Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ pumpf said:
The most basic (and honest) answer is this: there are only 2 kinds of people in the world- those who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ... and those who are "enemies of the Cross". If you believe that the Bible is true, God's Word makes it clear that Satan will use anything he can to attack- and deceive- the Church. Ultimately, he is behind every attack against Christians. So, why would Satan "attack" Muslims... or the ELCA... or any other unbeliever, for that matter... since they are already doing his work for him?
ELCA....some time when I stop by and am not in a hurry you will need to explain the differences in all the Lutheran churches to me, by the way tell your son I was sorry to hear that he was losing his first year of college football, that has to really suck for him and have him feeling pretty low.
For the sake of Al, I'll go ahead and explain it now. There are- basically- 2 "branches" of Lutheranism in America: those who believe that the Bible is "all true"... and those who believe that only "some" of it is true. Now, among the "all true" branches, there are the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), the Wisconsin Synod (WELS)... and some smaller, lesser-known denominations. Among the "some of it is true" branches of Lutheranism, the main denomination is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA). Because they have determined that the Bible is the produce of fallible, prejudiced men, they have taken the position of authority "over" Scripture (the power to decide- for themselves- which passages they agree with and will follow vs. those that they don't agree with and reject).
LOL. This just DRIPS in sneering bitterness and judgement. If only they had all the answers like you, Pumpf.
Debate the facts not the poster. If you want to refute the post then provide substance of your own to back it up please.
Jesus, Jimmy...do you realize he just called an entire doctrine the anti-Christ? Try to play fair, K?
Quote: @BigAl99 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ pumpf said:
The most basic (and honest) answer is this: there are only 2 kinds of people in the world- those who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ... and those who are "enemies of the Cross". If you believe that the Bible is true, God's Word makes it clear that Satan will use anything he can to attack- and deceive- the Church. Ultimately, he is behind every attack against Christians. So, why would Satan "attack" Muslims... or the ELCA... or any other unbeliever, for that matter... since they are already doing his work for him?
ELCA....some time when I stop by and am not in a hurry you will need to explain the differences in all the Lutheran churches to me, by the way tell your son I was sorry to hear that he was losing his first year of college football, that has to really suck for him and have him feeling pretty low.
For the sake of Al, I'll go ahead and explain it now. There are- basically- 2 "branches" of Lutheranism in America: those who believe that the Bible is "all true"... and those who believe that only "some" of it is true. Now, among the "all true" branches, there are the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), the Wisconsin Synod (WELS)... and some smaller, lesser-known denominations. Among the "some of it is true" branches of Lutheranism, the main denomination is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA). Because they have determined that the Bible is the produce of fallible, prejudiced men, they have taken the position of authority "over" Scripture (the power to decide- for themselves- which passages they agree with and will follow vs. those that they don't agree with and reject).
LOL. This just DRIPS in sneering bitterness and judgement. If only they had all the answers like you, Pumpf.
Debate the facts not the poster. If you want to refute the post then provide substance of your own to back it up please.
What fact's, he talking faith and religion.
Hes quoting scripture, if anybody wants to refute his passages then do so, but Pumpf is not the target, find counter points of scripture to refute his position if you want, but he is not the debatable subject here.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ pumpf said:
The most basic (and honest) answer is this: there are only 2 kinds of people in the world- those who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ... and those who are "enemies of the Cross". If you believe that the Bible is true, God's Word makes it clear that Satan will use anything he can to attack- and deceive- the Church. Ultimately, he is behind every attack against Christians. So, why would Satan "attack" Muslims... or the ELCA... or any other unbeliever, for that matter... since they are already doing his work for him?
ELCA....some time when I stop by and am not in a hurry you will need to explain the differences in all the Lutheran churches to me, by the way tell your son I was sorry to hear that he was losing his first year of college football, that has to really suck for him and have him feeling pretty low.
For the sake of Al, I'll go ahead and explain it now. There are- basically- 2 "branches" of Lutheranism in America: those who believe that the Bible is "all true"... and those who believe that only "some" of it is true. Now, among the "all true" branches, there are the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), the Wisconsin Synod (WELS)... and some smaller, lesser-known denominations. Among the "some of it is true" branches of Lutheranism, the main denomination is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA). Because they have determined that the Bible is the produce of fallible, prejudiced men, they have taken the position of authority "over" Scripture (the power to decide- for themselves- which passages they agree with and will follow vs. those that they don't agree with and reject).
