Quote: @BigAl99 said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ BigAl99 said:
I wish I could be a good boy, too, but just to many scars from the Nun's to not react. They taught me to know a theocracy and those who profess it.
I was raised in the bright and sunny light of devout Catholic parents: so fun! Every mass a joy to behold! Born sinner! Confession hilarity! Hypocrisy abounds!
Don't get me started: nothing worse than a former Catholic (me) as far as pissing in everyone's cornflakes. I'm like a former smoker that way.
So many stories, all cliche, but still funny to tell. Parochial school, could recite the liturgy in Latin, French and English by the time I was five. Love being call an atheist, by someone denying being theocratic. Franciscans, Jesuits and Nun's, OH MY!
Who called you an atheist? I didn't. Also, I'm not really sure that you DO know what "theocratic" means.
Quote: @pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
Fair enough. But, again: going back to the analogy I used about your biography... if you wrote one thing in your book... and then someone else said that you wrote something completely different: who's right? Which "interpretation" is the right one: the one that actually repeats what you, yourself said... or the one that rejects the "literal" words you wrote, in favor of their own, personal interpretation? I think most rational people would take you at your word and "interpret" your book to mean what you actually wrote.
Both. Someone might, in fact probably would, read my biography and discover things about me that I'm not even aware of. The Bible's like that.
If you're going to take the position that, by my interpretations of the Bible, I am going to teach God about Himself... I'm just going to have to disagree.
But God didn't write the Bible. Humans did. Moses did, along with Isaiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul and Mary (that was a joke). And many of them contradict each other. By reading it, I can tell you things about each. When we write or communicate in any way, we expose things about ourselves that even we aren't aware of. That's Intro to lit 101.
If God did write it, He sure contradicts Himself a lot.
Quote: @pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
...and guess what? That person might be right. And you might be wrong. I still find it impossible to accept that Jews, for example, among others, who have spent their entire lives dedicated to serving God and their communities are going to burn in endless fires of hell with no hope of death.
Put away your bible and think about that for a bit and what does your gut tell you? Your God-given intellect? Tells me that pastor might be right. You may not like that... or agree with it... but that IS what the Bible says. And the Bible is the source for orthodox (correct) teachings (not my feelings or my gut).
Ever consider the possibility that you might be wrong? I know, crazy, right? Probably something you’ve never even once considered. But imagine when you go to meet your maker, he stops you at the gate and says “Dude, what in the name of ME were you thinking!!??” You weren’t supposed to take that stuff literally, numb nuts!! The Bible is just another jar of clay; it was not meant to be this inerrant book of magic!
I was sent by my Father to bring a message of love and compassion and hope and salvation and forgiveness to the world….and you twisted it to justify supporting all kinds ridiculous things, from torture to putting children in cages. And this Trump support? Dick move, man. This is a world leader more evil than Haman and more corrupt than Herod. And why did you do it?? Because…abortion? Pumpf, buddy, of course I’m pro-life, but I mention helping the poor 407 times in the gospels; I mentioned abortion not once. Zero. Zilch. Nulla. You really should’ve paid more attention in Sunday school.
Oh…one more thing…..C’mon, you really thought I, Jesus of Nazareth, would be for supply side economics???? LOL. Peter! Get him the H-E-double hockey sticks outta here! Next!
By discussing this in terms of "right" and "wrong", you seem to be acknowledging that there is such a thing (when it comes to interpreting the Bible). So, let me ask you a question (which I hope you will answer): how can ANYONE know what is "right" and "wrong"?
There isn't. That's my whole point. I'm just challenging your seeming lack of any doubt. Doubt is not only human and normal, it's important. That's my problem with modern evangelicalism. It encourages the suppression of doubts and discourages the multiplicity of understandings. And if you ask me, it's one of the biggest reasons people are leaving the church in droves. Well, that, and a astonishingly hypocritical support of a profoundly immoral man.
From the former editor-in-chief of Christianity Today: "It’s easy to recognize the ongoing destruction of respect for professed evangelical Christians and their leaders. They’ve earned it by disregarding all the beautiful teachings of Christianity about love and kindness toward others to support a cruel, hateful demagogue who intentionally divides us against each other."
