Quote: @Hidalgo said:
If the team hadn't got lucky with a 5th round WR and an undrafted WR, every fan would be calling for Zimmer and Spielman's heads.
Getting lucky on a couple of wide receivers is ALL that keeps us from being on the same page.o
No kidding - take away the sheer luck of Thielen and Diggs falling in our lap, and Cousins would be throwing to Cordarelle Patterson and Laquon Treadwell, the guys Rick Spielman thought would be superstar WRs.
Spielman defenders usually hold up Diggs and Thielen as examples of his personnel prowess, but they were just luck. If you really believe that Spielman "knew" Diggs was going to be a star, how do you explain that he passed him over 5 times, including for TJ Clemmings and MyCole Pruitt? "Hmmmm, there's a #1 WR still on the board, but I think his draft value is only round 5 so I will risk letting another team pick him so I can pick a scrub TE..."
No, it was dumb luck. Spielman has had 16 5th round picks in 10 years and Diggs is the only one to even stick with the team. It's just a blind squirrel.
I'm not calling for Zimmer's head - because he's at least above average and our last two HCs were well below that. But IF it ever came to him leaving, and Spielman wasn't riding out on the same rail, I would be at least as ticked as NJVike.
Quote: @96POPS said:
Oh yes, definitely I am Bullazin. I will not shy away from that. I have good reason to be. It was RS that had him cut and it reinforces the reason I am bitter. Coaches didn't want him gone. Spielman did and he rules.
Hey Pops, as a fan, it does suck BRob is gone. Especially when we really could use him due to the DLine depth issues stemming from Griffs absence. I've always been a fan of your son.
I'm curious though; why isn't Brian still playing? Was he "all in" with the Vikes, and only the Vikes? Has he gotten any offers from other teams? Seems strange a guy with Brian's reputation and skills isn't still playing.
Why is it considered lucky to draft a 5th rounder & or sign, & develop two great wide receivers or other great players? Finding & developing players should be praised, not held up as some sort of blind luck, The Vikings miss on some picks, as all teams do, but they’ve also shown a real ability to find & developed several good to great players, in lower rounds or even after the draft.
Yours,
John Randle
Quote: @Kentis said:
Why is it considered lucky to draft a 5th rounder & or sign, & develop two great wide receivers or other great players? Finding & developing players should be praised, not held up as some sort of blind luck, The Vikings miss on some picks, as all teams do, but they’ve also shown a real ability to find & developed several good to great players, in lower rounds or even after the draft.
Yours,
John Randle
I guess I am leaning towards this side of the argument. You can't insist all of his good picks were lucky, while also saying he should be held responsible for all of his bad ones.
All I know is that I believe that the Vikings easily have one of the most talented rosters in the NFL. That has to count for something when evaluating the GM's performance.
Quote: @HappyViking said:
@ 96POPS said:
Oh yes, definitely I am Bullazin. I will not shy away from that. I have good reason to be. It was RS that had him cut and it reinforces the reason I am bitter. Coaches didn't want him gone. Spielman did and he rules.
Hey Pops, as a fan, it does suck BRob is gone. Especially when we really could use him due to the DLine depth issues stemming from Griffs absence. I've always been a fan of your son.
I'm curious though; why isn't Brian still playing? Was he "all in" with the Vikes, and only the Vikes? Has he gotten any offers from other teams? Seems strange a guy with Brian's reputation and skills isn't still playing.
HV, Brian had an offer immediately after being release. However, he turned them down and told me he was going to be very picky as to who he played for for his last and final season. To tell you the truth I think he is still thinking that he may get a call from the Vikings. As for me, i don't think that call will ever come. RS isn't about to admit it was wrong.
And yes, Brian was all in with the Vikings. He played for less just to stay with them throughout his career. Yes he did hear of other teams that wanted him years ago but wanted to be a career long Viking more than chasing money and dragging his family all over the country.
I think he thought if he was loyal and stayed that they would allow him to finish his career with them.
We heard some rumors from a pretty reliable source and i won't go into that.
I can't fault the coaches. He loved his coaches and they loved him. They even told him that they didn't cut him.
He is willing to play but he's waiting on a team that fits his agenda for his last year.
It was pretty shitty of Ok tricky sick Rick to do what he did after Brian took pay cuts (this year being a huge cut) just to be able to finish where and what he started. Too old, might be what some people say but his coaches say he had his best TC this year, since they'd been there. So i guess that means he probably should have been gone 5 years ago., of that's true. Yeah he's too old to play. If that is true then why did they sign Tom Johnson back at 34? As you can tell I'm not over it and probably won't ever be. He took Brian's ability away to say goodbye to the fans. That's the hard part, if Rick was going to cut him then why ask him to take a pay cut. Yeah, I'm sorry I'm not buying the "It's a business" bullshit. You can still do business and not be a total dick!!
