Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ TBro said:
@ FSUVike said:
If you told me I could get Jefferson or Ruggs at #22, Jones at #25 and a 3T in the 2nd I'd be all over that. Otherwise, the depth of this Class would seem to indicate that the best value is in the 3rd.
It's so easy to want one of the guys with true #1 WR potential, though. Adam isn't getting any younger. Guys like Pittman, Johnson, Ceephus et al profile more as #2 guys IMO. Which means you're looking for another again in a few years
Of course, Lamb, Juedy, Ruggs and Jefferson may all very well be gone by #22 rendering it a moot point. Will be fascinating to see how many runs on certain position types happen this year. Do all the Tackles go early, artificially moving someone up like Jackson or Cleveland in the process? Will the same happen at Receiver? Or will guys slide? Going to be a fun watch.
I know we just lost Diggs, but I really have no interest in the Vikings addressing that position in the first round until our Oline, Dline, and CB positions get taken care of. To me, especially if they extend Cook, this needs to happen first. If anything, Diggs proves we can find WR talent in the middle to late rounds of the draft and with this year's WR depth, I'm willing to take that gamble to prioritize the trenches and fill the void left by losing 5 DB's , our Nose Tackle, and our Right DE to Free Agency.
Wow. They hit on Diggs in the 5th and exactly nothing with every other Spielman pick accept sorta Jerius Wright and you believe Rick can find another one in the same mid to late Round range? Good luck with that
You're going to need 10 seconds worth of pass protection per play this year. Diggs took the top off of Defenses with his vertical route running and his home run ability. Adam's best use is not running vertical routes nor is he a home run threat on quick hitters.
There is currently no deep ball threat on this Roster. Double Thielen, stack the box to stop Cook. Easy as pie. Smith, Bisi, Sharpe and Rudy are not deep threats. Waiting until the later rounds to find one, with Rick's track record for finding Receivers, which is actually pretty bad except for Diggs and Thielen, neither of which was even expected to Start as Rookies, is a recipe for disaster, IMO.
A lot of GM's have also done a lot worse then Spelly finding WR's in very early, mid, and late rounds. I wonder if anyone could do a comparison over the years by position and by GM? I think we can all agree Spelly's worst unit would be OL. Bradberry and O'Neil are bending the trend but it has taken waaay to long. I want our sites set on interior OL and DL early in this draft.
Quote: @TBro said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ TBro said:
@ FSUVike said:
If you told me I could get Jefferson or Ruggs at #22, Jones at #25 and a 3T in the 2nd I'd be all over that. Otherwise, the depth of this Class would seem to indicate that the best value is in the 3rd.
It's so easy to want one of the guys with true #1 WR potential, though. Adam isn't getting any younger. Guys like Pittman, Johnson, Ceephus et al profile more as #2 guys IMO. Which means you're looking for another again in a few years
Of course, Lamb, Juedy, Ruggs and Jefferson may all very well be gone by #22 rendering it a moot point. Will be fascinating to see how many runs on certain position types happen this year. Do all the Tackles go early, artificially moving someone up like Jackson or Cleveland in the process? Will the same happen at Receiver? Or will guys slide? Going to be a fun watch.
I know we just lost Diggs, but I really have no interest in the Vikings addressing that position in the first round until our Oline, Dline, and CB positions get taken care of. To me, especially if they extend Cook, this needs to happen first. If anything, Diggs proves we can find WR talent in the middle to late rounds of the draft and with this year's WR depth, I'm willing to take that gamble to prioritize the trenches and fill the void left by losing 5 DB's , our Nose Tackle, and our Right DE to Free Agency.
Wow. They hit on Diggs in the 5th and exactly nothing with every other Spielman pick accept sorta Jerius Wright and you believe Rick can find another one in the same mid to late Round range? Good luck with that
You're going to need 10 seconds worth of pass protection per play this year. Diggs took the top off of Defenses with his vertical route running and his home run ability. Adam's best use is not running vertical routes nor is he a home run threat on quick hitters.
