The optimist in me says re-load, kinda like GB and Sea have done.
Semantics I know - and I dont know what this means for 2020 as much as 21.
That is if we even have a 2020.
Quote: @Havoc1649 said:
“Rebuild”. I disagree with this term in regards to the Vikings.
We’re in the middle of a fair number of personnel changes, but nothing extraordinary. We’re jettisoning huge contracts. Besides Diggs, no one is walking who either can’t be replaced by players already on the team or through a good draft. Especially with a number of early picks. We addressed the one area I felt probably needed to be with a free agent in the middle of the line. Yes this team will be young, but it still has some seriously good players a key positions.
I fully expect this team to make a playoff run again. If this coaching staff is actually good, that will be the case.
I get how it can feel like a “rebuild” since people aren’t sure about some of the other guys on the roster, but the coaches certainly are. If the coaches believe Holton Hill can exceed 2019 Rhodes, this is potentially an upgrade. Personally, I think he has the ability. I have concern for his off field, but not much for his on the field play.
Lastly, I wouldn’t trade Ant for anything less than a 2nd. I’d rather roll with him or get him on a long term contract. He’s a top 5 safety. Just like prior to the Diggs trade, I think many fans greatly underestimate value. If we absolutely had to get rid of the guy for cap reasons that’s a different story, but we don’t in this case.
Who's the starting RDE? Either a part-time player who's never seen Starter Reps, a Rookie or a Tier 3 FA. Who's the 3T? Either a 2nd year player or a Rookie. Hughes and Hill are now Starters for the 1st time in their young careers. Boyd will get a lot of snaps. Who plays if either Safety gets hurt?
Who are the Starting Guards? Likely a 2nd Year Player and a Rookie. Who's the 2nd WR? Sharpe is a WR #3, Bisi is a #4 WR.
This isn't a rebuild? There will be 6 new Starters on Defense, most of them unproven youngsters. And 3 new ones on Offense. 8-8 seems like the ceiling even if Rick nails the Draft and only if the team suffers almost no injuries since the depth is even less proven than all the new Starters.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ Havoc1649 said:
“Rebuild”. I disagree with this term in regards to the Vikings.
We’re in the middle of a fair number of personnel changes, but nothing extraordinary. We’re jettisoning huge contracts. Besides Diggs, no one is walking who either can’t be replaced by players already on the team or through a good draft. Especially with a number of early picks. We addressed the one area I felt probably needed to be with a free agent in the middle of the line. Yes this team will be young, but it still has some seriously good players a key positions.
I fully expect this team to make a playoff run again. If this coaching staff is actually good, that will be the case.
I get how it can feel like a “rebuild” since people aren’t sure about some of the other guys on the roster, but the coaches certainly are. If the coaches believe Holton Hill can exceed 2019 Rhodes, this is potentially an upgrade. Personally, I think he has the ability. I have concern for his off field, but not much for his on the field play.
Lastly, I wouldn’t trade Ant for anything less than a 2nd. I’d rather roll with him or get him on a long term contract. He’s a top 5 safety. Just like prior to the Diggs trade, I think many fans greatly underestimate value. If we absolutely had to get rid of the guy for cap reasons that’s a different story, but we don’t in this case.
Who's the starting RDE? Either a part-time player who's never seen Starter Reps, a Rookie or a Tier 3 FA. Who's the 3T? Either a 2nd year player or a Rookie. Hughes and Hill are now Starters for the 1st time in their young careers. Boyd will get a lot of snaps. Who plays if either Safety gets hurt?
Who are the Starting Guards? Likely a 2nd Year Player and a Rookie. Who's the 2nd WR? Sharpe is a WR #3, Bisi is a #4 WR.
This isn't a rebuild? There will be 6 new Starters on Defense, most of them unproven youngsters. And 3 new ones on Offense. 8-8 seems like the ceiling even if Rick nails the Draft and only if the team suffers almost no injuries since the depth is even less proven than all the new Starters.
I just don't think it is that bad. It's like asking if the glass if half full or half empty? I can see how the recency of free agency would point you towards the latter. But in reality we will have Danielle, Pierce (addition), Kendricks, Barr, Harris, and Smith. 5 out of the 6 of those are probably top 3 at their given positions. That is also over half of the defensive starters. Some other team would be salivating over that. You do not need to have a top 5 or even top 10 player at every position.
On offense they are about a net neutral along the O-line but have taken a big step back at WR. But Thielen missed significant time last season for the first time in his career and Dalvin/Mattison are going to be running the show. Prior to the Diggs trade it was the argument "paying two WRs top dollar is not a good use of resources" then after "our WR's are awful". Both are probably true statement but they will fill some of the voids in the draft.
