Quote: @TBro said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ TBro said:
@"Geoff Nichols"
I would hop on this take. Is it possible they find another late round gem? Sure. But no way in heck would they be putting all of their eggs in that basket. If they knew Diggs would be the player he developed into they would have taken him before MyCole Pruitt and T.J. Clemmings. Nobody will call it luck, but its an educated guess based on scouting. Thielen would fall into the same category, but I give AT a lot more credit for his own self-development.
If you took ever single asset (maybe even more) and traded up for Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs and knew for fact they'd have a similar impact its an easy decision. Simply because they net neutral on assets and saved $9M against the cap per season for the next 4 years.
I'm not suggesting we wait until the 5th round to address our need at WR, I was just pointing out that example. Diggs was an amazing find. With a deep class this year, I would rather address both lines and our DB needs with those first round picks and come back in the 2nd or 3rd to add WR talent. Unless Lamb, Jeudy, or Ruggs falls to us at 22, none of these other WR's that are getting first round hype at our draft position are worthy to be taken that high IMO. I see a lot of mocks giving us Jefferson or Mims at 22 with some really good defensive talent like Epenesa, Chaisson, T. Diggs, getting pushed down the board. There are plenty of second Tier WR's we could get in the second or third that wouldn't be a huge drop off in talent with how deep this class is. For a team that wants to feature Cook and had to trade Diggs because he wasn't happy with his role in the passing game, why do we want to invest a first round pick in these overhyped receivers who aren't even ranked in the overall top 32? We lost 5 DB's including 3 starters. With some of the updated Mocks I'm seeing and the defensive talent available, I would take Espenesa at 22, and come back with Tre Diggs at 25 and be thrilled with the value we got. By the way, T. Diggs can also fill our Punt Returner role.
You and I evaluate talent far differently. Epenesa has like 2 pass rush moves at best and many project that he might end up inside as a 3T instead. And yet, for all that he is generally considered a better prospect than Chaisson. Diggs is not a true 1st Round CB. Talent is there, performance isn't. After Okuda and Henderson there really isn't 1 CB that has elevated himself above the rest.
Jefferson is far more polished of a route runner than Mims. And he's interchangeable between Slot and Outside, which helps Thielen. I think there's a Big 4 at WR, not just the 3 guys.
And Geoff already did a fantastic breakdown of what a complete and utter fallacy it is to say you don't need 2 good WRs in a Kubiak led Offense that is run first. Let alone the fact that he had 2 thousand yard Receivers on his Super Bowl team. Or the fact that there is ZERO deep threat on this Roster right now that can take the top off of a Defense and force to not stack the box to stop Cook and double Thielen.
Now, the better value may well be in the 3rd for WR. Just like CB.
I think the smart play is the one Geoff already mentioned. Use 22 and some ammo to move up for Wirfs or Kinlaw. Fix the trenches first by adding a true Blue Chip Player. All this talk about trading down or standing pat means you're trying to plug every hole with 'pretty good' players. That's the kind of thinking that will keep this team in 9-7 purgatory.
The reality is that the team is not going to fill every single hole this offseason. So start by adding a virtual can't-miss guy. Then use 25 to trade back to plug a few more holes and/or move some ammo to next year.
Coming out of this Draft I want to know either LT or 3T is fixed for years to come. Not hope that one of those spots is filled with lesser talent.
What makes Epenesa special is that he played both 3T and DE at Iowa and would give us that flexibility to move him around the line which is something I don't think you could do with Gross-Matos. We desperately need an interior DL who can rush the passer and if Epenesa is there at 22 I would be very happy with that selection and why I'm using your 3T argument about him as a reason we should draft him. Patterson will develop his pass rushing skills in addition to what he has. I don't disagree with you on the need for a 2nd WR and the importance that role is to the offense, but I don't understand all the excitement of wanting to burn a first on Jefferson or Mims who will take a year or two to develop with the hope they can build up to Diggs level of productivity in a run fist scheme. In a weaker WR draft like last year, AJ Brown and DK Metcalf were solid contributors and great value in the 2nd round. That's my reasoning for not wanting to gamble one of those 1st round picks on a WR because I'm not convinced that outside of Lamb, Jeudy, or Ruggs that the fringe 1st round leftovers are worth it but Rick may feel differently. Bottom line is that we have so many holes that need starters right now, I don't think even Rick will screw this up unless he tries to outsmart everyone else with constantly trading down.