There is currently no deep ball threat on this Roster. Double Thielen, stack the box to stop Cook. Easy as pie. Smith, Bisi, Sharpe and Rudy are not deep threats. Waiting until the later rounds to find one, with Rick's track record for finding Receivers, which is actually pretty bad except for Diggs and Thielen, neither of which was even expected to Start as Rookies, is a recipe for disaster, IMO.
I would hop on this take. Is it possible they find another late round gem? Sure. But no way in heck would they be putting all of their eggs in that basket. If they knew Diggs would be the player he developed into they would have taken him before MyCole Pruitt and T.J. Clemmings. Nobody will call it luck, but its an educated guess based on scouting. Thielen would fall into the same category, but I give AT a lot more credit for his own self-development.
If you took ever single asset (maybe even more) and traded up for Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs and knew for fact they'd have a similar impact its an easy decision. Simply because they net neutral on assets and saved $9M against the cap per season for the next 4 years.
I'm not suggesting we wait until the 5th round to address our need at WR, I was just pointing out that example. Diggs was an amazing find. With a deep class this year, I would rather address both lines and our DB needs with those first round picks and come back in the 2nd or 3rd to add WR talent. Unless Lamb, Jeudy, or Ruggs falls to us at 22, none of these other WR's that are getting first round hype at our draft position are worthy to be taken that high IMO. I see a lot of mocks giving us Jefferson or Mims at 22 with some really good defensive talent like Epenesa, Chaisson, T. Diggs, getting pushed down the board. There are plenty of second Tier WR's we could get in the second or third that wouldn't be a huge drop off in talent with how deep this class is. For a team that wants to feature Cook and had to trade Diggs because he wasn't happy with his role in the passing game, why do we want to invest a first round pick in these overhyped receivers who aren't even ranked in the overall top 32? We lost 5 DB's including 3 starters. With some of the updated Mocks I'm seeing and the defensive talent available, I would take Espenesa at 22, and come back with Tre Diggs at 25 and be thrilled with the value we got. By the way, T. Diggs can also fill our Punt Returner role.
You and I evaluate talent far differently. Epenesa has like 2 pass rush moves at best and many project that he might end up inside as a 3T instead. And yet, for all that he is generally considered a better prospect than Chaisson. Diggs is not a true 1st Round CB. Talent is there, performance isn't. After Okuda and Henderson there really isn't 1 CB that has elevated himself above the rest.
Jefferson is far more polished of a route runner than Mims. And he's interchangeable between Slot and Outside, which helps Thielen. I think there's a Big 4 at WR, not just the 3 guys.
And Geoff already did a fantastic breakdown of what a complete and utter fallacy it is to say you don't need 2 good WRs in a Kubiak led Offense that is run first. Let alone the fact that he had 2 thousand yard Receivers on his Super Bowl team. Or the fact that there is ZERO deep threat on this Roster right now that can take the top off of a Defense and force to not stack the box to stop Cook and double Thielen.
Now, the better value may well be in the 3rd for WR. Just like CB.
I think the smart play is the one Geoff already mentioned. Use 22 and some ammo to move up for Wirfs or Kinlaw. Fix the trenches first by adding a true Blue Chip Player. All this talk about trading down or standing pat means you're trying to plug every hole with 'pretty good' players. That's the kind of thinking that will keep this team in 9-7 purgatory.
The reality is that the team is not going to fill every single hole this offseason. So start by adding a virtual can't-miss guy. Then use 25 to trade back to plug a few more holes and/or move some ammo to next year.
Coming out of this Draft I want to know either LT or 3T is fixed for years to come. Not hope that one of those spots is filled with lesser talent.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ TBro said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ TBro said:
@ FSUVike said:
If you told me I could get Jefferson or Ruggs at #22, Jones at #25 and a 3T in the 2nd I'd be all over that. Otherwise, the depth of this Class would seem to indicate that the best value is in the 3rd.
