn't we consider all the reasons other teams had for not moving him to a Head Coach job? Was it our turn to give him his lifetime award for near-achievement?
- "He and Rick bonded": Why is that a reason to hire a head coach? I know, it happens in hiring, but hiring managers are coached to not hire candidates just because they are similar to yourself. This isn't just for diversity, but to get different qualifications and perspectives. They don't need to be best buddies to work together; in fact, that probably gets in the way of tough decisions.
Quote: @ kmillard said:
As for Rick, though he has done a decent job how many GMs get to pick coach number 3 ( I am sure he had a say in Frazier), and QB #5 with very little playoff success in said resume? Will be interesting to see how it unfolds.
This has always been my contention about Spielman, regardless of how many writers grade him among the top 15 GMs in the league, or how many draft picks of his turn out well (only in the first 3 rounds though). He failed repeatedly at picking QB, which is one of his primary missions. Picking Head Coach is just as high. Applaud him for his ability to draft DEs or CBs, but those aren't core to a team's success.
Eventually some info about his getting turned down came to light. It was said he went to interviews and couldn't answer specific questions like who will you hire for your staff. He'd say he'd figure that out after he was hired. Some posters who watch film claim there is a similar lack of prep for some games. He just figures he'll be brilliant during the game, whereas he does put together more specific plans for certain matchups--Aaron Rodgers, playoffs, etc. I think he's a decent DC but that's his ceiling.
As for bonding with Rick, well a lot of hires in this world are based on personal interactions more so than some analysis of a candidate/resume. And I've seen long, analytical hiring processes fail quite spectacularly once the hire is made, in business at least--I don't work in football.
In any case and despite its flaws the hire was better than Chili or Les, two of Zygmunt's very special starry-eyed one interview trigger pulls. But the years it takes for this ownership group to make the smallest incremental progress in their own processes just boggles my mind. They can't take a hard, objective look at themselves to save their lives--if they could we wouldn't be looking at having to eat big contracts for Rick and Zim to bring needed change, along with swallowing the godawful and totally reckless Cousins extension.
Quote: @comet52 said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ comet52 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
Rick went to Cincinnati and interviewed him, then they brought him up to Minnesota later. He was a known candidate who'd been turned down by a lot of teams. At the time the story was that he and Rick bonded because they were both coach's sons.
Yes, and call it hindsight if you wish, but there were big red flags in Zimmer's selection.
- "Turned down by a lot of teams": For good reason, and not only because he talked rough. Zimmer's biggest qualification was that he had longevity in the coaching circles, but no other team gave him a shot in all that time. Why didn't we consider all the reasons other teams had for not moving him to a Head Coach job? Was it our turn to give him his lifetime award for near-achievement?
- "He and Rick bonded": Why is that a reason to hire a head coach? I know, it happens in hiring, but hiring managers are coached to not hire candidates just because they are similar to yourself. This isn't just for diversity, but to get different qualifications and perspectives. They don't need to be best buddies to work together; in fact, that probably gets in the way of tough decisions.
Quote: @ kmillard said:
As for Rick, though he has done a decent job how many GMs get to pick coach number 3 ( I am sure he had a say in Frazier), and QB #5 with very little playoff success in said resume? Will be interesting to see how it unfolds.
This has always been my contention about Spielman, regardless of how many writers grade him among the top 15 GMs in the league, or how many draft picks of his turn out well (only in the first 3 rounds though). He failed repeatedly at picking QB, which is one of his primary missions. Picking Head Coach is just as high. Applaud him for his ability to draft DEs or CBs, but those aren't core to a team's success.
Eventually some info about his getting turned down came to light. It was said he went to interviews and couldn't answer specific questions like who will you hire for your staff. He'd say he'd figure that out after he was hired. Some posters who watch film claim there is a similar lack of prep for some games. He just figures he'll be brilliant during the game, whereas he does put together more specific plans for certain matchups--Aaron Rodgers, playoffs, etc. I think he's a decent DC but that's his ceiling.
As for bonding with Rick, well a lot of hires in this world are based on personal interactions more so than some analysis of a candidate/resume. And I've seen long, analytical hiring processes fail quite spectacularly once the hire is made, in business at least--I don't work in football.
In any case and despite its flaws the hire was better than Chili or Les, two of Zygmunt's very special starry-eyed one interview trigger pulls. But the years it takes for this ownership group to make the smallest incremental progress in their own processes just boggles my mind. They can't take a hard, objective look at themselves to save their lives--if they could we wouldn't be looking at having to eat big contracts for Rick and Zim to bring needed change, along with swallowing the godawful and totally reckless Cousins extension.
My theory about the Wilfs: I think that 5 years ago, they were genuinely excited about winning. They had the new stadium being built, team had an exciting division championship season and near-miss (10-9) playoff game, and I actually think Spielman told them the Vikings would win Super Bowl 52 in their own stadium. That's why they let him trade for Bradford rather than let the "schedule" slide a year or two while they let Bridgewater heal or take longer to find a replacement. They had a specific date to win and built the personnel and payroll for that window.
