Quote: @"JimmyinSD" said:
@"Skodin" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
What I really have a hard time coming off is if Hamas ( and other radical Islamic terror cells ) intent on killing Jews were to lay down their arms today, Israel would likely do the same and there would be peace for the Palestinians and they would have Gaza as their own, however if Israel were to not take arms against their aggressor there wouldnt be any Israel left or Jews alive. One side has shown time and again that they have no desire to life peacefully, and its not Israel IMO.
Agreed but it's not that simple because you have 3 parties here. Israel - Hamas - Palestine
I understand, which is why I would prefer to see the Islamic community in that region step up and clean Hamas out of Gaza themselves, but I think they are likely hoping this thing blows up in Israel's face so they will be justified in ridding the region of the Jews. Not to mention China and Russia would love nothing more than to get the US into yet another conflict ( either militarily or financially ) so they can step up their fuckery, and if outside nations get involved, I am betting the US will pull the trigger themselves... pun intended.
You are right. This is blowing up in Israel's face (and ours). And we have been supporting it, taking US taxpayer money to fucking do it. Subsidizing the US military industrial complex, more money out of our pocket. What other country uses its taxpayers money for US issues?
The Yemeni Houthis are great example of it. Shia Houthis (backed by Iran) who are supporting the Sunnis Palestinians (backed by Saudi) only because the Jews are attacking them. It has always been about getting the Arab world fired up vs the Israelis.
Hamas leadership lives in Qatar and lives safely. The global community should have called Qatar to give them up immediately after the attacks. Biden had a fucking chance to slow this down, call up Qatar and make a deal to give Hamas up to keep Bibi at bay.
It's failure on all sides. That's how terrible global leadership is now. Driven by stupidity and hate, no solutions, just status quo
Quote: @"badgervike" said:
@"Skodin" said:
@"Zanary" said:
Like I said above, I'm beyond skeptical as a rule...and I run to straight data as much as I can, to avoid bias.
The "genocidal" Israelis, while brutish on Gaza, have been providing most of the necessities on their dime...knowing that there would be inevitable rockets, raid, suicide bombings, etc, from those ranks.
The Egyptians and Jordanians don't want more refugees, partially because NOBODY wan't Iran's rabid puppets in their borders. This is a rare point agreed on by just about everyone.
Hamas took over the political "leadership" of Palestine (which should itself, frankly, be in quotes...but that's a whole different thing) 15 years ago. Whether one blames the terrorist organization that has been open in its genocidal goals towards Israel (Roger Waters strangely doesn't mention this), or the civilians that end up housing and providing resources, human shields, and PR puppetry for them...that's a complex question.
Whatever the case, those screaming about "genocidal" Israel need to look up the history of quotes from Hamas, and ask themselves whether they'd want that within their borders.
I can promise you this: whether during my time in Washington State or in New Mexico, if either Vancouver or Juarez had been sending missles and mortars over the border into Bellingham/El Paso...we'd be the 55-ish States of America right now.
No consideration for the innocent people who are dying in this. The majority of rational people who are calling for a cease fire give ZERO FUCKS about HAMAS and would love them wiped from the face of the earth. Israel has been supportive for the people of Palestine no doubt, unfortunate there is a cancer in that population. You don't destroy the body when you have a cancer inside, you have to be surgical not blasting them with bombs at a higher rate than the US did vs ISIS (7 to 1).
The people dying shouldn't be punished for this. They have no say with Hamas, they have no say with Israel, they did not start this war.
Just because HAMAS is nothing but assholes, there is no reason for Israel to be one as well. They can't be this fucking stupid, unless they are interested in always have a war to wage, an enemy to have.
Keeps people in power, keeps Bibi around.
Israel lost a lot more civilians by population percentage than the US did in 9/11. I didn't notice a lot of calls for restraint after that attack. Frankly, I think Israel has been looking for an excuse to finally take out Hamas. Much like the Palestinians (non Hamas), their population is tired of living with the specter of war and attacks and are tired of it. I also think they are secretly hoping that Iran and it's other proxies join the fray. That gives them an excuse to to take out at bare minimum the Iranian nuclear facilities. Iran has become a pariah in the Middle East. That's why the Abraham Accords made sense and should have been expanded. You have a lot of Countries that have signed peace agreements with Israel including Saudi, Egypt, Sudan, UAE, Morocco...it just keeps isolating Iran.
And what did we get reacting to the 9/11 attacks? Estimated cost of $8 trillion dollars, 900,000 lives lost,
7,000 American military members killed.
31,000 US solider suicides
Do you consider that a victory? Glad we responded that way? Would you do it again?
You can show strength without stupidity
Quote: @"Skodin" said:
Dude take it easy. Where was I attacking you? I responded to the fact that your post was all about Hamas which no one sane person is defending.
The focus is trying to keep the topic on the innocent people here, the ones having their lives destroyed today, tomorrow, the day after that. Isn't that the whole point of the "cease fire" conversation? You aren't ending Hamas, and there is no simple solution, there is no complex solution here.