Maybe I am an optimist or simply unrealistic but I think even with some holes if they can add 3 starters and some depth in this draft class they're a 10 win team.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ Havoc1649 said:
“Rebuild”. I disagree with this term in regards to the Vikings.
We’re in the middle of a fair number of personnel changes, but nothing extraordinary. We’re jettisoning huge contracts. Besides Diggs, no one is walking who either can’t be replaced by players already on the team or through a good draft. Especially with a number of early picks. We addressed the one area I felt probably needed to be with a free agent in the middle of the line. Yes this team will be young, but it still has some seriously good players a key positions.
I fully expect this team to make a playoff run again. If this coaching staff is actually good, that will be the case.
I get how it can feel like a “rebuild” since people aren’t sure about some of the other guys on the roster, but the coaches certainly are. If the coaches believe Holton Hill can exceed 2019 Rhodes, this is potentially an upgrade. Personally, I think he has the ability. I have concern for his off field, but not much for his on the field play.
Lastly, I wouldn’t trade Ant for anything less than a 2nd. I’d rather roll with him or get him on a long term contract. He’s a top 5 safety. Just like prior to the Diggs trade, I think many fans greatly underestimate value. If we absolutely had to get rid of the guy for cap reasons that’s a different story, but we don’t in this case.
Who's the starting RDE? Either a part-time player who's never seen Starter Reps, a Rookie or a Tier 3 FA. Who's the 3T? Either a 2nd year player or a Rookie. Hughes and Hill are now Starters for the 1st time in their young careers. Boyd will get a lot of snaps. Who plays if either Safety gets hurt?
Who are the Starting Guards? Likely a 2nd Year Player and a Rookie. Who's the 2nd WR? Sharpe is a WR #3, Bisi is a #4 WR.
This isn't a rebuild? There will be 6 new Starters on Defense, most of them unproven youngsters. And 3 new ones on Offense. 8-8 seems like the ceiling even if Rick nails the Draft and only if the team suffers almost no injuries since the depth is even less proven than all the new Starters.
I just don't think it is that bad. It's like asking if the glass if half full or half empty? I can see how the recency of free agency would point you towards the latter. But in reality we will have Danielle, Pierce (addition), Kendricks, Barr, Harris, and Smith. 5 out of the 6 of those are probably top 3 at their given positions. That is also over half of the defensive starters. Some other team would be salivating over that. You do not need to have a top 5 or even top 10 player at every position.
On offense they are about a net neutral along the O-line but have taken a big step back at WR. But Thielen missed significant time last season for the first time in his career and Dalvin/Mattison are going to be running the show. Prior to the Diggs trade it was the argument "paying two WRs top dollar is not a good use of resources" then after "our WR's are awful". Both are probably true statement but they will fill some of the voids in the draft.
Maybe I am an optimist or simply unrealistic but I think even with some holes if they can add 3 starters and some depth in this draft class they're a 10 win team.
There's a 3rd viewpoint though: the Realist. As a Realist I've seen signs from Hughes that tell me he has the potential to develop farther and faster than Waynes. But not enough to automatically pencil him in as a lock to hold a Starting spot down, be it at Slot CB or on the Outside. And I've seen far less of Hill. And even less of Boyd and Sayles. Even in the Zone Scheme it's not Realistic to project that they will hold up unless the D-Line is killing it.
And on that D-Line is Ogdenigbo, whom you wisely pointed out may be better suited in a Supersub role than as a Starter. So now you're looking at a Rookie starting there or a Tier 3 FA. Analytics shows that Pierce brings even less to the table as a pass rusher than Joseph. The 3T is either Watts, again with limited snaps to judge him on, or a Rookie.
I'll ask again who the Safeties are that step in and help the Baby CBs if Harris or Smith get hurt. Rookies or Tier 3 FAs is the realistic answer, so staying healthy at that spot is a must.
On Offense you need a combination of Irv, a Rookie, Sharpe and Bisi to replace Diggs production. Especially deep, where, unbeknownst to many on this site, Stefon was one of the best deep ball threats in the League.
It's not Realistic to say 'well, this is a running team so who needs that production?'. First, this team got shut down in several games trying to stick with the run. Really, they weren't effective rushing against just about any Defense ranked League Average or better and actually struggled against some that weren't even good.
'Well, the upgraded Line will make it easier to run.'. What upgrades? The team just lost its best interior blocker. I like Samia a lot but it isn't Realistic to assume he will automatically be an upgrade over Kline. And Elf simply can't Start again, which makes cutting Kline look even more like a move made by a team in Rebuild mode. Reiff will be a year older and can't handle speed anyway, which keeps Rudy in to block more.