LOL. This just DRIPS in sneering bitterness and judgement. If only they had all the answers like you, Pumpf.
Debate the facts not the poster. If you want to refute the post then provide substance of your own to back it up please.
Jesus, Jimmy...do you realize he just called an entire doctrine the anti-Christ? Try to play fair, K?
So find counter points to his claim. Other posters are not what this board is about. If you cant or wont, then walk away. There is no rule that we have to take every topic to the edge and beyond, but we do have a rule about making responses personal.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ pumpf said:
The most basic (and honest) answer is this: there are only 2 kinds of people in the world- those who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ... and those who are "enemies of the Cross". If you believe that the Bible is true, God's Word makes it clear that Satan will use anything he can to attack- and deceive- the Church. Ultimately, he is behind every attack against Christians. So, why would Satan "attack" Muslims... or the ELCA... or any other unbeliever, for that matter... since they are already doing his work for him?
ELCA....some time when I stop by and am not in a hurry you will need to explain the differences in all the Lutheran churches to me, by the way tell your son I was sorry to hear that he was losing his first year of college football, that has to really suck for him and have him feeling pretty low.
For the sake of Al, I'll go ahead and explain it now. There are- basically- 2 "branches" of Lutheranism in America: those who believe that the Bible is "all true"... and those who believe that only "some" of it is true. Now, among the "all true" branches, there are the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), the Wisconsin Synod (WELS)... and some smaller, lesser-known denominations. Among the "some of it is true" branches of Lutheranism, the main denomination is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA). Because they have determined that the Bible is the produce of fallible, prejudiced men, they have taken the position of authority "over" Scripture (the power to decide- for themselves- which passages they agree with and will follow vs. those that they don't agree with and reject).
LOL. This just DRIPS in sneering bitterness and judgement. If only they had all the answers like you, Pumpf.
Debate the facts not the poster. If you want to refute the post then provide substance of your own to back it up please.
Jesus, Jimmy...do you realize he just called an entire doctrine the anti-Christ? Try to play fair, K?
So find counter points to his claim. Other posters are not what this board is about. If you cant or wont, then walk away. There is no rule that we have to take every topic to the edge and beyond, but we do have a rule about making responses personal.
Wow... I call him judgmental; he calls 3 million ELCA members who simply disagree with him, the "AntiChrist"….and I’m the one who’s out of line. I'm not ELCA but I'd be pretty pissed off if I were.
You should know you can't debate anything with a Biblical literalist. Instead of having the humility and grace to state their belief is based on their own personal interpretation of the Bible, they say, basically, this is what the Bible says, as if there is only one interpretation of it: theirs. When there are, in fact, thousands.
It's why people over the centuries who read the exact same book have disagreed with almost everything in it...from slavery and transubstantiation to ordination policy and baptism.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ BigAl99 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ pumpf said:
The most basic (and honest) answer is this: there are only 2 kinds of people in the world- those who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ... and those who are "enemies of the Cross". If you believe that the Bible is true, God's Word makes it clear that Satan will use anything he can to attack- and deceive- the Church. Ultimately, he is behind every attack against Christians. So, why would Satan "attack" Muslims... or the ELCA... or any other unbeliever, for that matter... since they are already doing his work for him?
ELCA....some time when I stop by and am not in a hurry you will need to explain the differences in all the Lutheran churches to me, by the way tell your son I was sorry to hear that he was losing his first year of college football, that has to really suck for him and have him feeling pretty low.
For the sake of Al, I'll go ahead and explain it now. There are- basically- 2 "branches" of Lutheranism in America: those who believe that the Bible is "all true"... and those who believe that only "some" of it is true. Now, among the "all true" branches, there are the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), the Wisconsin Synod (WELS)... and some smaller, lesser-known denominations. Among the "some of it is true" branches of Lutheranism, the main denomination is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA). Because they have determined that the Bible is the produce of fallible, prejudiced men, they have taken the position of authority "over" Scripture (the power to decide- for themselves- which passages they agree with and will follow vs. those that they don't agree with and reject).
