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03-09-2018, 02:26 PM

Quote: @Poiple said:

Kirk and Cousins? Is that James Thaddeus Kirk?

James Tiberius Kirk..

03-09-2018, 03:44 PM

Quote: @Jor-El said:

@Poiple said:

Kirk and Cousins? Is that James Thaddeus Kirk?
James Tiberius Kirk..

Even when they try to get cute they fail.

Here's something else they fail at: responding to specific Keenum critiques.

His mobility makes him special, they say. But it was the Offensive Line's fault for his performance in the Playoffs, not his, they say. So he's only mobile when the Line is good?

He's so accurate and doesn't turn the ball over, they say. But they're silent whenever I bring up the fact that Case had at least 6 Interceptions hit Defenders in the hands and were dropped (Zimmer's 'horseshoe').

And is he really the right kind of accurate? I mean the 'hit your two stud receivers in stride for YAC' accurate. Not the 'chuck up throws that look like punts that resulted in your two stud receivers ranking top five in contested catches and saving several from being picks' accurate.

But he's got that It Factor, they say. Which factor is that exactly? The one where he holds the ball too long and takes awful sacks that knock the team out of FG range? Or the one where he stares down his target and misses guys who are wide open? Or the one where he'd rather throw into coverage on early downs when the checkdown for four easy yards is uncovered?

Keep telling me I see only what I want to see while ignoring valid points raised by many posters.

Here's what I see. Case, with clearly the better team, failed to produce at the level Kirk did this year.

Keenum will get $20-22, Cousins will get $25-27. I'll pay the extra coin for the guy who's produced three straight years, warts and all, over the guy who's only produced once, warts and all.

03-09-2018, 03:47 PM

Quote: @Jor-El said:

@SmashmouthD said:

@Jor-El said:

@SmashmouthD said:

It's up for debate (ha!), but I think Teddy gives us the most production per dollar. Use the draft and the rest of the cap to improve the Lines, and let's go!
A lot of people are making arguments based on a "price" for Teddy Bridgewater that has no market basis, and I believe Bridgewater himself would not agree with any of the bargain rates which are assumed. Fans have argued that we can sign BOTH Bridgewater and Bradford for less than Cousins, or suggested numbers like $10M/year or less for Bridgewater.
Why would Bridgewater think he is worth so little? Here are 4 QBs who reached free agency after their rookie contracts:
Brock Osweiler: 7 career starts, 11 TDs, 6 INTs - 4 year contract for $18M/year

Mike Glennon: 18 career starts, 30 TDs, 15 INTs - 3 year contract for $15M/year

Jimmy Garoppolo: 7 career starts, 12 TDs, 5 INTs - 5 year contract for $27.5M/year

Teddy Bridgewater: 28 career starts, 28 TDs, 22 INTs

One of these is far more accomplished than the others, and also has an 11-5 season, playoff start, and +3,000 yard passing season on his resume. So why would Bridgewater and his agent say, "Oh thank you so much, Vikings, I'm delighted to sign a deal for half what Osweiler or Glennon got - even though the salary cap and QB salaries are even higher then when they signed!"
If Bridgewater had somehow hit free agency after his 2015 season, he would be offered contracts of $20M per year and above.
The only reason you can discount Teddy is if you believe he is damaged goods. If the Vikings have approached him with that kind of offer, he doesn't want it - he doesn't believe he is damaged goods. He is going to argue with other teams that he is 100% healthy and should be judged on his NFL achievements. Maybe he's fooling himself, but that's his right and he might find some team is impressed with his health and workouts and will give him a lot - at least more than $10M, which is a low salary by NFL starting quarterback standards.
The idea we could either have Cousins, or have Bridgewater PLUS an extra $20M in cap space, is unrealistic. No way Bridgewater would take a cheap deal unless every other team rejects him in free agency.

With any player, his market is his market. What is he likely to be offered that he will accept?

No doubt he's shown more than the other QBs you mention, other than Garoppolo. But it's the knee injury that will make other teams nervous.

I had in mind he'd sign a one-year deal with us for for $8-$12 million. Which would allow us to get an outside 3T signed, as well as all of our free agents.
He might sign that - but only if & after he finds out no team will give him $15M or more. That's starting QB money. Teddy started for 2 years, he thinks of himself as a starter, and many of his teammates reportedly tell him he should be a starter. No doubt his family, friends, and agent tell him he's a starter.