But the team was trounced by the Eagles in the NFCCG, and they let Spielman sign Cousins, but the 2018 season was a dud, and IMO then the Wilfs did the worst thing that can happen to fans of a pro team: they became disinterested. The team is usually a cash cow, and a great investment that just keeps growing in value, and those are both true whether they win a championship or not. So - why change to chase a championship, especially while Spielman and Zimmer keep the team around .500 every year? Maybe they will feel differently after a horrible season, but maybe they don't care and they will just accept excuses about players getting hurt, no OTAs, it's all going to be better next year...
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ comet52 said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ comet52 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
Rick went to Cincinnati and interviewed him, then they brought him up to Minnesota later. He was a known candidate who'd been turned down by a lot of teams. At the time the story was that he and Rick bonded because they were both coach's sons.
Yes, and call it hindsight if you wish, but there were big red flags in Zimmer's selection.
- "Turned down by a lot of teams": For good reason, and not only because he talked rough. Zimmer's biggest qualification was that he had longevity in the coaching circles, but no other team gave him a shot in all that time. Why didn't we consider all the reasons other teams had for not moving him to a Head Coach job? Was it our turn to give him his lifetime award for near-achievement?
- "He and Rick bonded": Why is that a reason to hire a head coach? I know, it happens in hiring, but hiring managers are coached to not hire candidates just because they are similar to yourself. This isn't just for diversity, but to get different qualifications and perspectives. They don't need to be best buddies to work together; in fact, that probably gets in the way of tough decisions.
Quote: @ kmillard said:
As for Rick, though he has done a decent job how many GMs get to pick coach number 3 ( I am sure he had a say in Frazier), and QB #5 with very little playoff success in said resume? Will be interesting to see how it unfolds.
This has always been my contention about Spielman, regardless of how many writers grade him among the top 15 GMs in the league, or how many draft picks of his turn out well (only in the first 3 rounds though). He failed repeatedly at picking QB, which is one of his primary missions. Picking Head Coach is just as high. Applaud him for his ability to draft DEs or CBs, but those aren't core to a team's success.
Eventually some info about his getting turned down came to light. It was said he went to interviews and couldn't answer specific questions like who will you hire for your staff. He'd say he'd figure that out after he was hired. Some posters who watch film claim there is a similar lack of prep for some games. He just figures he'll be brilliant during the game, whereas he does put together more specific plans for certain matchups--Aaron Rodgers, playoffs, etc. I think he's a decent DC but that's his ceiling.
As for bonding with Rick, well a lot of hires in this world are based on personal interactions more so than some analysis of a candidate/resume. And I've seen long, analytical hiring processes fail quite spectacularly once the hire is made, in business at least--I don't work in football.
In any case and despite its flaws the hire was better than Chili or Les, two of Zygmunt's very special starry-eyed one interview trigger pulls. But the years it takes for this ownership group to make the smallest incremental progress in their own processes just boggles my mind. They can't take a hard, objective look at themselves to save their lives--if they could we wouldn't be looking at having to eat big contracts for Rick and Zim to bring needed change, along with swallowing the godawful and totally reckless Cousins extension.
My theory about the Wilfs: I think that 5 years ago, they were genuinely excited about winning. They had the new stadium being built, team had an exciting division championship season and near-miss (10-9) playoff game, and I actually think Spielman told them the Vikings would win Super Bowl 52 in their own stadium. That's why they let him trade for Bradford rather than let the "schedule" slide a year or two while they let Bridgewater heal or take longer to find a replacement. They had a specific date to win and built the personnel and payroll for that window.
But the team was trounced by the Eagles in the NFCCG, and they let Spielman sign Cousins, but the 2018 season was a dud, and IMO then the Wilfs did the worst thing that can happen to fans of a pro team: they became disinterested. The team is usually a cash cow, and a great investment that just keeps growing in value, and those are both true whether they win a championship or not. So - why change to chase a championship, especially while Spielman and Zimmer keep the team around .500 every year? Maybe they will feel differently after a horrible season, but maybe they don't care and they will just accept excuses about players getting hurt, no OTAs, it's all going to be better next year...
Hard to know what the reality is with those guys. I will say they are fans, I remember the film of Zygmunt trying to jump into the player pile in the locker room after a win which struck me as kinda over the top embarrassing even for a fan-boy owner. But regardless, I have no idea what they think at this point. My speculation is they believe their own b.s. or maybe just Spielman's b.s.?
Thing is I've never thought of them as these by-the-book hands off owners waiting for their g.m. to produce a title. They didn't even have a g.m. for 7 years and they made the hires and fires themselves. I think part of the over the top fanboy bit is wanting to be that fantasy football owner who makes moves, plays g.m., etc. like Jerry Jones and they were doing it until they realized what a hopeless mess they were making so they promoted Rick. So what's their move now that Rick has made a hopeless mess?
Whatever changes are made or not made this winter will tell us a lot about whether we have any hope, or will be getting more of the same shortsighted moves out of TCO. My guess has been they will put out the usual p.r. about tough year, we believe in Rick/Mike, etc. They are short revenue from the pandemic and the new hotel that is probably empty and I'm guessing they don't want to eat a lot of contract dough. Besides, the team is stuck with Kirk, it might make sense to just let Rick/Mike suck for another year while they pile up draft stock then fire them both. Who knows.
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