Quote: @comet52 said:
@ mjollnir_k said:
@ comet52 said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
Anyone else find it funny that Paton bypassed many opportunities, but this is the one he takes? Is there worse ownership in the NFL? Odd move.
Worse would be Dan Snyder but Haslam has a lock on 2nd place. If Paton is so smart I wonder why he's willing to do this, especially when DePodesta is going to sit in SoCal calling shots?
Then again maybe he is ready to take any opportunity to get out from under RS and Zygmunt who haven't exactly built a championship culture here in their 16 years at the wheel.
Other then the Patriots what team has built a "Championship Culture" and to your detriment Rick has been in charge as GM since 2012 and the Wilfs bought the team in 2005 and have a 126-112 record. That is including changing 4 coaches in a 15 year period. Prior to that 7 coaches from 1961 to 2004. To say they have not been actively trying to bring a champion is ludicrous.
'To my detriment Rick has been in charge'... I can't even make sense of that sentence.. a middle of the road record and a bunch of coaches means what to me, exactly? Watching other teams find ways to get to and win Super Bowls while the Vikings fiddle around annoys me. You know what matters? Not building buildings, not fiddling around with coaches, not the p.r. about how much they care blah blah blah, not a middle of the road record. What matters is having a real shot at winning it and I'd say once in 16 years when they rented the last gasp of Brett Favre was that a possibility.
But yeah I get it. I point out that we're mostly sucking air for 16 years under Wilf and there is always some guy getting huffy about it, because boy it's so great around here in purple town! If I hadn't been watching other teams win it all for the last 50 years I might agree with you pal. Point that flew right over your head was Spielman and the Wilfs were not in the position to effect the team 16 years ago, so your statement make no sense from the start. And while I am at the point of Rick and Mike are not the answer I have yet to see anybody that is. See the Les experiments do not sit well with me, Childress well the really good year with him was due more to the last gasp QB. Your claim of saying the Wilfs have not exactly built a championship culture is what set me off. They have changed more coaches then any other owner, They have also invested more in the team and every position of the team then any other owner. The fact that it has not produce a Super Bowl is testament to how hard the achievement is, not the idiocy of the front office. Face it they are playing chess while the wannabe GM on here are barely able to play checkers.
I've been in the Spielman good/bad arguments enough so I don't want to debate that here, but I look at this from Paton's perspective and it makes sense to leave the Vikings. There are two basic paths ahead:
1. Spielman is a great GM and the Vikings continue to ascend/contend and the Wilfs will give him a long contract soon. Spielman is only 57, so he will stay another 5 years or more. The Wilfs might promote Paton to GM when Spielman peacefully retires, but Paton might be in his late 50s, and a lot (even ownership) can change in that time.
2. Spielman is terrible and the Vikings window is collapsing and the team will have a big setback season soon, and the Wilfs will fire Spielman and Zimmer. Paton's big chance? But if the ownership determines the Spielman regime was a failure, why would they think his assistant is the new answer? More likely, Paton is swept away with the housecleaning.
He's probably been told that he is in the team's "succession plan" as Spielman's heir. Succession plans make sense in the military, but I've rarely seen it followed in business because any departure of a person in a leadership position is seen as an opportunity to inject new thinking.
Paton left without an offer...seems like both sides have some thinking to do...
Quote: @mjollnir_k said:
@ comet52 said:
@ mjollnir_k said:
@ comet52 said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
Anyone else find it funny that Paton bypassed many opportunities, but this is the one he takes? Is there worse ownership in the NFL? Odd move.
Worse would be Dan Snyder but Haslam has a lock on 2nd place. If Paton is so smart I wonder why he's willing to do this, especially when DePodesta is going to sit in SoCal calling shots?
Then again maybe he is ready to take any opportunity to get out from under RS and Zygmunt who haven't exactly built a championship culture here in their 16 years at the wheel.