I really think you guys have lost your way.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
...and guess what? That person might be right. And you might be wrong. I still find it impossible to accept that Jews, for example, among others, who have spent their entire lives dedicated to serving God and their communities are going to burn in endless fires of hell with no hope of death.
Put away your bible and think about that for a bit and what does your gut tell you? Your God-given intellect? Tells me that pastor might be right. You may not like that... or agree with it... but that IS what the Bible says. And the Bible is the source for orthodox (correct) teachings (not my feelings or my gut).
Ever consider the possibility that you might be wrong? I know, crazy, right? Probably something you’ve never even once considered. But imagine when you go to meet your maker, he stops you at the gate and says “Dude, what in the name of ME were you thinking!!??” You weren’t supposed to take that stuff literally, numb nuts!! The Bible is just another jar of clay; it was not meant to be this inerrant book of magic!
I was sent by my Father to bring a message of love and compassion and hope and salvation and forgiveness to the world….and you twisted it to justify supporting all kinds ridiculous things, from torture to putting children in cages. And this Trump support? Dick move, man. This is a world leader more evil than Haman and more corrupt than Herod. And why did you do it?? Because…abortion? Pumpf, buddy, of course I’m pro-life, but I mention helping the poor 407 times in the gospels; I mentioned abortion not once. Zero. Zilch. Nulla. You really should’ve paid more attention in Sunday school.
Oh…one more thing…..C’mon, you really thought I, Jesus of Nazareth, would be for supply side economics???? LOL. Peter! Get him the H-E-double hockey sticks outta here! Next!
By discussing this in terms of "right" and "wrong", you seem to be acknowledging that there is such a thing (when it comes to interpreting the Bible). So, let me ask you a question (which I hope you will answer): how can ANYONE know what is "right" and "wrong"?
There isn't. That's my whole point. I'm just challenging your seeming lack of any doubt. Doubt is not only human and normal, it's important. That's my problem with modern evangelicalism. It encourages the suppression of doubts and discourages the multiplicity of understandings. And if you ask me, it's one of the biggest reasons people are leaving the church in droves. Well, that, and a astonishingly hypocritical support of a profoundly immoral man.
From the former editor-in-chief of Christianity Today: "It’s easy to recognize the ongoing destruction of respect for professed evangelical Christians and their leaders. They’ve earned it by disregarding all the beautiful teachings of Christianity about love and kindness toward others to support a cruel, hateful demagogue who intentionally divides us against each other."
I really think you guys have lost your way.
And speaking of division, I ran across this last night. This is Donald Trump after the George Floyd murde...
In this difficult day, in this difficult time for the United States, it is perhaps well to ask what kind of a nation we are and what direction we want to move in. For those of you who are black--considering the evidence there evidently is that there were white people who were responsible--you can be filled with bitterness, with hatred, and a desire for revenge. We can move in that direction as a country, in great polarization--black people amongst black, white people amongst white, filled with hatred toward one another.
Or we can make an effort, as Martin Luther King did, to understand and to comprehend, and to replace that violence, that stain of bloodshed that has spread across our land, with an effort to understand with compassion and love.
For those of you who are black and are tempted to be filled with hatred and distrust at the injustice of such an act, against all white people, I can only say that I feel in my own heart the same kind of feeling....
What we need in the United States is not division; what we need in the United States is not hatred; what we need in the United States is not violence or lawlessness; but love and wisdom, and compassion toward one another, and a feeling of justice toward those who still suffer within our country, whether they be white or they be black...
We can do well in this country. We will have difficult times; we've had difficult times in the past; we will have difficult times in the future. It is not the end of violence; it is not the end of lawlessness; it is not the end of disorder.
But the vast majority of white people and the vast majority of black people in this country want to live together, want to improve the quality of our life, and want justice for all human beings who abide in our land.
Let us dedicate ourselves to what the Greeks wrote so many years ago: to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world.
Let us dedicate ourselves to that, and say a prayer for our country and for our people.
Just kidding. This was spoken by Robert F. Kennedy the day that Marin Luther King was murdered. Donald Trump isn't capable of anything like this. Remember when presidents (or in this case, a presidential candidate) were good men? With the eloquence and leadership to calm the divide and change the mood of an entire nation in a 5 minute speech?
