Quote: @Jor-El said:
Sure the defense should be credited for the times they made good stops.But I also think it's fair to hold the defense to a very high standard / expectaion- and then point out when they don't meet that expectation. Zimmer was hired to build a great defense and has been given every asset he wanted for that unit. It's amped up by hearing every announcer declare that he is a defensive genius.
Another issue with defensive expectations is that this unit usually seems to be competent but schemed to play a "bend don't break" approach. Zimmer's defense rarely appears to be an attacking unit that can intimidate opponents and take over the momentum of a game. since Zimmer took over in 2014, we have not finished a season in the top 10 in interceptions, and never even in the top 20 for forced fumbles. We've had good sack stats but go for stretches without getting consistent pressure. How many defensive scores have Zimmer's units delivered?
Truly dominating defensive units win games for their teams. When the Broncos won the SB a few years ago, they had games where they scored less than 20 points, sometimes including defensive scores. But we have a "defensive genius" and every loss is followed by blaming our offense.
But what are you comparing this defense to? It can't be the other NFL teams because this defense is consistently at the top under Zimmer. And it is again so far this year. I would say ranking in the top 5 between 2016-2018 would be considered a damn good defense lead by a defensive genius, no? I mean I'm sure you see the scores of other games. The Vikings are one of the best defenses in the NFL. That's it. Stop right there. The Vikings defense is averaging giving up 17.6 points per game and that's with a few garbage time scores (Falcons and Raiders). Yes, some teams are going to score more than that. It happens.
They just beat the Redskins when the offense only scored 19. The defense is the reason that games against poor opponents go so well (multiple turnovers, great 3rd down conversion %, high 3-and-out rate). Isn't this moving the goal posts a bit? Now, it's not just that the defense has to be one of the best in the NFL, they have to be one of the historically great defenses year in and year out. Are we that spoiled?
Every team this defense has faced this year, except for the Lions, has been held under their scoring average. The defense was the main reason for at least 4 of the wins this year. If you want to go back to last year, off the top of my head, the defense was the main reason for wins agains SF (offense scored 17 and here's one of your defensive scores), Eagles (offense scored 17 and here's one of your defensive scores), Jets (I think the defense forced 4 turnovers) and Lions x2 (9 points each game). Go back to 2015-2017. The defense was a huge part of all of those wins also. Several where the offense didn't score 20.
It is the offense that's the problem. Either sustain drives (no 6 3-and-out games or multiple turnovers; think Chiefs, Bears and Packers this year and damn near every loss last year) or outscore these bad defenses. The rules favor the offense.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
And SilverJoel I'll say it again. Green Bay leads the NFL in number of plays given up over 40 yards. That is not a good yardstick for this Defense.
Interestingly, Kansas City media pointed to the GB game as a reason why Moore would struggle against Minnesota. The Packers played straight vanilla Defense the whole game, something Defensive Guru Mike Zimmer would never do. They expected Double A gap looks and Harry faking and coming on blitzes to confuse Moore and were convinced he would struggle.
Instead, Zimmer was as vanilla as GB. Folks here can't believe how Minnesota seemed content to rush 4 and play zone play after play. It was taylormade for Moore. 7 total blitzes. 7. And very little in the way of fake blitzes. Great job Mike.
https://www.twitter.com/PFF_Chiefs/statu...9341713410
Under pressure against the Vikings:
https://www.twitter.com/ChiefsReporter/s...1814048773
Keep in mind that the defense forced 2 fumbles by Moore, just didn't get them.
5 First Round Draft Picks. 2 Second Round Draft Picks. 2 Third Round Draft Picks. 7 contract extensions. Most of the Starters in place for the 3td straight year.
16th in Time of Possession. 25th in Pass Completion. 21st in Passing TDs. 17th in Rushing Yards per Attempt, despite being 7th in Rushing Attempts Against per game.
Yes, Cousins didn't play up to the level needed. The Defense didn't either. Longest TD run in Chiefs history. 2nd & 21 and they give up a 17 yard completion. 40 and 30 yard receptions by Hill. That's not good Defense no matter how you try to defend it.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
5 First Round Draft Picks. 2 Second Round Draft Picks. 2 Third Round Draft Picks. 7 contract extensions. Most of the Starters in place for the 3td straight year.
16th in Time of Possession. 25th in Pass Completion. 21st in Passing TDs. 17th in Rushing Yards per Attempt, despite being 7th in Rushing Attempts Against per game.