LOL. This just DRIPS in sneering bitterness and judgement. If only they had all the answers like you, Pumpf.
Debate the facts not the poster. If you want to refute the post then provide substance of your own to back it up please.
What fact's, he talking faith and religion.
Hes quoting scripture, if anybody wants to refute his passages then do so, but Pumpf is not the target, find counter points of scripture to refute his position if you want, but he is not the debatable subject here.
Just like Fred Phelp's and his scripture quoting. Like I said, Have a good day
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ pumpf said:
The most basic (and honest) answer is this: there are only 2 kinds of people in the world- those who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ... and those who are "enemies of the Cross". If you believe that the Bible is true, God's Word makes it clear that Satan will use anything he can to attack- and deceive- the Church. Ultimately, he is behind every attack against Christians. So, why would Satan "attack" Muslims... or the ELCA... or any other unbeliever, for that matter... since they are already doing his work for him?
ELCA....some time when I stop by and am not in a hurry you will need to explain the differences in all the Lutheran churches to me, by the way tell your son I was sorry to hear that he was losing his first year of college football, that has to really suck for him and have him feeling pretty low.
For the sake of Al, I'll go ahead and explain it now. There are- basically- 2 "branches" of Lutheranism in America: those who believe that the Bible is "all true"... and those who believe that only "some" of it is true. Now, among the "all true" branches, there are the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), the Wisconsin Synod (WELS)... and some smaller, lesser-known denominations. Among the "some of it is true" branches of Lutheranism, the main denomination is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA). Because they have determined that the Bible is the produce of fallible, prejudiced men, they have taken the position of authority "over" Scripture (the power to decide- for themselves- which passages they agree with and will follow vs. those that they don't agree with and reject).
LOL. This just DRIPS in sneering bitterness and judgement. If only they had all the answers like you, Pumpf.
I spent the FIRST 40 years of my life in the Lutheran church with most in the LCA and ELCA. What is taught by the ELCA today is far different than what I was taught in Catechism class and Sundays in sermons. Pumpf has accurately depicted the current beliefs of the ELCA which are contrary to traditional biblical teaching. For example, one ELCA document I read describes Jesus as bearing our sins in his womb. Is it wrong and judgemental to point out error? Clearly not.
Quote: @BigAl99 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ pumpf said:
The most basic (and honest) answer is this: there are only 2 kinds of people in the world- those who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ... and those who are "enemies of the Cross". If you believe that the Bible is true, God's Word makes it clear that Satan will use anything he can to attack- and deceive- the Church. Ultimately, he is behind every attack against Christians. So, why would Satan "attack" Muslims... or the ELCA... or any other unbeliever, for that matter... since they are already doing his work for him?
ELCA....some time when I stop by and am not in a hurry you will need to explain the differences in all the Lutheran churches to me, by the way tell your son I was sorry to hear that he was losing his first year of college football, that has to really suck for him and have him feeling pretty low.
For the sake of Al, I'll go ahead and explain it now. There are- basically- 2 "branches" of Lutheranism in America: those who believe that the Bible is "all true"... and those who believe that only "some" of it is true. Now, among the "all true" branches, there are the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), the Wisconsin Synod (WELS)... and some smaller, lesser-known denominations. Among the "some of it is true" branches of Lutheranism, the main denomination is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA). Because they have determined that the Bible is the produce of fallible, prejudiced men, they have taken the position of authority "over" Scripture (the power to decide- for themselves- which passages they agree with and will follow vs. those that they don't agree with and reject).
LOL. This just DRIPS in sneering bitterness and judgement. If only they had all the answers like you, Pumpf.
Debate the facts not the poster. If you want to refute the post then provide substance of your own to back it up please.
What fact's, he talking faith and religion.
Not debating the veracity of their claims; just telling you what they are... and then what the Bible has to say about it. Again, I'm not (in this thread) claiming that the Bible IS true; I'm only stating what it says about the antichrist.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ pumpf said:
The most basic (and honest) answer is this: there are only 2 kinds of people in the world- those who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ... and those who are "enemies of the Cross". If you believe that the Bible is true, God's Word makes it clear that Satan will use anything he can to attack- and deceive- the Church. Ultimately, he is behind every attack against Christians. So, why would Satan "attack" Muslims... or the ELCA... or any other unbeliever, for that matter... since they are already doing his work for him?