Other then the Patriots what team has built a "Championship Culture" and to your detriment Rick has been in charge as GM since 2012 and the Wilfs bought the team in 2005 and have a 126-112 record. That is including changing 4 coaches in a 15 year period. Prior to that 7 coaches from 1961 to 2004. To say they have not been actively trying to bring a champion is ludicrous.
'To my detriment Rick has been in charge'... I can't even make sense of that sentence.. a middle of the road record and a bunch of coaches means what to me, exactly? Watching other teams find ways to get to and win Super Bowls while the Vikings fiddle around annoys me. You know what matters? Not building buildings, not fiddling around with coaches, not the p.r. about how much they care blah blah blah, not a middle of the road record. What matters is having a real shot at winning it and I'd say once in 16 years when they rented the last gasp of Brett Favre was that a possibility.
But yeah I get it. I point out that we're mostly sucking air for 16 years under Wilf and there is always some guy getting huffy about it, because boy it's so great around here in purple town! If I hadn't been watching other teams win it all for the last 50 years I might agree with you pal. Point that flew right over your head was Spielman and the Wilfs were not in the position to effect the team 16 years ago, so your statement make no sense from the start. And while I am at the point of Rick and Mike are not the answer I have yet to see anybody that is. See the Les experiments do not sit well with me, Childress well the really good year with him was due more to the last gasp QB. Your claim of saying the Wilfs have not exactly built a championship culture is what set me off. They have changed more coaches then any other owner, They have also invested more in the team and every position of the team then any other owner. The fact that it has not produce a Super Bowl is testament to how hard the achievement is, not the idiocy of the front office. Face it they are playing chess while the wannabe GM on here are barely able to play checkers.
They bought the team 16 years ago and affected it immediately, hiring Foley, Chili and Rick and implementing the t.o.a. Maybe you can pretend there is some magic point at which their ownership suddenly started having an effect but not me. They play chess or more like dirty pool when it comes to making money but football? If Rick plays checkers then I'd say that Wilf stands there drooling at his brilliant football moves, lol.
As for changing coaches more than any other owner, that is A) not proof of competence in any way and B ) hardly factual when you look at how often other lousy owners like Haslam and Snyder change coaches. Haslam does it almost yearly, lol.
You get the right gm and you can build a winner and won't take 16 years of fiddling around. Take San Francisco as a case in point. But every organization is only as good as whomever owns it. That's why some never succeed and IMHO that's where the Vikings reside and will continue to do so. Organizationally they are too attached to over the hill players and a coach whose ceiling has been located and it ain't a SB win.
So you counter dict yourself. The Wilfs bought the team in 2005 so they just completed their 15th year. Spielman was the first true GM since Mike Lynn and we all know why he was ousted.
Yet here you are calling for a coaching changes and calling out the ownership.
Nope most of these super star GM's have taken over losing teams and had the benefit of the drafts that come with losing. I for one would be pissed if we had 4 consecutive losing seasons and 5 year drought between playoff appearances just to draft the guy. The Rams were absent 12 years prior to making it to the playoff 2 years in a row yet they missed this year. As to hanging onto aging players this is where the chess game happens. If you are going to trade or outright release guys better have a very low falloff or better player in the wings.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ Canthony said:
I would rather lose Rick over Paton to be honest.
You know enough of their division of responsibility, management styles, and the personnel decisions each made to actually state a preference? I didn't think so. But make no mistake, Paton is a highly sought after exec for one reason: Rick Spielman.
I believe he works closer with the scouting department and I like that. We have been drafting really well and I like to credit that more to Paton as he works directly with the scouting department. I just think and like that he is more hands on with the scouting team as he oversees that for the Vikings. He has done really well as well with finding players for this team. He also has a huge hand in when it comes to draft time.
I think Paton is more valuable than Rick in my opinion.
Quote: @Canthony said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ Canthony said:
I would rather lose Rick over Paton to be honest.
You know enough of their division of responsibility, management styles, and the personnel decisions each made to actually state a preference? I didn't think so. But make no mistake, Paton is a highly sought after exec for one reason: Rick Spielman.