Funny thing is, his biggest fans think he's a starter, too - but most of them also think he should take the kind of contract that Nick Foles signed with the Eagles last year to backup Carson Wentz after being waived by two other teams! Come on - is he the QB of the Vikings' future or is he a bargain-bin project?

Nobody knows whether Teddy is the future or a bargin-bin project. That's why he would bet on himself with a one-year, team-friendly deal.

Personally, I think he's the future, but we really don't know. He will not be a top-5 QB in this league, but could be top-10. If we win with him, it's because we are doing it differently than all teams that rely on a QB and a "good enough" supporting cast. Instead, we would have a "good" QB who is an outstanding leader, and a great supporting cast that's well-coached.

It just feels like over-paying for Cousins is a mistake and runs against everything we've done to build this great team. I don't care what people say, if we want Cousins it will cost $30m per. Because that's what it will take to get him away from the Jets.

03-09-2018, 03:52 PM

Quote: @FSUVike said:

@Poiple said:

@FSUVike said:
So Poiple, three seasons of 4k yards and top 6 QBR posted by Cousins is mediocre. What does that make Keenum then?
Medicore, Tier 2.

what does it make him to you??
Tier 3. He had a better Everything around him than Kirk and Cousins still put up the better numbers.

Interesting that 4 NFL.GMs have targeted Cousins over Keenum but you have them as equals, isn't it?

Um, what? Cousins' numbers look better to you?

Cousins: 64.3% 4093 yards 27 TDs 13 INTs 93.9 rating 52.3 QBR (15th in NFL) 13 fumbles (!)

Keenum: 67.6% 3547 yards 22 TDs 7 INTs 98.3 rating 69.7 QBR (2nd in NFL) 1 fumble

Cousins had more yards and TDs (playing in 1.5 more games), but I don't think you would find anyone who would say that Cousins had better numbers or played better than Keenum last year.

03-09-2018, 04:38 PM

I've found plenty. In the media, on here. But more importantly in the NFL. I've yet to hear a GM of a team needing a QB declare that Keenum is their first choice. Why do you suppose that is?

03-09-2018, 04:42 PM

Quote: @SFVikingFan said:

@FSUVike said:

@Poiple said:

@FSUVike said:
So Poiple, three seasons of 4k yards and top 6 QBR posted by Cousins is mediocre. What does that make Keenum then?
Medicore, Tier 2.

what does it make him to you??
Tier 3. He had a better Everything around him than Kirk and Cousins still put up the better numbers.

Interesting that 4 NFL.GMs have targeted Cousins over Keenum but you have them as equals, isn't it?
Um, what? Cousins' numbers look better to you?

Cousins: 64.3% 4093 yards 27 TDs 13 INTs 93.9 rating 52.3 QBR (15th in NFL) 13 fumbles (!)

Keenum: 67.6% 3547 yards 22 TDs 7 INTs 98.3 rating 69.7 QBR (2nd in NFL) 1 fumble

Cousins had more yards and TDs (playing in 1.5 more games), but I don't think you would find anyone who would say that Cousins had better numbers or played better than Keenum last year.

Last years' numbers are what they are. Cousins also did not have Thielen and Diggs and did not have the same kind of running game. So if you want to ignore that then the numbers make sense.

If you include the last 3 years how do the numbers look?

03-09-2018, 05:00 PM

Quote: @SFVikingFan said:

@FSUVike said:

@Poiple said:

@FSUVike said:
So Poiple, three seasons of 4k yards and top 6 QBR posted by Cousins is mediocre. What does that make Keenum then?
Medicore, Tier 2.

what does it make him to you??
Tier 3. He had a better Everything around him than Kirk and Cousins still put up the better numbers.

Interesting that 4 NFL.GMs have targeted Cousins over Keenum but you have them as equals, isn't it?
Um, what? Cousins' numbers look better to you?

Cousins: 64.3% 4093 yards 27 TDs 13 INTs 93.9 rating 52.3 QBR (15th in NFL) 13 fumbles (!)

Keenum: 67.6% 3547 yards 22 TDs 7 INTs 98.3 rating 69.7 QBR (2nd in NFL) 1 fumble

Cousins had more yards and TDs (playing in 1.5 more games), but I don't think you would find anyone who would say that Cousins had better numbers or played better than Keenum last year.