You had a loyal player that would have run through brick walls if the coaches told him to. He believed them when they asked him to do what was best for the team and not worry about stats. Yet, i guess someone wasn't on the same wave link as the coaches and used it against him.
Sorry for venting HV. I'll shut up now.
He did take a phone call from KFAN and PA when we were leaving Minny last Friday morning. He did get to say a goodbye to those that were listening.
Quote: @njvike said:
@ TBro said:
@ ArizonaViking said:
@ njvike said:
@ Jor-El said:
Hmm, the poster who generates the most automatic agreement (POPS96) and the poster who generates the most automatic disagreement (NJVike) are saying the same thing about a topic. A lot of knees must not know which way to jerk when they read this thread.
LOL! The Midwest Middle School gang can hate me all they want. I could not possibly care less. For all the tough talk and smarmy ass remarks about my vociferous criticism of Saint Richard, I notice that NONE of the Ryckophants has a response to my question as to WHY they have such blind faith in a GM that has 2 playoff wins to his credit in 13 years (and an equally pathetic record with his previous 2 teams). They just choose to commence with the personal attacks on me (simple minds, simple responses).
Why no reply to that GLARING issue? There is no logical reply, that's why. Any lame attempt to excuse it would be pathetic. Hence, kill the messenger!
As Pops stated, most GM's with such a horrendous playoff record would have been looooong gone. Certainly in big markets.
As far as Pops being bitter? I dont blame him one bit considering Slick Ricks latest screw job of Brian.
But it should be noted that Pop's issue with Schpielman go waaaay back to the beginning of Brian's Vikings tenure. His release did NOT initiate Pop's, shall we say, negative opinions of Ricky.
His FIRSTHAND experience dealing with RS carries a helluva lot more weight with me than the opinions of the weenies on here who blindly goosestep to whatever marching tune Schpielman broadcasts from Eagan/Winter Park.
Kudos to you, again, Pops. I appreciate an INTELLIGENT opinion!
Peace
Your right with your rhetoric factual statements regarding the Vikings playoff record, free agent signings and draft picks through the Spielman era. But simply put for the rest of us, good or bad. The Minnesota Vikings are our team. No matter how much you bad mouth the Vikings, it doesn't change anything, they are still our team. If the Vikings are such an embarrassment to you, move on. This year, next year, every year, we will still be here with the same hopes and excitement for our team. As usual, the Vikings will win some more games and you will go silent for a while until you see another opportunity to express you negative opinions. But that's alright with the rest of us, we don't give a shit either.
njvike,
As much as I enjoy your relenting criticism of Spielman, and much of it is well deserved, he and Zimmer have done some good things during their tenures so I think it would help your credibility if you would come on once in while when they are playing well to point out the things you like about the team to balance things out. I'm sure you have some very good opinions on other Non-Spielman related topics so it would be nice to see you post some of those once in a while.
I agree with you on POP's history with Spielman. This built up over time and all came to head with how it ended. Now we know if was the GM that wanted him gone and not the coaching staff so that definitely calls into question some of head scratching decisions by RS on personnel and the meddling POPS referred to.
Hey, TBro. First, thanks for your civil response. I don't know why my criticisms of Ricky result in so many PERSONAL attacks at me, but I guess it's just a case of "simple minds, simple reactions".
Have a nice evening.
Peace
Dude, I've never criticized you that I know of BUT its jackass comments like above that make people dislike you. People are welcome to their own opinion. Its theirs. Their opinion isn't necessarily wrong just because it differs from yours. Being a dick about your position vs theirs doesn't win many friends.
As for Spielman.....at least we're relatively competitive. We could be the Browns or Lions or Bengals or Bills or a whole host of teams that haven't been competitive in decades. I know that I'm not setting the bar high by comparing what he's done but it is something. He also went out and signed Cousins this year. Cousins was considered the top FA this year and Richardson was in the top couple on D so at least he's trying. Whether we would be better off with another GM? At this point I would assume it has as much of a chance to be a negative move vs a positive one.
Teams have their ears open trying to discern how the rest of the League has the players they are interested in rated. Otherwise why so many smoke screens pre-draft?
Diggs was highly rated out of High School and that talent didn't transfer to college. There were a variety of factors as to why including injuries and a carousel of really bad QBs who couldn't make use of his talents. I happened to see a few Maryland games when they were still in the ACE and there were plays where the DBs were dead before the snap.