ELCA....some time when I stop by and am not in a hurry you will need to explain the differences in all the Lutheran churches to me, by the way tell your son I was sorry to hear that he was losing his first year of college football, that has to really suck for him and have him feeling pretty low.
For the sake of Al, I'll go ahead and explain it now. There are- basically- 2 "branches" of Lutheranism in America: those who believe that the Bible is "all true"... and those who believe that only "some" of it is true. Now, among the "all true" branches, there are the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), the Wisconsin Synod (WELS)... and some smaller, lesser-known denominations. Among the "some of it is true" branches of Lutheranism, the main denomination is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA). Because they have determined that the Bible is the produce of fallible, prejudiced men, they have taken the position of authority "over" Scripture (the power to decide- for themselves- which passages they agree with and will follow vs. those that they don't agree with and reject).
LOL. This just DRIPS in sneering bitterness and judgement. If only they had all the answers like you, Pumpf.
Debate the facts not the poster. If you want to refute the post then provide substance of your own to back it up please.
Jesus, Jimmy...do you realize he just called an entire doctrine the anti-Christ? Try to play fair, K?
I'm simply telling you what the Bible says. The Bible declares that there will be many antichrists... and then it identifies the "marks" of it: false "religion" that appears to be serving Christ... but which, actually, is pulling people away from Him. By the way, I'm sure that there are folks who attend ELCA churches who are not aware of their synod's teachings... and wouldn't believe it if they did. I'm not saying that anyone who attends an ELCA church (or even those who- wrongly- believe in the Historical Critical method of hermeneutics) is the antichrist. But that synod is... and all its leaders who are- intentionally- leading people astray. I suppose that you may find offense it that... which, I suppose, could be likened to saying that all Trump voters are morons and racists. But since you don't seem to have a problem with THAT statement, I'm confused why you would take offense at my comment.
Quote: @IDVikingfan said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ pumpf said:
The most basic (and honest) answer is this: there are only 2 kinds of people in the world- those who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ... and those who are "enemies of the Cross". If you believe that the Bible is true, God's Word makes it clear that Satan will use anything he can to attack- and deceive- the Church. Ultimately, he is behind every attack against Christians. So, why would Satan "attack" Muslims... or the ELCA... or any other unbeliever, for that matter... since they are already doing his work for him?
ELCA....some time when I stop by and am not in a hurry you will need to explain the differences in all the Lutheran churches to me, by the way tell your son I was sorry to hear that he was losing his first year of college football, that has to really suck for him and have him feeling pretty low.
For the sake of Al, I'll go ahead and explain it now. There are- basically- 2 "branches" of Lutheranism in America: those who believe that the Bible is "all true"... and those who believe that only "some" of it is true. Now, among the "all true" branches, there are the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), the Wisconsin Synod (WELS)... and some smaller, lesser-known denominations. Among the "some of it is true" branches of Lutheranism, the main denomination is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA). Because they have determined that the Bible is the produce of fallible, prejudiced men, they have taken the position of authority "over" Scripture (the power to decide- for themselves- which passages they agree with and will follow vs. those that they don't agree with and reject).
LOL. This just DRIPS in sneering bitterness and judgement. If only they had all the answers like you, Pumpf.
I spent the FIRST 40 years of my life in the Lutheran church with most in the LCA and ELCA. What is taught by the ELCA today is far different than what I was taught in Catechism class and Sundays in sermons.
Yep, I'll bet it is. The Baptist church I grew up in was far different than the one around these days. But you can stretch that fondness for the past, traditionalism, fundamentalism a long ways. How far do you take it? To the church you grew up in? Or the one I did? Puritanism? Where we burned women at the stake? The pre-Luther church who burned heretics (scientists) who dared disagree with them? Mosaic Law that not only supported slavery, but advocated their beating.