03-09-2018, 07:36 PM

Quote: @Wetlander said:

@Sir Viking Bob VWO said:

These offensive skilled players had their career years because of Bradford throwing them the ball, they didn't make Bradford better..... But I agree with you on Cousins being our best option
Uh, Diggs and Thielen had career years this past season with Keenum under center... not Bradford.

you may want to go back and look at what they did in 2016 with Bradford compared to any previous year.... 4 players had career highs that year with Bradford, they may have since been increased last season, but before 2016 with Sam, they were not much to talk about

03-09-2018, 08:41 PM

Quote: @SmashmouthD said:

@Jor-El said:

@SmashmouthD said:

@Jor-El said:

@SmashmouthD said:

It's up for debate (ha!), but I think Teddy gives us the most production per dollar. Use the draft and the rest of the cap to improve the Lines, and let's go!
A lot of people are making arguments based on a "price" for Teddy Bridgewater that has no market basis, and I believe Bridgewater himself would not agree with any of the bargain rates which are assumed. Fans have argued that we can sign BOTH Bridgewater and Bradford for less than Cousins, or suggested numbers like $10M/year or less for Bridgewater.
Why would Bridgewater think he is worth so little? Here are 4 QBs who reached free agency after their rookie contracts:
Brock Osweiler: 7 career starts, 11 TDs, 6 INTs - 4 year contract for $18M/year

Mike Glennon: 18 career starts, 30 TDs, 15 INTs - 3 year contract for $15M/year

Jimmy Garoppolo: 7 career starts, 12 TDs, 5 INTs - 5 year contract for $27.5M/year

Teddy Bridgewater: 28 career starts, 28 TDs, 22 INTs

One of these is far more accomplished than the others, and also has an 11-5 season, playoff start, and +3,000 yard passing season on his resume. So why would Bridgewater and his agent say, "Oh thank you so much, Vikings, I'm delighted to sign a deal for half what Osweiler or Glennon got - even though the salary cap and QB salaries are even higher then when they signed!"
If Bridgewater had somehow hit free agency after his 2015 season, he would be offered contracts of $20M per year and above.
The only reason you can discount Teddy is if you believe he is damaged goods. If the Vikings have approached him with that kind of offer, he doesn't want it - he doesn't believe he is damaged goods. He is going to argue with other teams that he is 100% healthy and should be judged on his NFL achievements. Maybe he's fooling himself, but that's his right and he might find some team is impressed with his health and workouts and will give him a lot - at least more than $10M, which is a low salary by NFL starting quarterback standards.
The idea we could either have Cousins, or have Bridgewater PLUS an extra $20M in cap space, is unrealistic. No way Bridgewater would take a cheap deal unless every other team rejects him in free agency.

With any player, his market is his market. What is he likely to be offered that he will accept?

No doubt he's shown more than the other QBs you mention, other than Garoppolo. But it's the knee injury that will make other teams nervous.

I had in mind he'd sign a one-year deal with us for for $8-$12 million. Which would allow us to get an outside 3T signed, as well as all of our free agents.
He might sign that - but only if & after he finds out no team will give him $15M or more. That's starting QB money. Teddy started for 2 years, he thinks of himself as a starter, and many of his teammates reportedly tell him he should be a starter. No doubt his family, friends, and agent tell him he's a starter.

Funny thing is, his biggest fans think he's a starter, too - but most of them also think he should take the kind of contract that Nick Foles signed with the Eagles last year to backup Carson Wentz after being waived by two other teams! Come on - is he the QB of the Vikings' future or is he a bargain-bin project?

Nobody knows whether Teddy is the future or a bargin-bin project. That's why he would bet on himself with a one-year, team-friendly deal.

Clarify: do you mean that Bridgewater would take a 1-year, $12M deal from the Vikings, rather than a 3-year $45M deal from another team (like what the Bears gave Glennon)?
I don't see why, unless he tries to take some free agent visits next week and every other team tells his agent that they think Teddy is finished in the NFL / not worth the risk. If that happens, I don't really want to bet more on him than we wasted on Sharrif Floyd last season.
I don't mean to be rude, but I want to understand what scenario could put Bridgewater here at such a bargain. I think most of these "alternatives" - Teddy or Sam for $10M, Case for $18M - are just fan fantasies that aren't realistic.