But there were plays where Diggs disappeared. Or looked disinterested after the scrub QB failed to get him the ball when he was wide spanking open. And there were the injuries.
GMs are evaluating human beings, not robots. For Jor El to suggest that Rick should have taken Stefon earlier than the 5th if he knew he was going to be that good is frankly laughable. He had flags along with upside.
You don't pick someone early unless the upside far outweighs the flags. Unless you're the Raiders. If Diggs the human being had been selected in the 2nd or 3rd who's to say he'd be the same player today. Just as easily could have become a spoiled, entitled Diva WR ala Martavis Bryant.
The FO did their homework and rated Diggs as having enough flags to go with talent that they couldn't justify picking him earlier. And that equation that landed him on that spot on their Big Board was more accurate than every other freaking team in the League! Luck my ass.
Everyone was wrong about Diggs' flags. The Vikings were smart enough to be less wrong. That's a testament to them but also not a knock on the other FOs and a perfect example of the art of evaluating non-Blue Chip players. And make no mistake, it's an art, not a science. Humans are too unpredictable to make it a science.
Quote: @96POPS said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ 96POPS said:
Oh yes, definitely I am Bullazin. I will not shy away from that. I have good reason to be. It was RS that had him cut and it reinforces the reason I am bitter. Coaches didn't want him gone. Spielman did and he rules.
Hey Pops, as a fan, it does suck BRob is gone. Especially when we really could use him due to the DLine depth issues stemming from Griffs absence. I've always been a fan of your son.
I'm curious though; why isn't Brian still playing? Was he "all in" with the Vikes, and only the Vikes? Has he gotten any offers from other teams? Seems strange a guy with Brian's reputation and skills isn't still playing.
HV, Brian had an offer immediately after being release. However, he turned them down and told me he was going to be very picky as to who he played for for his last and final season. To tell you the truth I think he is still thinking that he may get a call from the Vikings. As for me, i don't think that call will ever come. RS isn't about to admit it was wrong.
And yes, Brian was all in with the Vikings. He played for less just to stay with them throughout his career. Yes he did hear of other teams that wanted him years ago but wanted to be a career long Viking more than chasing money and dragging his family all over the country.
I think he thought if he was loyal and stayed that they would allow him to finish his career with them.
We heard some rumors from a pretty reliable source and i won't go into that.
I can't fault the coaches. He loved his coaches and they loved him. They even told him that they didn't cut him.
He is willing to play but he's waiting on a team that fits his agenda for his last year.
It was pretty shitty of Ok tricky sick Rick to do what he did after Brian took pay cuts (this year being a huge cut) just to be able to finish where and what he started. Too old, might be what some people say but his coaches say he had his best TC this year, since they'd been there. So i guess that means he probably should have been gone 5 years ago., of that's true. Yeah he's too old to play. If that is true then why did they sign Tom Johnson back at 34? As you can tell I'm not over it and probably won't ever be. He took Brian's ability away to say goodbye to the fans. That's the hard part, if Rick was going to cut him then why ask him to take a pay cut. Yeah, I'm sorry I'm not buying the "It's a business" bullshit. You can still do business and not be a total dick!!
You had a loyal player that would have run through brick walls if the coaches told him to. He believed them when they asked him to do what was best for the team and not worry about stats. Yet, i guess someone wasn't on the same wave link as the coaches and used it against him.
Sorry for venting HV. I'll shut up now.
He did take a phone call from KFAN and PA when we were leaving Minny last Friday morning. He did get to say a goodbye to those that were listening.
The way Brian was treated was SHITY. There is no reason to think the Brob on this team wouldn't have made it a better team. I hate what happened to your Son.
Quote: @AGRforever said:
@ 96POPS said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ 96POPS said:
Oh yes, definitely I am Bullazin. I will not shy away from that. I have good reason to be. It was RS that had him cut and it reinforces the reason I am bitter. Coaches didn't want him gone. Spielman did and he rules.
Hey Pops, as a fan, it does suck BRob is gone. Especially when we really could use him due to the DLine depth issues stemming from Griffs absence. I've always been a fan of your son.
I'm curious though; why isn't Brian still playing? Was he "all in" with the Vikes, and only the Vikes? Has he gotten any offers from other teams? Seems strange a guy with Brian's reputation and skills isn't still playing.
HV, Brian had an offer immediately after being release. However, he turned them down and told me he was going to be very picky as to who he played for for his last and final season. To tell you the truth I think he is still thinking that he may get a call from the Vikings. As for me, i don't think that call will ever come. RS isn't about to admit it was wrong.