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
...and guess what? That person might be right. And you might be wrong. I still find it impossible to accept that Jews, for example, among others, who have spent their entire lives dedicated to serving God and their communities are going to burn in endless fires of hell with no hope of death.
Put away your bible and think about that for a bit and what does your gut tell you? Your God-given intellect? Tells me that pastor might be right. You may not like that... or agree with it... but that IS what the Bible says. And the Bible is the source for orthodox (correct) teachings (not my feelings or my gut).
Ever consider the possibility that you might be wrong? I know, crazy, right? Probably something you’ve never even once considered. But imagine when you go to meet your maker, he stops you at the gate and says “Dude, what in the name of ME were you thinking!!??” You weren’t supposed to take that stuff literally, numb nuts!! The Bible is just another jar of clay; it was not meant to be this inerrant book of magic!
I was sent by my Father to bring a message of love and compassion and hope and salvation and forgiveness to the world….and you twisted it to justify supporting all kinds ridiculous things, from torture to putting children in cages. And this Trump support? Dick move, man. This is a world leader more evil than Haman and more corrupt than Herod. And why did you do it?? Because…abortion? Pumpf, buddy, of course I’m pro-life, but I mention helping the poor 407 times in the gospels; I mentioned abortion not once. Zero. Zilch. Nulla. You really should’ve paid more attention in Sunday school.
Oh…one more thing…..C’mon, you really thought I, Jesus of Nazareth, would be for supply side economics???? LOL. Peter! Get him the H-E-double hockey sticks outta here! Next!
By discussing this in terms of "right" and "wrong", you seem to be acknowledging that there is such a thing (when it comes to interpreting the Bible). So, let me ask you a question (which I hope you will answer): how can ANYONE know what is "right" and "wrong"?
There isn't. That's my whole point. I'm just challenging your seeming lack of any doubt. Doubt is not only human and normal, it's important. That's my problem with modern evangelicalism. It encourages the suppression of doubts and discourages the multiplicity of understandings. And if you ask me, it's one of the biggest reasons people are leaving the church in droves. Well, that, and a astonishingly hypocritical support of a profoundly immoral man.
From the former editor-in-chief of Christianity Today: "It’s easy to recognize the ongoing destruction of respect for professed evangelical Christians and their leaders. They’ve earned it by disregarding all the beautiful teachings of Christianity about love and kindness toward others to support a cruel, hateful demagogue who intentionally divides us against each other."
I really think you guys have lost your way.
Just kidding. This was spoken by Robert F. Kennedy the day that Marin Luther King was murdered. Donald Trump isn't capable of anything like this. Remember when presidents (or in this case, a presidential candidate) were good men? With the eloquence and leadership to calm the divide and change the mood of an entire nation in a 5 minute speech?
I laughed. The thought of Trump saying anything in the zip code of eloquence is hilarious. Thanks for the laugh.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
Fair enough. But, again: going back to the analogy I used about your biography... if you wrote one thing in your book... and then someone else said that you wrote something completely different: who's right? Which "interpretation" is the right one: the one that actually repeats what you, yourself said... or the one that rejects the "literal" words you wrote, in favor of their own, personal interpretation? I think most rational people would take you at your word and "interpret" your book to mean what you actually wrote.
Both. Someone might, in fact probably would, read my biography and discover things about me that I'm not even aware of. The Bible's like that.
If you're going to take the position that, by my interpretations of the Bible, I am going to teach God about Himself... I'm just going to have to disagree.
But God didn't write the Bible. Humans did. Moses did, along with Isaiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul and Mary (that was a joke). And many of them contradict each other. By reading it, I can tell you things about each. When we write or communicate in any way, we expose things about ourselves that even we aren't aware of. That's Intro to lit 101.
If God did write it, He sure contradicts Himself a lot.
God authored it; He inspired them to write what they wrote. That has been the doctrine of the orthodox church for over 2000 years. It's based on the inherent testimony of those who wrote it: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" (2 Tim. 3:16) and "For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." Now, you're certainly free to reject that doctrine; but it IS (and always has been) one of the basic tenets of Christianity (up until the rise of "liberal theology" in the 20th century).