It's so easy to want one of the guys with true #1 WR potential, though. Adam isn't getting any younger. Guys like Pittman, Johnson, Ceephus et al profile more as #2 guys IMO. Which means you're looking for another again in a few years
Of course, Lamb, Juedy, Ruggs and Jefferson may all very well be gone by #22 rendering it a moot point. Will be fascinating to see how many runs on certain position types happen this year. Do all the Tackles go early, artificially moving someone up like Jackson or Cleveland in the process? Will the same happen at Receiver? Or will guys slide? Going to be a fun watch.
I know we just lost Diggs, but I really have no interest in the Vikings addressing that position in the first round until our Oline, Dline, and CB positions get taken care of. To me, especially if they extend Cook, this needs to happen first. If anything, Diggs proves we can find WR talent in the middle to late rounds of the draft and with this year's WR depth, I'm willing to take that gamble to prioritize the trenches and fill the void left by losing 5 DB's , our Nose Tackle, and our Right DE to Free Agency.
Wow. They hit on Diggs in the 5th and exactly nothing with every other Spielman pick accept sorta Jerius Wright and you believe Rick can find another one in the same mid to late Round range? Good luck with that
You're going to need 10 seconds worth of pass protection per play this year. Diggs took the top off of Defenses with his vertical route running and his home run ability. Adam's best use is not running vertical routes nor is he a home run threat on quick hitters.
There is currently no deep ball threat on this Roster. Double Thielen, stack the box to stop Cook. Easy as pie. Smith, Bisi, Sharpe and Rudy are not deep threats. Waiting until the later rounds to find one, with Rick's track record for finding Receivers, which is actually pretty bad except for Diggs and Thielen, neither of which was even expected to Start as Rookies, is a recipe for disaster, IMO.
I would hop on this take. Is it possible they find another late round gem? Sure. But no way in heck would they be putting all of their eggs in that basket. If they knew Diggs would be the player he developed into they would have taken him before MyCole Pruitt and T.J. Clemmings. Nobody will call it luck, but its an educated guess based on scouting. Thielen would fall into the same category, but I give AT a lot more credit for his own self-development.
If you took ever single asset (maybe even more) and traded up for Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs and knew for fact they'd have a similar impact its an easy decision. Simply because they net neutral on assets and saved $9M against the cap per season for the next 4 years.
I'm not suggesting we wait until the 5th round to address our need at WR, I was just pointing out that example. Diggs was an amazing find. With a deep class this year, I would rather address both lines and our DB needs with those first round picks and come back in the 2nd or 3rd to add WR talent. Unless Lamb, Jeudy, or Ruggs falls to us at 22, none of these other WR's that are getting first round hype at our draft position are worthy to be taken that high IMO. I see a lot of mocks giving us Jefferson or Mims at 22 with some really good defensive talent like Epenesa, Chaisson, T. Diggs, getting pushed down the board. There are plenty of second Tier WR's we could get in the second or third that wouldn't be a huge drop off in talent with how deep this class is. For a team that wants to feature Cook and had to trade Diggs because he wasn't happy with his role in the passing game, why do we want to invest a first round pick in these overhyped receivers who aren't even ranked in the overall top 32? We lost 5 DB's including 3 starters. With some of the updated Mocks I'm seeing and the defensive talent available, I would take Espenesa at 22, and come back with Tre Diggs at 25 and be thrilled with the value we got. By the way, T. Diggs can also fill our Punt Returner role.
You and I evaluate talent far differently. Epenesa has like 2 pass rush moves at best and many project that he might end up inside as a 3T instead. And yet, for all that he is generally considered a better prospect than Chaisson. Diggs is not a true 1st Round CB. Talent is there, performance isn't. After Okuda and Henderson there really isn't 1 CB that has elevated himself above the rest.
Jefferson is far more polished of a route runner than Mims. And he's interchangeable between Slot and Outside, which helps Thielen. I think there's a Big 4 at WR, not just the 3 guys.