Defensed will load the box, double Adam and dare Minnesota to beat them with Irv, Sharpe, Bisi and a Rookie. Many want that Rookie to be a 3rd Round pick. Which realistically means a player with a high floor but low ceiling. And will that entire combination replace Diggs' deep catch production? Not realistically.
While it's true that 6 of 11 on Defense are at or near Elite, we don't have any way of knowing that the other 5 will even be League Average. If even one of them is Below Replacement Level ala Elf, which is as likely as them all being Average, then there's a serious hole to exploit. If it's at 3T teams will still run on Minnesota and get in 3rd and short. If it's at CB ala Rhodes teams will target that player all game long. If it's at Safety because of injury the backend is compromised.
The team is Retooling, which hasn't exactly gotten Green Bay or Seattle back to where they want to be. If the retooling goes exactly according to plan this team is a threat to make the Playoffs but not to go far.
If they Rebuild by going young and looking at KC as a bridge to a younger QB that will allow the team to add pieces to compensate for inevitable misses in the Draft because the QBs isn't eating up so much cap space I'm good with it. Soft Rebuild, Retooling on the Fly or whatever folks want to call it is Realistically not going to transform this team into a Super Bowl contender any time soon.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ Havoc1649 said:
“Rebuild”. I disagree with this term in regards to the Vikings.
We’re in the middle of a fair number of personnel changes, but nothing extraordinary. We’re jettisoning huge contracts. Besides Diggs, no one is walking who either can’t be replaced by players already on the team or through a good draft. Especially with a number of early picks. We addressed the one area I felt probably needed to be with a free agent in the middle of the line. Yes this team will be young, but it still has some seriously good players a key positions.
I fully expect this team to make a playoff run again. If this coaching staff is actually good, that will be the case.
I get how it can feel like a “rebuild” since people aren’t sure about some of the other guys on the roster, but the coaches certainly are. If the coaches believe Holton Hill can exceed 2019 Rhodes, this is potentially an upgrade. Personally, I think he has the ability. I have concern for his off field, but not much for his on the field play.
Lastly, I wouldn’t trade Ant for anything less than a 2nd. I’d rather roll with him or get him on a long term contract. He’s a top 5 safety. Just like prior to the Diggs trade, I think many fans greatly underestimate value. If we absolutely had to get rid of the guy for cap reasons that’s a different story, but we don’t in this case.
Who's the starting RDE? Either a part-time player who's never seen Starter Reps, a Rookie or a Tier 3 FA. Who's the 3T? Either a 2nd year player or a Rookie. Hughes and Hill are now Starters for the 1st time in their young careers. Boyd will get a lot of snaps. Who plays if either Safety gets hurt?
Who are the Starting Guards? Likely a 2nd Year Player and a Rookie. Who's the 2nd WR? Sharpe is a WR #3, Bisi is a #4 WR.
This isn't a rebuild? There will be 6 new Starters on Defense, most of them unproven youngsters. And 3 new ones on Offense. 8-8 seems like the ceiling even if Rick nails the Draft and only if the team suffers almost no injuries since the depth is even less proven than all the new Starters.
I just don't think it is that bad. It's like asking if the glass if half full or half empty? I can see how the recency of free agency would point you towards the latter. But in reality we will have Danielle, Pierce (addition), Kendricks, Barr, Harris, and Smith. 5 out of the 6 of those are probably top 3 at their given positions. That is also over half of the defensive starters. Some other team would be salivating over that. You do not need to have a top 5 or even top 10 player at every position.
On offense they are about a net neutral along the O-line but have taken a big step back at WR. But Thielen missed significant time last season for the first time in his career and Dalvin/Mattison are going to be running the show. Prior to the Diggs trade it was the argument "paying two WRs top dollar is not a good use of resources" then after "our WR's are awful". Both are probably true statement but they will fill some of the voids in the draft.
Maybe I am an optimist or simply unrealistic but I think even with some holes if they can add 3 starters and some depth in this draft class they're a 10 win team.
I see what you did there. Clever...
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ Havoc1649 said:
“Rebuild”. I disagree with this term in regards to the Vikings.
We’re in the middle of a fair number of personnel changes, but nothing extraordinary. We’re jettisoning huge contracts. Besides Diggs, no one is walking who either can’t be replaced by players already on the team or through a good draft. Especially with a number of early picks. We addressed the one area I felt probably needed to be with a free agent in the middle of the line. Yes this team will be young, but it still has some seriously good players a key positions.