03-09-2018, 09:38 PM

Quote: @Jor-El said:

@SmashmouthD said:

@Jor-El said:

@SmashmouthD said:

@Jor-El said:

@SmashmouthD said:

It's up for debate (ha!), but I think Teddy gives us the most production per dollar. Use the draft and the rest of the cap to improve the Lines, and let's go!
A lot of people are making arguments based on a "price" for Teddy Bridgewater that has no market basis, and I believe Bridgewater himself would not agree with any of the bargain rates which are assumed. Fans have argued that we can sign BOTH Bridgewater and Bradford for less than Cousins, or suggested numbers like $10M/year or less for Bridgewater.
Why would Bridgewater think he is worth so little? Here are 4 QBs who reached free agency after their rookie contracts:
Brock Osweiler: 7 career starts, 11 TDs, 6 INTs - 4 year contract for $18M/year

Mike Glennon: 18 career starts, 30 TDs, 15 INTs - 3 year contract for $15M/year

Jimmy Garoppolo: 7 career starts, 12 TDs, 5 INTs - 5 year contract for $27.5M/year

Teddy Bridgewater: 28 career starts, 28 TDs, 22 INTs

One of these is far more accomplished than the others, and also has an 11-5 season, playoff start, and +3,000 yard passing season on his resume. So why would Bridgewater and his agent say, "Oh thank you so much, Vikings, I'm delighted to sign a deal for half what Osweiler or Glennon got - even though the salary cap and QB salaries are even higher then when they signed!"
If Bridgewater had somehow hit free agency after his 2015 season, he would be offered contracts of $20M per year and above.
The only reason you can discount Teddy is if you believe he is damaged goods. If the Vikings have approached him with that kind of offer, he doesn't want it - he doesn't believe he is damaged goods. He is going to argue with other teams that he is 100% healthy and should be judged on his NFL achievements. Maybe he's fooling himself, but that's his right and he might find some team is impressed with his health and workouts and will give him a lot - at least more than $10M, which is a low salary by NFL starting quarterback standards.
The idea we could either have Cousins, or have Bridgewater PLUS an extra $20M in cap space, is unrealistic. No way Bridgewater would take a cheap deal unless every other team rejects him in free agency.

With any player, his market is his market. What is he likely to be offered that he will accept?

No doubt he's shown more than the other QBs you mention, other than Garoppolo. But it's the knee injury that will make other teams nervous.

I had in mind he'd sign a one-year deal with us for for $8-$12 million. Which would allow us to get an outside 3T signed, as well as all of our free agents.
He might sign that - but only if & after he finds out no team will give him $15M or more. That's starting QB money. Teddy started for 2 years, he thinks of himself as a starter, and many of his teammates reportedly tell him he should be a starter. No doubt his family, friends, and agent tell him he's a starter.

Funny thing is, his biggest fans think he's a starter, too - but most of them also think he should take the kind of contract that Nick Foles signed with the Eagles last year to backup Carson Wentz after being waived by two other teams! Come on - is he the QB of the Vikings' future or is he a bargain-bin project?

Nobody knows whether Teddy is the future or a bargin-bin project. That's why he would bet on himself with a one-year, team-friendly deal.

Clarify: do you mean that Bridgewater would take a 1-year, $12M deal from the Vikings, rather than a 3-year $45M deal from another team (like what the Bears gave Glennon)?
I don't see why, unless he tries to take some free agent visits next week and every other team tells his agent that they think Teddy is finished in the NFL / not worth the risk. If that happens, I don't really want to bet more on him than we wasted on Sharrif Floyd last season.
I don't mean to be rude, but I want to understand what scenario could put Bridgewater here at such a bargain. I think most of these "alternatives" - Teddy or Sam for $10M, Case for $18M - are just fan fantasies that aren't realistic.

I am predicting a RG3 type deal for Teddy.

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2016/3/25/...the-browns

Griffin's deal is considered to be 2 years for $15 million, with a maximum value of $22 million.

First, let's look at Griffin's guaranteed money. He received a $3.5 million signing bonus, which gets split over each year of the deal. His entire base salary for 2016 is also guaranteed. Therefore, he has $6.75 million in guaranteed money. If the Browns opt to cut Griffin next offseason, they'll only have to carry $1.75 million in dead money. Because his base salary this season is fully guaranteed, it's doubtful that the team would cut him after training camp this year.

Griffin can make per-game roster bonuses in 2016 and 2017 totaling $750,000 each season, or $46,875 per game. While it is unclear whether those bonuses kick in for starts or just appearances, I'd have to imagine it is for starts.

I do not see why Teddy would deserve more than RG3. He has the same injury concerns and you could argue his are worse.

Maybe Teddy could get 8 mil per year with incentives? Maybe?

That is all I would offer.