And Geoff already did a fantastic breakdown of what a complete and utter fallacy it is to say you don't need 2 good WRs in a Kubiak led Offense that is run first. Let alone the fact that he had 2 thousand yard Receivers on his Super Bowl team. Or the fact that there is ZERO deep threat on this Roster right now that can take the top off of a Defense and force to not stack the box to stop Cook and double Thielen.
Now, the better value may well be in the 3rd for WR. Just like CB.
I think the smart play is the one Geoff already mentioned. Use 22 and some ammo to move up for Wirfs or Kinlaw. Fix the trenches first by adding a true Blue Chip Player. All this talk about trading down or standing pat means you're trying to plug every hole with 'pretty good' players. That's the kind of thinking that will keep this team in 9-7 purgatory.
The reality is that the team is not going to fill every single hole this offseason. So start by adding a virtual can't-miss guy. Then use 25 to trade back to plug a few more holes and/or move some ammo to next year.
Coming out of this Draft I want to know either LT or 3T is fixed for years to come. Not hope that one of those spots is filled with lesser talent.
I love the idea of moving up from 22 and back from 25. I bet Indy would be a great candidate for a 25 for 34 and 44 swap. Maybe we throw in a mid round pick to finalize. Keeping our original 2nd, but moving our 3rd would give us
13 - DT
34 - WR/OL
44 - CB
50 - DE
Plus we would still have a comp 3rd for BPA. 4 picks in the first 50 with a talented class would be nice. If you hit like you did in 15 on picks, the team is a playoff contender this year, and a SB contender for years to come after moving out a lot of the heavy cost (Griff, Xavier, Tres, Linval)
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
If it is me, I am trading a 3rd this year and a conditional pick in 2021 (4th) for Trent Williams.
Reiff would get released.
I would trade UP to go get Ruggs III. You cannot teach 4.29 speed.
That would open up a lot of underneath routes.
why would you cut arguably the second best OL on your team? why not look to move him inside or trade him, LTs dont grow on trees and Reiff is pretty affordable for what he does. cutting him is pretty short sighted IMO.
I would love to see them trade him but I am not even going to try and speculate who would want him.
If I get Williams then I do not want to pay Reiff what he is getting and absorb that cap hit to find out IF he can play left guard which he has not done in over a decade.
I'm kind of funny in that I like players who actually played the position recently.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
If it is me, I am trading a 3rd this year and a conditional pick in 2021 (4th) for Trent Williams.
Reiff would get released.
I would trade UP to go get Ruggs III. You cannot teach 4.29 speed.
That would open up a lot of underneath routes.
That is a lot to pay for Trent Williams and if you want Ruggs I'm thinking you need to get up to #10 which would be very expensive. Getting to #13-15 probably makes a bit more sense.
If you want to get something really good then you have to pay. A 3rd could be another Pat Elflein or Scott Crichton or Danielle Hunter.
A 4th could be another TJ Clemmings, Willie Beavers, Jalyn Holmes, etc.
Missing out on those kinds of players to get Williams is OK by me.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ TBro said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ TBro said:
@ FSUVike said:
If you told me I could get Jefferson or Ruggs at #22, Jones at #25 and a 3T in the 2nd I'd be all over that. Otherwise, the depth of this Class would seem to indicate that the best value is in the 3rd.
It's so easy to want one of the guys with true #1 WR potential, though. Adam isn't getting any younger. Guys like Pittman, Johnson, Ceephus et al profile more as #2 guys IMO. Which means you're looking for another again in a few years
Of course, Lamb, Juedy, Ruggs and Jefferson may all very well be gone by #22 rendering it a moot point. Will be fascinating to see how many runs on certain position types happen this year. Do all the Tackles go early, artificially moving someone up like Jackson or Cleveland in the process? Will the same happen at Receiver? Or will guys slide? Going to be a fun watch.