I fully expect this team to make a playoff run again. If this coaching staff is actually good, that will be the case.
I get how it can feel like a “rebuild” since people aren’t sure about some of the other guys on the roster, but the coaches certainly are. If the coaches believe Holton Hill can exceed 2019 Rhodes, this is potentially an upgrade. Personally, I think he has the ability. I have concern for his off field, but not much for his on the field play.
Lastly, I wouldn’t trade Ant for anything less than a 2nd. I’d rather roll with him or get him on a long term contract. He’s a top 5 safety. Just like prior to the Diggs trade, I think many fans greatly underestimate value. If we absolutely had to get rid of the guy for cap reasons that’s a different story, but we don’t in this case.
Who's the starting RDE? Either a part-time player who's never seen Starter Reps, a Rookie or a Tier 3 FA. Who's the 3T? Either a 2nd year player or a Rookie. Hughes and Hill are now Starters for the 1st time in their young careers. Boyd will get a lot of snaps. Who plays if either Safety gets hurt?
Who are the Starting Guards? Likely a 2nd Year Player and a Rookie. Who's the 2nd WR? Sharpe is a WR #3, Bisi is a #4 WR.
This isn't a rebuild? There will be 6 new Starters on Defense, most of them unproven youngsters. And 3 new ones on Offense. 8-8 seems like the ceiling even if Rick nails the Draft and only if the team suffers almost no injuries since the depth is even less proven than all the new Starters.
I just don't think it is that bad. It's like asking if the glass if half full or half empty? I can see how the recency of free agency would point you towards the latter. But in reality we will have Danielle, Pierce (addition), Kendricks, Barr, Harris, and Smith. 5 out of the 6 of those are probably top 3 at their given positions. That is also over half of the defensive starters. Some other team would be salivating over that. You do not need to have a top 5 or even top 10 player at every position.
On offense they are about a net neutral along the O-line but have taken a big step back at WR. But Thielen missed significant time last season for the first time in his career and Dalvin/Mattison are going to be running the show. Prior to the Diggs trade it was the argument "paying two WRs top dollar is not a good use of resources" then after "our WR's are awful". Both are probably true statement but they will fill some of the voids in the draft.
Maybe I am an optimist or simply unrealistic but I think even with some holes if they can add 3 starters and some depth in this draft class they're a 10 win team.
The team is Retooling, which hasn't exactly gotten Green Bay or Seattle back to where they want to be. If the retooling goes exactly according to plan this team is a threat to make the Playoffs but not to go far.
If they Rebuild by going young and looking at KC as a bridge to a younger QB that will allow the team to add pieces to compensate for inevitable misses in the Draft because the QBs isn't eating up so much cap space I'm good with it. Soft Rebuild, Retooling on the Fly or whatever folks want to call it is Realistically not going to transform this team into a Super Bowl contender any time soon.
So don't you conclude the plan is not really to be a Super Bowl contender, at least not an "all in" contender? In another post you asked something to the effect of, "What are the Wilfs thinking letting these guys run a rebuild?" I think that a few years ago, the Wilfs were excited at the idea of winning a championship, and especially at the prospect of playing in the SB at USB. They approved the Hail Mary trade for Bradford to hopefully keep the schedule on track. But that passed, and they may have maintained the drive when they signed Cousins and Sheldon Richardson, but two more years of "pretty good but not great" and they're tired of "all in". I believe they don't want to go to the effort to recruit a new GM and new HC and then go through the cost and effort of a total rebuild, even if they know it's probably necessary to really blow through the next level and win a championship. Rebuilds also usually include a year or two of heavy losing, and what fun is that?
I think they are just keeping the current management in place, trimming the spending a bit, and expect that will keep them in the 9-10 win range. It's easy and profitable.
I believe that 1 of 2 things happened: the FO was gearing up to go All In one more time when Diggs finally forced his way out and changed their plans to 'Soft Rebuild'. Or the Wilfs wanted Cousins extended to keep butts in seats while the team quietly went full Rebuild, which is a terrible strategy since Kirk is eating up a huge chunk of cap space that could have been used this offseason and the next two to add more high upside younger guys.
Next step will be extending Cook, not that he's any part of the rebuild, he puts butts in seats.
SI has an article about Minnesota straddling the line between contending and rebuilding. Daily Norseman has one called What is the Team Doing. And an excellent podcast by BJ Reidell and Drew Mahowald called What exactly are the Vikings doing. A franchise that hates dead cap space is currently carrying the 5th most in the NFL. The GM and HC are on the last year of their deals.