And yes, Brian was all in with the Vikings. He played for less just to stay with them throughout his career. Yes he did hear of other teams that wanted him years ago but wanted to be a career long Viking more than chasing money and dragging his family all over the country.
I think he thought if he was loyal and stayed that they would allow him to finish his career with them.
We heard some rumors from a pretty reliable source and i won't go into that.
I can't fault the coaches. He loved his coaches and they loved him. They even told him that they didn't cut him.
He is willing to play but he's waiting on a team that fits his agenda for his last year.
It was pretty shitty of Ok tricky sick Rick to do what he did after Brian took pay cuts (this year being a huge cut) just to be able to finish where and what he started. Too old, might be what some people say but his coaches say he had his best TC this year, since they'd been there. So i guess that means he probably should have been gone 5 years ago., of that's true. Yeah he's too old to play. If that is true then why did they sign Tom Johnson back at 34? As you can tell I'm not over it and probably won't ever be. He took Brian's ability away to say goodbye to the fans. That's the hard part, if Rick was going to cut him then why ask him to take a pay cut. Yeah, I'm sorry I'm not buying the "It's a business" bullshit. You can still do business and not be a total dick!!
You had a loyal player that would have run through brick walls if the coaches told him to. He believed them when they asked him to do what was best for the team and not worry about stats. Yet, i guess someone wasn't on the same wave link as the coaches and used it against him.
Sorry for venting HV. I'll shut up now.
He did take a phone call from KFAN and PA when we were leaving Minny last Friday morning. He did get to say a goodbye to those that were listening.
The way Brian was treated was SHITY. There is no reason to think the Brob on this team wouldn't have made it a better team. I hate what happened to your Son.
Amen on all accounts.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
Teams have their ears open trying to discern how the rest of the League has the players they are interested in rated. Otherwise why so many smoke screens pre-draft?
Diggs was highly rated out of High School and that talent didn't transfer to college. There were a variety of factors as to why including injuries and a carousel of really bad QBs who couldn't make use of his talents. I happened to see a few Maryland games when they were still in the ACE and there were plays where the DBs were dead before the snap.
But there were plays where Diggs disappeared. Or looked disinterested after the scrub QB failed to get him the ball when he was wide spanking open. And there were the injuries.
GMs are evaluating human beings, not robots. For Jor El to suggest that Rick should have taken Stefon earlier than the 5th if he knew he was going to be that good is frankly laughable. He had flags along with upside.
You don't pick someone early unless the upside far outweighs the flags. Unless you're the Raiders. If Diggs the human being had been selected in the 2nd or 3rd who's to say he'd be the same player today. Just as easily could have become a spoiled, entitled Diva WR ala Martavis Bryant.
The FO did their homework and rated Diggs as having enough flags to go with talent that they couldn't justify picking him earlier. And that equation that landed him on that spot on their Big Board was more accurate than every other freaking team in the League! Luck my ass.
Everyone was wrong about Diggs' flags. The Vikings were smart enough to be less wrong. That's a testament to them but also not a knock on the other FOs and a perfect example of the art of evaluating non-Blue Chip players. And make no mistake, it's an art, not a science. Humans are too unpredictable to make it a science.
You miss my point when you said, "For Jor El to suggest that Rick should have taken Stefon earlier than the 5th if he knew he was going to be that good is frankly laughable. He had flags along with upside." My point is not that Spielman SHOULD have taken Diggs earlier, but that people who defend Spielman by holding up Diggs as evidence that Spielman is a "draft guru" are mistaken: no one knew he was likely to be worth more than a 5th-rounder, INCLUDING THE VIKINGS.
I totally understand the idea of taking a flyer in a later round on a player with risks. But if it was even a case of "The Vikings were smart enough to be less wrong", then why hasn't Spielman ever repeated the late-round success of Diggs, despite having 60 picks (double the normal assigned) in rounds 5-7 in ten years? Luck is random, but being smart should repeat, at a rate higher than 1.6%. That's not even a rate you should call good luck.
Or, if all draft picks are just a combination of lucky fit of system and human traits etc, why does Spielman get credit for Smith, Rhodes, Barr, Hunter, Kendricks?
Compare WRs head to head: Spielman thought Patterson and Treadwell were far more likely to succeed in his team/system/culture than Diggs or Thielen.
Hidalgo's original point was that Spielman and Zimmer underfed the offense or spent high picks on offensive players who didn't work out - but that it has been masked by falling backwards into Diggs and Thielen. I'm standing by that assessment.
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