Secondly, If God didn't really "write" (author) the Bible... then what's the point in believing any of it? Any (or all) of it could simply be the figment of some men's imaginations (a position that lots of people in our world take). If a person really does believe that it is simply a product of men, without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, then what is their "faith" founded on? It would seem to me that they might as well make their own golden calf and worship it, since they are creating their own religion anyway. How can anyone believe Jesus' claim to be "the Truth" (along with the Way and the Life), if His Words can't be trusted to really be His? That would be like trying to use a ruler... that doesn't have any markings on it. How can any Christian doctrine be trusted- or believed with confidence- if it's all just the opinions and utterances of fallible men?
Finally: could you share some examples of texts where you think that the Bible contradicts itself? And, please, don't just "google" it; after all: this is what you believe about the Bible. I haven't had to "google" any of this stuff, since I know what I believe- and why I believe it. If you have to "look up" your concerns, it would make it seem like you were simply parroting something that you heard (and agreed with), rather than something that you actually knew and believed.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
There isn't. That's my whole point. I'm just challenging your seeming lack of any doubt. Doubt is not only human and normal, it's important. That's my problem with modern evangelicalism. It encourages the suppression of doubts and discourages the multiplicity of understandings. And if you ask me, it's one of the biggest reasons people are leaving the church in droves. Well, that, and a astonishingly hypocritical support of a profoundly immoral man.
From the former editor-in-chief of Christianity Today: "It’s easy to recognize the ongoing destruction of respect for professed evangelical Christians and their leaders. They’ve earned it by disregarding all the beautiful teachings of Christianity about love and kindness toward others to support a cruel, hateful demagogue who intentionally divides us against each other."
I really think you guys have lost your way.
Do you doubt that 2+2 = 4? According to you, you should... since it's normal and important. What about your wife's love for you (assuming that you have a wife who has professed her love for you)? That being said, I'm not discouraging anyone from "doubting". I'm discouraging them from refusing to seek the answer. You seem to think that because SOME things can't be known with certainty... then NOTHING can (a typical Post-Modern position). If a person has questions- or doubts- about ANYTHING... what should they do about it? Should they just live the rest of their lives in a shroud of doubt? Or should they try to find out the answer? When it comes to "doctrine" (theology), God TELLS us the answers to our questions (at least for the questions that matter... as opposed to ones like, "Can God make a burrito so spicy that even He couldn't eat it?)... if we're willing to listen to Him.
Guess which denomination is losing members faster than- pretty much- anyone else? It's the ELCA. And they are espousing the very theological viewpoints that you are. By the way, I don't think I addressed your comment about "the poor" yet. Yes, the Bible is chocked full of commands to care for the poor (and the oppressed, the widows and the orphans). But can you find me ANY Bible passages that tell Christians to help the poor... indirectly, through the government? I can't think of any. Of course, it's funny that you would raise that point: since even the NYT admits that "conservatives" are more generous towards helping the poor than liberals are. https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opini...istof.html (I DID have to google that link because, although I had previously read it, I didn't memorize the web address)
Quote: @pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
There isn't. That's my whole point. I'm just challenging your seeming lack of any doubt. Doubt is not only human and normal, it's important. That's my problem with modern evangelicalism. It encourages the suppression of doubts and discourages the multiplicity of understandings. And if you ask me, it's one of the biggest reasons people are leaving the church in droves. Well, that, and a astonishingly hypocritical support of a profoundly immoral man.
From the former editor-in-chief of Christianity Today: "It’s easy to recognize the ongoing destruction of respect for professed evangelical Christians and their leaders. They’ve earned it by disregarding all the beautiful teachings of Christianity about love and kindness toward others to support a cruel, hateful demagogue who intentionally divides us against each other."
I really think you guys have lost your way.
Do you doubt that 2+2 = 4? According to you, you should... since it's normal and important. What about your wife's love for you (assuming that you have a wife who has professed her love for you)? That being said, I'm not discouraging anyone from "doubting". I'm discouraging them from refusing to seek the answer. You seem to think that because SOME things can't be known with certainty... then NOTHING can (a typical Post-Modern position). If a person has questions- or doubts- about ANYTHING... what should they do about it? Should they just live the rest of their lives in a shroud of doubt? Or should they try to find out the answer? When it comes to "doctrine" (theology), God TELLS us the answers to our questions (at least for the questions that matter... as opposed to ones like, "Can God make a burrito so spicy that even He couldn't eat it?)... if we're willing to listen to Him.