Theirs so much speculation for a reason. Some moves look like a team that thinks its window is still open. Others smack of rebuilding. It's schizophrenic.
I encourage all of you to check out that Reidell and Mahowald podcast. I've never listened to them before but they had a very reasoned, intelligent discussion about what Minnesota is trying to do that really encapsulated things for me.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
I believe that 1 of 2 things happened: the FO was gearing up to go All In one more time when Diggs finally forced his way out and changed their plans to 'Soft Rebuild'. Or the Wilfs wanted Cousins extended to keep butts in seats while the team quietly went full Rebuild, which is a terrible strategy since Kirk is eating up a huge chunk of cap space that could have been used this offseason and the next two to add more high upside younger guys.
Next step will be extending Cook, not that he's any part of the rebuild, he puts butts in seats.
SI has an article about Minnesota straddling the line between contending and rebuilding. Daily Norseman has one called What is the Team Doing. And an excellent podcast by BJ Reidell and Drew Mahowald called What exactly are the Vikings doing. A franchise that hates dead cap space is currently carrying the 5th most in the NFL. The GM and HC are on the last year of their deals.
Theirs so much speculation for a reason. Some moves look like a team that thinks its window is still open. Others smack of rebuilding. It's schizophrenic.
I encourage all of you to check out that Reidell and Mahowald podcast. I've never listened to them before but they had a very reasoned, intelligent discussion about what Minnesota is trying to do that really encapsulated things for me.
I've listened to them a few times. They have a good podcast. Like they said, signs point to soft rebuild and contending but the Vikings can't do both...so what are Vikings doing?
Quote: @FSUVike said:
I believe that 1 of 2 things happened: the FO was gearing up to go All In one more time when Diggs finally forced his way out and changed their plans to 'Soft Rebuild'. Or the Wilfs wanted Cousins extended to keep butts in seats while the team quietly went full Rebuild, which is a terrible strategy since Kirk is eating up a huge chunk of cap space that could have been used this offseason and the next two to add more high upside younger guys.
Next step will be extending Cook, not that he's any part of the rebuild, he puts butts in seats.
SI has an article about Minnesota straddling the line between contending and rebuilding. Daily Norseman has one called What is the Team Doing. And an excellent podcast by BJ Reidell and Drew Mahowald called What exactly are the Vikings doing. A franchise that hates dead cap space is currently carrying the 5th most in the NFL. The GM and HC are on the last year of their deals.
Theirs so much speculation for a reason. Some moves look like a team that thinks its window is still open. Others smack of rebuilding. It's schizophrenic.
I encourage all of you to check out that Reidell and Mahowald podcast. I've never listened to them before but they had a very reasoned, intelligent discussion about what Minnesota is trying to do that really encapsulated things for me.
I will check it out, thanks.
As to what are they doing, I don't think they know. If they did, they'd address the elephant in the room which is Zimmer's inability to win most of the games that matter.
I've maintained all off-season that regardless of how they shuffle the pieces around the end result will still be the same--around 9 wins and an early playoff exit.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
I believe that 1 of 2 things happened: the FO was gearing up to go All In one more time when Diggs finally forced his way out and changed their plans to 'Soft Rebuild'. Or the Wilfs wanted Cousins extended to keep butts in seats while the team quietly went full Rebuild, which is a terrible strategy since Kirk is eating up a huge chunk of cap space that could have been used this offseason and the next two to add more high upside younger guys.
Next step will be extending Cook, not that he's any part of the rebuild, he puts butts in seats.
SI has an article about Minnesota straddling the line between contending and rebuilding. Daily Norseman has one called What is the Team Doing. And an excellent podcast by BJ Reidell and Drew Mahowald called What exactly are the Vikings doing. A franchise that hates dead cap space is currently carrying the 5th most in the NFL. The GM and HC are on the last year of their deals.
Theirs so much speculation for a reason. Some moves look like a team that thinks its window is still open. Others smack of rebuilding. It's schizophrenic.
I encourage all of you to check out that Reidell and Mahowald podcast. I've never listened to them before but they had a very reasoned, intelligent discussion about what Minnesota is trying to do that really encapsulated things for me.
But you're looking at it from a binary either/or perspective - that their strategy is either "rebuild" or "go for it completely". IMO they are in a middle ground of just maintaining competence. It's not "mediocrity" but it's "above-average-ocrity".
The extension of Cousins proves this is their plan. Cousins has not shown he is an elite QB but he has shown he will win the easier games and even put up stats that let the team claim they have a solid solution in place at that position. He stays healthy and he seems to get along well enough with Zimmer. What more do you want from a QB??
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