I believe he works closer with the scouting department and I like that. We have been drafting really well and I like to credit that more to Paton as he works directly with the scouting department. I just think and like that he is more hands on with the scouting team as he oversees that for the Vikings. He has done really well as well with finding players for this team. He also has a huge hand in when it comes to draft time.
I think Paton is more valuable than Rick in my opinion.
And you know this how?
You don't. There has never been any sort of public distinction made between their responsibilities--something that even remotely suggests Paton is the one responsible for decision A and Spielman for decision B. So to think otherwise smacks of more Jersey-level, sports radio, anti-Spielman nonsense. Might as well just come out and blame Spielman for Ponder and Treadwell and give Paton credit for Diggs, Cook, Thielen, Irv, O'Neill, Harry, Harris, Kendricks and Hunter.
The only thing we know for sure is that Rick Spielman spends half the year in college bleachers and not in his office, acting more as a scout than an executive. I could be wrong, but I don't know that I've ever seen Paton on the sidelines or in the bleachers on Saturday afternoons. And even if he does, Spielman is the one who makes the final call on all personnel decisions, so for better or worse, he should (and does) get the credit for those decisions, good and bad. That's just the way it works.
Now, I don't want to sell Paton short. Clearly he's been doing this a long time, has moved up the ranks and has earned the opportunity to be a GM in the NFL. But use your common sense. If you're an assistant exec and you feel you're the one mostly responsible for all your boss's great decisions, yet he continues to get all the credit, do you stick with that boss for 23 years, moving from Chicago to Miami to Minnesota, withdrawing your name from several other GM opps to continue working with him? Of course not.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ Canthony said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ Canthony said:
I would rather lose Rick over Paton to be honest.
You know enough of their division of responsibility, management styles, and the personnel decisions each made to actually state a preference? I didn't think so. But make no mistake, Paton is a highly sought after exec for one reason: Rick Spielman.
I believe he works closer with the scouting department and I like that. We have been drafting really well and I like to credit that more to Paton as he works directly with the scouting department. I just think and like that he is more hands on with the scouting team as he oversees that for the Vikings. He has done really well as well with finding players for this team. He also has a huge hand in when it comes to draft time.
I think Paton is more valuable than Rick in my opinion.
And you know this how?
You don't. There has never been any sort of public distinction made between their responsibilities--something that even remotely suggests Paton is the one responsible for decision A and Spielman for decision B. So to think otherwise smacks of more Jersey-level, sports radio, anti-Spielman nonsense. Might as well just come out and blame Spielman for Ponder and Treadwell and give Paton credit for Diggs, Cook, Thielen, Irv, O'Neill, Harry, Harris, Kendricks and Hunter.
The only thing we know for sure is that Rick Spielman spends half the year in college bleachers and not in his office, acting more as a scout than an executive. I could be wrong, but I don't know that I've ever seen Paton on the sidelines or in the bleachers on Saturday afternoons. And even if he does, Spielman is the one who makes the final call on all personnel decisions, so for better or worse, he should (and does) get the credit for those decisions, good and bad. That's just the way it works.
Now, I don't want to sell Paton short. Clearly he's been doing this a long time, has moved up the ranks and has earned the opportunity to be a GM in the NFL. But use your common sense. If you're an assistant exec and you feel you're the one mostly responsible for all your boss's great decisions, yet he continues to get all the credit, do you stick with that boss for 23 years, moving from Chicago to Miami to Minnesota, withdrawing your name from several other GM opps to continue working with him? Of course not.
I mean no disrespect, but to simply say I have no chance of knowing is a bit arrogant. Which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion. I have my thoughts on it and what I do know of the situation.
I have no clue why he hasn't taken other jobs or why he has withdrawn his name. Maybe they made him a pay offer that was worth it for him to stay. I believe he is that important to this org. I may be wrong, but in my opinion I am not. I am not saying he is only responsible for all the big picks we have made. I am saying he may be more involved in finding these guys for Rick and really scouting them before giving them to Rick.
And yet you provide not a single shred of evidence to support your claim. Interesting.
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