Yes, Cousins didn't play up to the level needed. The Defense didn't either. Longest TD run in Chiefs history. 2nd & 21 and they give up a 17 yard completion. 40 and 30 yard receptions by Hill. That's not good Defense no matter how you try to defend it.
That's cherry picking. Like I mentioned, the D has only allowed 158 points, 5th best in the NFL. And since Zimmer has been here, the D has been straight up amazing. Its not even a debate. The problem is the offense has never been clutch. Minnesota could have won every game this year outside of the Bears with a few offensive plays when needed....and they've had time and possessions to do so.
There is ebb and flow to every NFL game. While the defense hasn't been perfect or to the level we are now used to as Viking's fans, its been more than good enough to win games. But the offense hasn't held up their end of the bargain. They wilt under the hot sun of pressurized situations. It's guaranteed. And the offensive line although better is still inconsistent. And I say all this believing that Minnesota will very likely miss the playoffs. Which is really something considering what they ponied up for Cousins. 2 years with Kirk = no playoff appearances.
Lots of good posts in this thread. Plenty of blame to go around for what looks like will be a 9 win season +/- 1
Injuries aside, this is why it's so damn hard to get a read on this team.
The scheme and coaching is deserved of scrutiny and I think we as fans are over-rating the quality of players on the roster.
Blue Chippers:
Dalvin
Thielen
Diggs
Kendricks
Barr
Hunter
No OL, No QB, No Secondary, No TE, 1 DL
Harrison Smith is in a long list of players either being used wrong, over their peak or not playing great. Griffen is starting his December swoon early this year.
For Jimmy, as for some reason if I reply to someone I get the huge gray streak.
Per
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/b...kan.htm?sr&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool#passing_advanced
Cousins had 13 bad throws for a percentage of 34.2 of his passes.
Trubisky's worse game, percentage wise, this year was the last game at 23.8% (5 bad throws). His most in a game this year was 11 at 20.4% against the Saints.
Now, because this is a sensitive subject, I'm not saying Cousins shouldn't ever have a bad throw or that he was the only reason for the loss. That's really bad though and was definitely a major factor.
Every part of the team was off.
So how do they get some mojo going in Dallas?
I'm a big critic of playing so much Zone but I kind of like it on Sunday night. Dak has always struck me as a 'see guy open throw ball' guy vs. a guy that will throw dudes open.
Rhodes/Waynes look incapable of covering Cooper. Not sure Hughes is ready to single up a legit #1 WR yet. So I kinda like Zone looks to confuse Dak.
But Zimmer MUST do more with his scheme at the LOS. That vanilla shit that didn't work against a banged up Chiefs Line is sure as hell not going to cut against Dallas's far better talent.
Smith is going to need to stay in the box to help with Zeke anyways. Might as well use him to mess with Dak even if he doesn't actually blitz. Might see some Mac Corner blitzes and A Gap stuff. This would also be a good time to see 4 DEs on 3rd and Long or have Barr at the LOS.
Stefanski needs to step it up too. Dallas has a better D-Line than Kansas City. I don't expect Dalvin to get untracked early. And Play Action doesn't exactly fool a Defense that doesn't respect the Run.
Maybe some quick hitters early? Underneath stuff on short routes. They have aggressive CBs and the LBs are crazy athletic but not necessarily great in coverage.
Gonna need to pass to open up the run. But I'd at least hand the ball off the 1st two plays even if Dallas stacks the box just to make sure the O-Line is truly at a disadvantage. 2nd series would be the time to start opening up the passing game with lots of short throws.
What do you folks think the plan of attack should be?
If Minnesota gets behind, which they will likely do without Joseph in the middle and they'll run the shit out of Zeke, that's the ball game. Vikings won't be able to do anything they want if they are behind 10+ points. And I have the feeling the TOP is going to favor Dallas big time. This has all the earmarks of an ugly SNF game.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ FSUVike said:
5 First Round Draft Picks. 2 Second Round Draft Picks. 2 Third Round Draft Picks. 7 contract extensions. Most of the Starters in place for the 3td straight year.
16th in Time of Possession. 25th in Pass Completion. 21st in Passing TDs. 17th in Rushing Yards per Attempt, despite being 7th in Rushing Attempts Against per game.