Guess which denomination is losing members faster than- pretty much- anyone else? It's the ELCA. And they are espousing the very theological viewpoints that you are. By the way, I don't think I addressed your comment about "the poor" yet. Yes, the Bible is chocked full of commands to care for the poor (and the oppressed, the widows and the orphans). But can you find me ANY Bible passages that tell Christians to help the poor... indirectly, through the government? I can't think of any. Of course, it's funny that you would raise that point: since even the NYT admits that "conservatives" are more generous towards helping the poor than liberals are. https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opini...istof.html (I DID have to google that link because, although I had previously read it, I didn't memorize the web address)
God's command to care for the poor does not care what we do for a living. Whether we're a poet, a priest or a politician, makes no difference. The command is the same for us all.
And, yes, we've had this debate about who gives more to charity about a hundred times. It's a nebulous and silly argument. You are correct that some polls have indicated that conservatives give more to the poor, but ONLY when you consider tithing "charity." None of this includes volunteer work or activism of any kind. Nor does it factor in the fact that most liberals believe, as i do, that extreme poverty and disease is not something that can be impacted in the slightest by individuals or even churches, only by governments, and so we support leaders who favor aid programs.
You should feel pretty good about this. You can turn away from the diseased and impoverished and know that a man you voted for (W) is credited with saving over 10M lives through his PEPFAR program. Is this something you would support? Would any Trump supporter? Of course not. Trump is a conman who uses the Bible as a prop, but I believe Bush reads the same Bible as you.
Anti-Semitism
I was always under the belief that one of the real reasons for it (outside of the Jewish faith being seen as the modern society) was that the Jews had the opportunity to be close to Jesus, to love him, to accept his words, touch the Nazarene and didn’t. They spat on him, rejected him, laughed at him, repudiated him.
The Passion of the Christ depicted this emotional anger clearly.
I can’t think of bigger reason of the history of anti-semitism (From the Christian faith) than this.
Quote: @pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
Fair enough. But, again: going back to the analogy I used about your biography... if you wrote one thing in your book... and then someone else said that you wrote something completely different: who's right? Which "interpretation" is the right one: the one that actually repeats what you, yourself said... or the one that rejects the "literal" words you wrote, in favor of their own, personal interpretation? I think most rational people would take you at your word and "interpret" your book to mean what you actually wrote.
Both. Someone might, in fact probably would, read my biography and discover things about me that I'm not even aware of. The Bible's like that.
If you're going to take the position that, by my interpretations of the Bible, I am going to teach God about Himself... I'm just going to have to disagree.
But God didn't write the Bible. Humans did. Moses did, along with Isaiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul and Mary (that was a joke). And many of them contradict each other. By reading it, I can tell you things about each. When we write or communicate in any way, we expose things about ourselves that even we aren't aware of. That's Intro to lit 101.
If God did write it, He sure contradicts Himself a lot.
God authored it; He inspired them to write what they wrote. That has been the doctrine of the orthodox church for over 2000 years. It's based on the inherent testimony of those who wrote it: " All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" (2 Tim. 3:16) and " For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." Now, you're certainly free to reject that doctrine; but it IS (and always has been) one of the basic tenets of Christianity (up until the rise of "liberal theology" in the 20th century).
"Scripture" in that verse is an English translation. The original Greek text uses the word "Graphis" which means "Writings." This means it doesn't have to be scripture that leads you to God. You should read this. I like how he ends it:
"God’s Spirit uses anything, and everything, to communicate Truth to us in everyday our life. This is the Word of God which is living and active and sharper than a two-edged sword. It’s not a Book. It’s the living Spirit of Christ. Christ is not bound by any book, or held captive by any religious text. Neither are you."
Regarding contradictions, I find it hard to believe you're not aware of them. There are hundreds. Just Google "Bible contradictions." I expect a counter to all of them by morning.
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