That is a very interesting idea. Epenesa is the base RDE rotating heavily with Fedi and they both rotate at 3T with Watts. You have all of them out there with Hunter on obvious passing downs. And you're right about Dre being able to coach him up.
I do think lumping Jefferson with Mins is a mistake. Mims is a typical Baylor guy who ran a very limited route tree. Jefferson is far more advanced in that area. I also disagree with the DN evaluation that Barrnone posted that he's strictly a Slot WR. He logged plenty of snaps on the Outside IIRC.
In my evaluation, this is the deepest Receiver Receiver Draft ever...if you want a high floor kid who's ceiling is WR2. Which is fine for now. But as Maroon pointed out, Adam is over 30. I see 4 guys with WR1 ceilings: Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs/Jefferson. Mims has that ceiling but a much, much lower floor.
IF there's a chance you get that guy with a clear WR1 ceiling you need to take him at 22. Might be a long time before Minnesota gets a chance at another one in the Draft unless they luck out ala Diggs.
The other option would be to double-dip in the 2nd & 3rd and give yourself two cracks at it. There's so many talented kids that some of them are bound to become WR1 down the road. Not sure I trust the FO to figure out which ones have that potential with one pick but with two...There's also the new WR Coach. Wonder how much Rick's bad Receiver picks of the past were influenced by the position coach.
@ FSUVike Jefferson definitely is not just a slot option... I'm not in lock step with everything thing I post, rather I am providing content related to the topic on hand...
That being said, IIRC, Jefferson's snaps from the slot over the last two years is around 1k, outside around 500.
@CheckTDown has a lot of content on Higgins.
Quote: @MarkSP18 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
If it is me, I am trading a 3rd this year and a conditional pick in 2021 (4th) for Trent Williams.
Reiff would get released.
I would trade UP to go get Ruggs III. You cannot teach 4.29 speed.
That would open up a lot of underneath routes.
why would you cut arguably the second best OL on your team? why not look to move him inside or trade him, LTs dont grow on trees and Reiff is pretty affordable for what he does. cutting him is pretty short sighted IMO.
I would love to see them trade him but I am not even going to try and speculate who would want him.
If I get Williams then I do not want to pay Reiff what he is getting and absorb that cap hit to find out IF he can play left guard which he has not done in over a decade.
I'm kind of funny in that I like players who actually played the position recently.
considering the the amount of missed games for Williams that is a funny position to take on this matter.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ TBro said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ TBro said:
@"Geoff Nichols"
I would hop on this take. Is it possible they find another late round gem? Sure. But no way in heck would they be putting all of their eggs in that basket. If they knew Diggs would be the player he developed into they would have taken him before MyCole Pruitt and T.J. Clemmings. Nobody will call it luck, but its an educated guess based on scouting. Thielen would fall into the same category, but I give AT a lot more credit for his own self-development.
If you took ever single asset (maybe even more) and traded up for Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs and knew for fact they'd have a similar impact its an easy decision. Simply because they net neutral on assets and saved $9M against the cap per season for the next 4 years.
I'm not suggesting we wait until the 5th round to address our need at WR, I was just pointing out that example. Diggs was an amazing find. With a deep class this year, I would rather address both lines and our DB needs with those first round picks and come back in the 2nd or 3rd to add WR talent. Unless Lamb, Jeudy, or Ruggs falls to us at 22, none of these other WR's that are getting first round hype at our draft position are worthy to be taken that high IMO. I see a lot of mocks giving us Jefferson or Mims at 22 with some really good defensive talent like Epenesa, Chaisson, T. Diggs, getting pushed down the board. There are plenty of second Tier WR's we could get in the second or third that wouldn't be a huge drop off in talent with how deep this class is. For a team that wants to feature Cook and had to trade Diggs because he wasn't happy with his role in the passing game, why do we want to invest a first round pick in these overhyped receivers who aren't even ranked in the overall top 32? We lost 5 DB's including 3 starters. With some of the updated Mocks I'm seeing and the defensive talent available, I would take Espenesa at 22, and come back with Tre Diggs at 25 and be thrilled with the value we got. By the way, T. Diggs can also fill our Punt Returner role.
You and I evaluate talent far differently. Epenesa has like 2 pass rush moves at best and many project that he might end up inside as a 3T instead. And yet, for all that he is generally considered a better prospect than Chaisson. Diggs is not a true 1st Round CB. Talent is there, performance isn't. After Okuda and Henderson there really isn't 1 CB that has elevated himself above the rest.