I know we just lost Diggs, but I really have no interest in the Vikings addressing that position in the first round until our Oline, Dline, and CB positions get taken care of. To me, especially if they extend Cook, this needs to happen first. If anything, Diggs proves we can find WR talent in the middle to late rounds of the draft and with this year's WR depth, I'm willing to take that gamble to prioritize the trenches and fill the void left by losing 5 DB's , our Nose Tackle, and our Right DE to Free Agency.
Wow. They hit on Diggs in the 5th and exactly nothing with every other Spielman pick accept sorta Jerius Wright and you believe Rick can find another one in the same mid to late Round range? Good luck with that
You're going to need 10 seconds worth of pass protection per play this year. Diggs took the top off of Defenses with his vertical route running and his home run ability. Adam's best use is not running vertical routes nor is he a home run threat on quick hitters.
There is currently no deep ball threat on this Roster. Double Thielen, stack the box to stop Cook. Easy as pie. Smith, Bisi, Sharpe and Rudy are not deep threats. Waiting until the later rounds to find one, with Rick's track record for finding Receivers, which is actually pretty bad except for Diggs and Thielen, neither of which was even expected to Start as Rookies, is a recipe for disaster, IMO.
I would hop on this take. Is it possible they find another late round gem? Sure. But no way in heck would they be putting all of their eggs in that basket. If they knew Diggs would be the player he developed into they would have taken him before MyCole Pruitt and T.J. Clemmings. Nobody will call it luck, but its an educated guess based on scouting. Thielen would fall into the same category, but I give AT a lot more credit for his own self-development.
If you took ever single asset (maybe even more) and traded up for Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs and knew for fact they'd have a similar impact its an easy decision. Simply because they net neutral on assets and saved $9M against the cap per season for the next 4 years.
I'm not suggesting we wait until the 5th round to address our need at WR, I was just pointing out that example. Diggs was an amazing find. With a deep class this year, I would rather address both lines and our DB needs with those first round picks and come back in the 2nd or 3rd to add WR talent. Unless Lamb, Jeudy, or Ruggs falls to us at 22, none of these other WR's that are getting first round hype at our draft position are worthy to be taken that high IMO. I see a lot of mocks giving us Jefferson or Mims at 22 with some really good defensive talent like Epenesa, Chaisson, T. Diggs, getting pushed down the board. There are plenty of second Tier WR's we could get in the second or third that wouldn't be a huge drop off in talent with how deep this class is. For a team that wants to feature Cook and had to trade Diggs because he wasn't happy with his role in the passing game, why do we want to invest a first round pick in these overhyped receivers who aren't even ranked in the overall top 32? We lost 5 DB's including 3 starters. With some of the updated Mocks I'm seeing and the defensive talent available, I would take Espenesa at 22, and come back with Tre Diggs at 25 and be thrilled with the value we got. By the way, T. Diggs can also fill our Punt Returner role.
You and I evaluate talent far differently. Epenesa has like 2 pass rush moves at best and many project that he might end up inside as a 3T instead. And yet, for all that he is generally considered a better prospect than Chaisson. Diggs is not a true 1st Round CB. Talent is there, performance isn't. After Okuda and Henderson there really isn't 1 CB that has elevated himself above the rest.
Jefferson is far more polished of a route runner than Mims. And he's interchangeable between Slot and Outside, which helps Thielen. I think there's a Big 4 at WR, not just the 3 guys.
And Geoff already did a fantastic breakdown of what a complete and utter fallacy it is to say you don't need 2 good WRs in a Kubiak led Offense that is run first. Let alone the fact that he had 2 thousand yard Receivers on his Super Bowl team. Or the fact that there is ZERO deep threat on this Roster right now that can take the top off of a Defense and force to not stack the box to stop Cook and double Thielen.
Now, the better value may well be in the 3rd for WR. Just like CB.
I think the smart play is the one Geoff already mentioned. Use 22 and some ammo to move up for Wirfs or Kinlaw. Fix the trenches first by adding a true Blue Chip Player. All this talk about trading down or standing pat means you're trying to plug every hole with 'pretty good' players. That's the kind of thinking that will keep this team in 9-7 purgatory.