Yes, Cousins didn't play up to the level needed. The Defense didn't either. Longest TD run in Chiefs history. 2nd & 21 and they give up a 17 yard completion. 40 and 30 yard receptions by Hill. That's not good Defense no matter how you try to defend it.
That's cherry picking. Like I mentioned, the D has only allowed 158 points, 5th best in the NFL. And since Zimmer has been here, the D has been straight up amazing. Its not even a debate. The problem is the offense has never been clutch. Minnesota could have won every game this year outside of the Bears with a few offensive plays when needed....and they've had time and possessions to do so.
There is ebb and flow to every NFL game. While the defense hasn't been perfect or to the level we are now used to as Viking's fans, its been more than good enough to win games. But the offense hasn't held up their end of the bargain. They wilt under the hot sun of pressurized situations. It's guaranteed. And the offensive line although better is still inconsistent. And I say all this believing that Minnesota will very likely miss the playoffs. Which is really something considering what they ponied up for Cousins. 2 years with Kirk = no playoff appearances.
The defense does rank high in several categories and many people bring it up when they do not get the job done like against the Chiefs. Some folks even say things like "besides the one TD pass to Hill and the 91 yd TD run" the defense was great.
That is like saying "besides the pick 6 Cousins threw he played great". Many people who make this argument (not saying you have) would be crucifying Cousins for a pick 6.
Despite the defense's really good metrics, they are really really awful in must win games.
People can quote all the metrics they want but the only one important to me is how they do in win or go home games.
In 2017, they let Nick Foles throw for over 300 yards with 3 TDs and got shellacked 38-7 (7 points came because of the offense).
In 2018, they let the Bears dominate them going on 3 long scoring drives (2 in the first half when they were not tired) and run 37 times for 167 yards. They ended up losing and not making the playoffs. The offense was not good in this game but who really thought they would be after the first Bears game. No, this was a game the defense really needed to step up in give their best performance of the year.
Since Zimmer has been here, the defense is terrible in games they MUST win.
Quote: @MarkSP18 said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ FSUVike said:
5 First Round Draft Picks. 2 Second Round Draft Picks. 2 Third Round Draft Picks. 7 contract extensions. Most of the Starters in place for the 3td straight year.
16th in Time of Possession. 25th in Pass Completion. 21st in Passing TDs. 17th in Rushing Yards per Attempt, despite being 7th in Rushing Attempts Against per game.
Yes, Cousins didn't play up to the level needed. The Defense didn't either. Longest TD run in Chiefs history. 2nd & 21 and they give up a 17 yard completion. 40 and 30 yard receptions by Hill. That's not good Defense no matter how you try to defend it.
That's cherry picking. Like I mentioned, the D has only allowed 158 points, 5th best in the NFL. And since Zimmer has been here, the D has been straight up amazing. Its not even a debate. The problem is the offense has never been clutch. Minnesota could have won every game this year outside of the Bears with a few offensive plays when needed....and they've had time and possessions to do so.
There is ebb and flow to every NFL game. While the defense hasn't been perfect or to the level we are now used to as Viking's fans, its been more than good enough to win games. But the offense hasn't held up their end of the bargain. They wilt under the hot sun of pressurized situations. It's guaranteed. And the offensive line although better is still inconsistent. And I say all this believing that Minnesota will very likely miss the playoffs. Which is really something considering what they ponied up for Cousins. 2 years with Kirk = no playoff appearances.
The defense does rank high in several categories and many people bring it up when they do not get the job done like against the Chiefs. Some folks even say things like "besides the one TD pass to Hill and the 91 yd TD run" the defense was great.
That is like saying "besides the pick 6 Cousins threw he played great". Many people who make this argument (not saying you have) would be crucifying Cousins for a pick 6.
Despite the defense's really good metrics, they are really really awful in must win games.
People can quote all the metrics they want but the only one important to me is how they do in win or go home games.
In 2017, they let Nick Foles throw for over 300 yards with 3 TDs and got shellacked 38-7 (7 points came because of the offense).
In 2018, they let the Bears dominate them going on 3 long scoring drives (2 in the first half when they were not tired) and run 37 times for 167 yards. They ended up losing and not making the playoffs. The offense was not good in this game but who really thought they would be after the first Bears game. No, this was a game the defense really needed to step up in give their best performance of the year.
Since Zimmer has been here, the defense is terrible in games they MUST win.
Not debating that at all. Totally agree. This team is horrible winning important games. In fact, they don't win them.
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