Some would argue that progress is a good thing.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ pumpf said:
The most basic (and honest) answer is this: there are only 2 kinds of people in the world- those who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ... and those who are "enemies of the Cross". If you believe that the Bible is true, God's Word makes it clear that Satan will use anything he can to attack- and deceive- the Church. Ultimately, he is behind every attack against Christians. So, why would Satan "attack" Muslims... or the ELCA... or any other unbeliever, for that matter... since they are already doing his work for him?
ELCA....some time when I stop by and am not in a hurry you will need to explain the differences in all the Lutheran churches to me, by the way tell your son I was sorry to hear that he was losing his first year of college football, that has to really suck for him and have him feeling pretty low.
For the sake of Al, I'll go ahead and explain it now. There are- basically- 2 "branches" of Lutheranism in America: those who believe that the Bible is "all true"... and those who believe that only "some" of it is true. Now, among the "all true" branches, there are the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), the Wisconsin Synod (WELS)... and some smaller, lesser-known denominations. Among the "some of it is true" branches of Lutheranism, the main denomination is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA). Because they have determined that the Bible is the produce of fallible, prejudiced men, they have taken the position of authority "over" Scripture (the power to decide- for themselves- which passages they agree with and will follow vs. those that they don't agree with and reject).
LOL. This just DRIPS in sneering bitterness and judgement. If only they had all the answers like you, Pumpf.
Debate the facts not the poster. If you want to refute the post then provide substance of your own to back it up please.
Jesus, Jimmy...do you realize he just called an entire doctrine the anti-Christ? Try to play fair, K?
So find counter points to his claim. Other posters are not what this board is about. If you cant or wont, then walk away. There is no rule that we have to take every topic to the edge and beyond, but we do have a rule about making responses personal.
Wow... I call him judgmental; he calls 3 million ELCA members who simply disagree with him, the "AntiChrist"….and I’m the one who’s out of line. I'm not ELCA but I'd be pretty pissed off if I were.
You should know you can't debate anything with a Biblical literalist. Instead of having the humility and grace to state their belief is based on their own personal interpretation of the Bible, they say, basically, this is what the Bible says, as if there is only one interpretation of it: theirs. When there are, in fact, thousands.
It's why people over the centuries who read the exact same book have disagreed with almost everything in it...from slavery and transubstantiation to ordination policy and baptism.
I'm not the one who is twisting the Bible to fit my personal beliefs. The orthodox doctrines of Scripture were well established by the Council of Nicea. From that point on, it became a matter of defending orthodoxy against heretics. I'm not declaring anything that was not considered to be the orthodox Christian faith for nearly 2000 years. As I said, the members of the ELCA aren't the antichrist. But they are being led by "him". And I stand by that statement. You're right, you can't debate anything a Biblical literalist... because truth is black and white. Satan was the one who tried to introduce the gray by asking, "Did God really say...?"
While it's true that there are many interpretations of the Bible, that doesn't mean that they are all equally valid. Just like there can be many interpretations of the any other book, including the dictionary. But the existence of myriad interpretations doesn't mean that there really ARE various, equally valid interpretations. If you were to write a book and say that your favorite team was the Vikings... would I be free to tell others that you actually liked the Packers? No, because that wouldn't agree with what you actually wrote. And even if I hid behind the Post-Modern mantra of "there is no truth" and defended my statement by declaring that "Well, that's how I interpret Maroon's book", that STILL wouldn't make it true.
To conclude... you're right: various people have "read" the same book and disagreed on its interpretation. But for nearly 2000 years, there were some basic principles of orthodoxy that were universally agreed upon. Just because a person disagrees with orthodoxy, that doesn't make their opinion equally valid. One of the biggest departures from orthodoxy has been the rise of "personal spirituality", which says that "how I feel" should trump "what IT says". People are free to believe whatever they want. They can worship any god they like. But... if they are going to say that they base their beliefs on the Bible, then that changes things. Now (having said that) their "faith" can no longer be "personal" but, instead, becomes objective: since it is formed and shaped by what God, Himself, says in His Word. If He says, "black"... then that's what it is... no matter how much someone else might want it to say, "white"... or even "gray".
If you want to debate what the Bible says- and how YOU think it should be interpreted- we can have that discussion. I'm always willing to converse with people.
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