Jefferson is far more polished of a route runner than Mims. And he's interchangeable between Slot and Outside, which helps Thielen. I think there's a Big 4 at WR, not just the 3 guys.
And Geoff already did a fantastic breakdown of what a complete and utter fallacy it is to say you don't need 2 good WRs in a Kubiak led Offense that is run first. Let alone the fact that he had 2 thousand yard Receivers on his Super Bowl team. Or the fact that there is ZERO deep threat on this Roster right now that can take the top off of a Defense and force to not stack the box to stop Cook and double Thielen.
Now, the better value may well be in the 3rd for WR. Just like CB.
I think the smart play is the one Geoff already mentioned. Use 22 and some ammo to move up for Wirfs or Kinlaw. Fix the trenches first by adding a true Blue Chip Player. All this talk about trading down or standing pat means you're trying to plug every hole with 'pretty good' players. That's the kind of thinking that will keep this team in 9-7 purgatory.
The reality is that the team is not going to fill every single hole this offseason. So start by adding a virtual can't-miss guy. Then use 25 to trade back to plug a few more holes and/or move some ammo to next year.
Coming out of this Draft I want to know either LT or 3T is fixed for years to come. Not hope that one of those spots is filled with lesser talent.
What makes Epenesa special is that he played both 3T and DE at Iowa and would give us that flexibility to move him around the line which is something I don't think you could do with Gross-Matos. We desperately need an interior DL who can rush the passer and if Epenesa is there at 22 I would be very happy with that selection and why I'm using your 3T argument about him as a reason we should draft him. Patterson will develop his pass rushing skills in addition to what he has. I don't disagree with you on the need for a 2nd WR and the importance that role is to the offense, but I don't understand all the excitement of wanting to burn a first on Jefferson or Mims who will take a year or two to develop with the hope they can build up to Diggs level of productivity in a run fist scheme. In a weaker WR draft like last year, AJ Brown and DK Metcalf were solid contributors and great value in the 2nd round. That's my reasoning for not wanting to gamble one of those 1st round picks on a WR because I'm not convinced that outside of Lamb, Jeudy, or Ruggs that the fringe 1st round leftovers are worth it but Rick may feel differently. Bottom line is that we have so many holes that need starters right now, I don't think even Rick will screw this up unless he tries to outsmart everyone else with constantly trading down.
That is a very interesting idea. Epenesa is the base RDE rotating heavily with Fedi and they both rotate at 3T with Watts. You have all of them out there with Hunter on obvious passing downs. And you're right about Dre being able to coach him up.
I do think lumping Jefferson with Mins is a mistake. Mims is a typical Baylor guy who ran a very limited route tree. Jefferson is far more advanced in that area. I also disagree with the DN evaluation that Barrnone posted that he's strictly a Slot WR. He logged plenty of snaps on the Outside IIRC.
In my evaluation, this is the deepest Receiver Receiver Draft ever...if you want a high floor kid who's ceiling is WR2. Which is fine for now. But as Maroon pointed out, Adam is over 30. I see 4 guys with WR1 ceilings: Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs/Jefferson. Mims has that ceiling but a much, much lower floor.
IF there's a chance you get that guy with a clear WR1 ceiling you need to take him at 22. Might be a long time before Minnesota gets a chance at another one in the Draft unless they luck out ala Diggs.
The other option would be to double-dip in the 2nd & 3rd and give yourself two cracks at it. There's so many talented kids that some of them are bound to become WR1 down the road. Not sure I trust the FO to figure out which ones have that potential with one pick but with two...There's also the new WR Coach. Wonder how much Rick's bad Receiver picks of the past were influenced by the position coach.
I am very intrigued to see if Epenesa ends up being on the Vikings board. He doesn't fit their DE or DT testing thresholds exclusively but passes pieces of each. So do they look at the combination of the parts and include him or not? But then if you're looking for a rotational piece why wouldn't you just a take a more explosive 3T like Blacklock and double up on a freak developmental edge guy later in the draft?
Quote: @"BarrNone55" said:
@FSUVike Jefferson definitely is not just a slot option... I'm not in lock step with everything thing I post, rather I am providing content related to the topic on hand...
That being said, IIRC, Jefferson's snaps from the slot over the last two years is around 1k, outside around 500.
I read recently that Jefferson saw press coverage on just 106 snaps.
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