The reality is that the team is not going to fill every single hole this offseason. So start by adding a virtual can't-miss guy. Then use 25 to trade back to plug a few more holes and/or move some ammo to next year.
Coming out of this Draft I want to know either LT or 3T is fixed for years to come. Not hope that one of those spots is filled with lesser talent.
What makes Epenesa special is that he played both 3T and DE at Iowa and would give us that flexibility to move him around the line which is something I don't think you could do with Gross-Matos. We desperately need an interior DL who can rush the passer and if Epenesa is there at 22 I would be very happy with that selection and why I'm using your 3T argument about him as a reason we should draft him. Patterson will develop his pass rushing skills in addition to what he has. I don't disagree with you on the need for a 2nd WR and the importance that role is to the offense, but I don't understand all the excitement of wanting to burn a first on Jefferson or Mims who will take a year or two to develop with the hope they can build up to Diggs level of productivity in a run fist scheme. In a weaker WR draft like last year, AJ Brown and DK Metcalf were solid contributors and great value in the 2nd round. That's my reasoning for not wanting to gamble one of those 1st round picks on a WR because I'm not convinced that outside of Lamb, Jeudy, or Ruggs that the fringe 1st round leftovers are worth it but Rick may feel differently. Bottom line is that we have so many holes that need starters right now, I don't think even Rick will screw this up unless he tries to outsmart everyone else with constantly trading down.
It’s interesting to hear the team is looking to move up. Personally, I think it’s something you don’t hesitate to if you think there’s a pro bowler there.
My main desire is for a penetrating, disruptive, defensive tackle. I’ve had all the time in the world to look at prospects with the virus, but admittedly I’m behind.
WR is obviously a huge need. I really like Bisi as a well rounded WR, but agree a field stretcher/playmaker helps a lot. Now is the time as well since we have such a great pro in Thielen to help these young guys learn the NFL trade. I will get through them.
I just took a look at Chase Claypool. I liked him catching a few games during the season and I just got reminded why. The kid may be fairly new but his ability is off the charts. There’ll be a big change with the kind of corners he’ll see, but that kind of size still gives such a huge advantage and he seems to know how to utilize it. There’s a lot to work with.
On to the next, but I could definitely get behind a WR early as well. DT penetrator and WR and I’ll be happy. I actually think we still have some talent at corner but it never hurts to add there as well.
Quote: @Havoc1649 said:
It’s interesting to hear the team is looking to move up. Personally, I think it’s something you don’t hesitate to if you think there’s a pro bowler there.
My main desire is for a penetrating, disruptive, defensive tackle. I’ve had all the time in the world to look at prospects with the virus, but admittedly I’m behind.
WR is obviously a huge need. I really like Bisi as a well rounded WR, but agree a field stretcher/playmaker helps a lot. Now is the time as well since we have such a great pro in Thielen to help these young guys learn the NFL trade. I will get through them.
I just took a look at Chase Claypool. I liked him catching a few games during the season and I just got reminded why. The kid may be fairly new but his ability is off the charts. There’ll be a big change with the kind of corners he’ll see, but that kind of size still gives such a huge advantage and he seems to know how to utilize it. There’s a lot to work with.
On to the next, but I could definitely get behind a WR early as well. DT penetrator and WR and I’ll be happy. I actually think we still have some talent at corner but it never hurts to add there as well.
Claypool is an interesting prospect. 6'4" with 4.43 speed at the combine is freakish. It's prospects like him in the second tier of this WR draft class that makes me want to hold off taking a first round wide out. I know several will disagree with me. There are a lot of Jefferson, Mims, Higgins, Shenault, and Aiyuk fans out there who don't want to wait until our pick in the 2nd for fear of missing out on one. If we really have our eyes on one these guys, I would prefer we trade down with our 25th pick for an early 2nd go after the best available while still getting some additional draft capital for Oline, Dline, or DB.
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