Price Point Vikings Might Be Willing To Pay A Slot CB

[Guest]

@Jor-El said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@FSUVike said:
Possibly, but if I'm rebuilding why would I sign guys that will be near 30 when my window opens again?

Coleman or Ryan only made sense if they were trying to go All In next season. Now that we know they're not positions where the wheels fall off fast like CB make zero sense to fill with older FAs. Needs to come from the Draft or a trade for a younger guy.

What is they are going to potentially leave Hughes in the slot or have high expectations for Sayles? 

This lack of a secondary is getting blown so far out of proportion. They obviously will add in the draft but their top 4 of Hughes, Hill, Boyd, and Sayles is not nearly as bad as most are making it out to be. The Chiefs literally won the Super Bowl with a 2nd year UDFA, and Bashaud Breeland (who can't find a new team) as CB. 

But the Chiefs' model in their secondary is far different from what Zimmer has done since arriving in Minnesota (and what he did in Cincinnati), which was stressing top talent at CB. Is he going to run a completely different approach? On the one hand I applaud the flexibility, but does his background really mean we should be confident in what will be an experimental approach for him?

What they played after the bye last year was much closer to how the Chiefs operate on the back-end than how Zimmer has historically played. You don't need elite CBs to play quarters coverage, you just need guys with range who can play the ball in the air. Thus why you see a lot of taller and longer guys in cover-3/4 schemes. I don't know for fact they'll stick with that coverage but everything they've done this off-season suggests it.  

Going back to the Vikings defense last year, the secondary was not great but I don't necessarily think they were the biggest issue. Their inability to force 3rd and long killed their ability to get after the QB consistently and makes things very difficult on the secondary. Opponent route trees are limited on 3rd and 7 but the possibilities are endless on 3rd and 2. The Vikings run defense was perfectly below average last year which put them in no mans land on 3rd down. In the past the Vikings have ranked top 10 in 3rd downs faced per game since 2015. In 2019 that dropped to 6th worst in the league. Meaning they got to 3rd down, just a ton of them. They key stat is that the Vikings completion % against was bottom 5 in the league but their yards per pass attempt was 6th best. 

What does that mean? They couldn't stop teams trying to get 2-3 yards through the air but were very good at stopping chunk plays. That isn't a recipe for success when you allow teams to face 3rd and short. But that starts up front, not in the secondary. 

[Guest]

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@Jor-El said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@FSUVike said:
Possibly, but if I'm rebuilding why would I sign guys that will be near 30 when my window opens again?

Coleman or Ryan only made sense if they were trying to go All In next season. Now that we know they're not positions where the wheels fall off fast like CB make zero sense to fill with older FAs. Needs to come from the Draft or a trade for a younger guy.

What is they are going to potentially leave Hughes in the slot or have high expectations for Sayles? 

This lack of a secondary is getting blown so far out of proportion. They obviously will add in the draft but their top 4 of Hughes, Hill, Boyd, and Sayles is not nearly as bad as most are making it out to be. The Chiefs literally won the Super Bowl with a 2nd year UDFA, and Bashaud Breeland (who can't find a new team) as CB. 

But the Chiefs' model in their secondary is far different from what Zimmer has done since arriving in Minnesota (and what he did in Cincinnati), which was stressing top talent at CB. Is he going to run a completely different approach? On the one hand I applaud the flexibility, but does his background really mean we should be confident in what will be an experimental approach for him?

What they played after the bye last year was much closer to how the Chiefs operate on the back-end than how Zimmer has historically played. You don't need elite CBs to play quarters coverage, you just need guys with range who can play the ball in the air. Thus why you see a lot of taller and longer guys in cover-3/4 schemes. I don't know for fact they'll stick with that coverage but everything they've done this off-season suggests it.  

Going back to the Vikings defense last year, the secondary was not great but I don't necessarily think they were the biggest issue. Their inability to force 3rd and long killed their ability to get after the QB consistently and makes things very difficult on the secondary. Opponent route trees are limited on 3rd and 7 but the possibilities are endless on 3rd and 2. The Vikings run defense was perfectly below average last year which put them in no mans land on 3rd down. In the past the Vikings have ranked top 10 in 3rd downs faced per game since 2015. In 2019 that dropped to 6th worst in the league. Meaning they got to 3rd down, just a ton of them. They key stat is that the Vikings completion % against was bottom 5 in the league but their yards per pass attempt was 6th best. 

What does that mean? They couldn't stop teams trying to get 2-3 yards through the air but were very good at stopping chunk plays. That isn't a recipe for success when you allow teams to face 3rd and short. But that starts up front, not in the secondary. 

Exactly.  Our CB’s while performing poor compared to previous year’s were not helped by the lack of a stout interior pass rush.  Fastest way to a QB is an interior push and we had none of that last year (until we moved Griff inside).  

If you had to add one stud from the draft, I would try to get the best UT possible.  Teaming him with Pierce, Hunter, Fedi and a potential DE via draft or FA would making Hill, Hughes, Boyd, and whomever else we add, job easier.  Bashard Breeland can look good when Jones, Ford, and Clark are chasing down the QB inside and out.

Package up 22 with a 3rd and more?, get to 12/13 and take Kinlaw.  Grab a CB in the following rounds, bring in JJoseph as a vet

I think this defense could look similar to the earlier Zim days (2015) when we had young CB’s with a vet (Rhodes, rookie Waynes, Newman), a prime run stuffer (Joseph), a quick pass rushing DT (Floyd), and a premier in his prime pass rusher (Griff).  We would be older at Safety but better at LB

15: Rhodes, Waynes, Newman
20: Hill, Hughes, Joseph

15: Griff-Joseph-Floyd-Rookie Hunter
20: Hunter-Pierce-Kinlaw-Rookie 3rd Rounder

[Guest]

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@FSUVike said:
Possibly, but if I'm rebuilding why would I sign guys that will be near 30 when my window opens again?

Coleman or Ryan only made sense if they were trying to go All In next season. Now that we know they're not positions where the wheels fall off fast like CB make zero sense to fill with older FAs. Needs to come from the Draft or a trade for a younger guy.

What is they are going to potentially leave Hughes in the slot or have high expectations for Sayles? 

This lack of a secondary is getting blown so far out of proportion. They obviously will add in the draft but their top 4 of Hughes, Hill, Boyd, and Sayles is not nearly as bad as most are making it out to be. The Chiefs literally won the Super Bowl with a 2nd year UDFA, and Bashaud Breeland (who can't find a new team) as CB. 

It's good to know that the team views Hughes as a fit at Slot CB, I know that I haven't been alone here in advocating for that to happen. Also good to know that Sayles has high potential in their estimation. 

But that doesn't answer why they would pursue a Slot CB who would hit 30 by the time the team is ready to compete again. Do they really believe they will be viable again after only 2 Drafts? It's not just Starters, there's zero depth at Safety, CB, Guard, DE, 3T, and WR.

Even a home run Draft this year won't be enough. Rick would need a 2nd Gone Run Draft with those kids ready to contribute from Day 1 in order for the team to have a realistic chance to compete in 2021. And this all presupposes that Hughes, Hill, Boyd and Sayles pan out or there's even more holes to fill.

This feels weird. Like the team was planning on being competitive again this season, so they extended KC. But then Diggs forced his way out and Griff, Mac and others decided they didn't want to stay. Which left Rick and Mike going through sort of a half-retooling, half-rebuilding mode where they aren't fully committed to either course of action.

Is it possible Rick and Mike aren't on the same page? Signing Pierce is an All In move, trading Diggs and cutting Kline are We're Rebuilding moves. Strange Times Indeed.