What power do you think the children and senior community of Palestine have? The Arab world treats them like pawns, they have to live in an open air prison, supported by their religious enemy. There is zero consideration of being in their position in this dialogue. It is a nightmare of a situation here.
Wishing for the Arab community to step up to throw out Hamas is never going to happen while Israel continues this offensive destroys the lives of innocent Arabs.
We learned nothing from the wars of 2003 until of late. You are not beating this ideology. There is no war to win. Engaging in it beyond being measured just makes it worse. Just accept it.
"being a blamey-bitch", man grow up
Your take is as limited as those you're hissing at, likely more.
Would I have loved for sleepy Joe to get Hamas' assclown handed over? Absolutely...but, the way he handled the Afghanistan withdrawal and some other gaffes shows that he's better at a quotable press conference (carefully scripted by functional members of his team) than taking a sharp, precise action.
We can always hope Mossad does it for everyone.
You keep bringing up the innocents involved, and there are terrible numbers involved...but huge numbers HAD TO KNOW about tunnels, weapons, oxygen pumps, fuel hoarding, and the massive operations involved to allow the sheer scale of Hamas' existence and operational capability within Gaza, and also had to have had involvement. That scale of operation takes a massive scale of manpower, cooperation, logistics, etc.
Are Hamas bullying people, blackmailing, etc...yes, undoubtedly, but by the same token, Hamas is NOT operating in anything like a vacuum.
Nothing justifies the innocents killed on any side, though I haven't notice IDF stripping, beheading, and parading their kills (civilian or otherwise).
There's a very old, cold, dark joke that suggests walling off the whole area, tossing in some weapons, and once the noise dies down, declaring the surviving people to be the winners...because it might actually have a lower body count than the way that's been going on for generations.
At this time, knowing that the sponsors of "Palestine" (again, a topic for another thread) are among the least likely to actually accept a two-state solution...why even humor the possibility, anymore?
Call it all Israel. Arabs/Muslims have actually lived peacefully within Israel for generations, maybe it's time others learned from the example.
Quote: @"Zanary" said:
@"Skodin" said:
Dude take it easy. Where was I attacking you? I responded to the fact that your post was all about Hamas which no one sane person is defending.
The focus is trying to keep the topic on the innocent people here, the ones having their lives destroyed today, tomorrow, the day after that. Isn't that the whole point of the "cease fire" conversation? You aren't ending Hamas, and there is no simple solution, there is no complex solution here.
What power do you think the children and senior community of Palestine have? The Arab world treats them like pawns, they have to live in an open air prison, supported by their religious enemy. There is zero consideration of being in their position in this dialogue. It is a nightmare of a situation here.
Wishing for the Arab community to step up to throw out Hamas is never going to happen while Israel continues this offensive destroys the lives of innocent Arabs.
We learned nothing from the wars of 2003 until of late. You are not beating this ideology. There is no war to win. Engaging in it beyond being measured just makes it worse. Just accept it.
"being a blamey-bitch", man grow up
Your take is as limited as those you're hissing at, likely more.
Would I have loved for sleepy Joe to get Hamas' assclown handed over? Absolutely...but, the way he handled the Afghanistan withdrawal and some other gaffes shows that he's better at a quotable press conference (carefully scripted by functional members of his team) than taking a sharp, precise action.
We can always hope Mossad does it for everyone.
You keep bringing up the innocents involved, and there are terrible numbers involved...but huge numbers HAD TO KNOW about tunnels, weapons, oxygen pumps, fuel hoarding, and the massive operations involved to allow the sheer scale of Hamas' existence and operational capability within Gaza, and also had to have had involvement. That scale of operation takes a massive scale of manpower, cooperation, logistics, etc.
Are Hamas bullying people, blackmailing, etc...yes, undoubtedly, but by the same token, Hamas is NOT operating in anything like a vacuum.
Nothing justifies the innocents killed on any side, though I haven't notice IDF stripping, beheading, and parading their kills (civilian or otherwise).
There's a very old, cold, dark joke that suggests walling off the whole area, tossing in some weapons, and once the noise dies down, declaring the surviving people to be the winners...because it might actually have a lower body count than the way that's been going on for generations.
At this time, knowing that the sponsors of "Palestine" (again, a topic for another thread) are among the least likely to actually accept a two-state solution...why even humor the possibility, anymore?
Call it all Israel. Arabs/Muslims have actually lived peacefully within Israel for generations, maybe it's time others learned from the example.
"But huge numbers . ." what an assumption and justification for the level of destruction that has taken place in the last month. Because of this magical number, I am sure that ambulance strike that killed 15 and wounded another 50, many of them children is TOTALLY WORTH IT. You want to root out the supporters of Hamas? Israel needs the Palestinian Authority as a partner. Hard to do that when you are killing 100 children a day.
IDF is admitting to what, 10-15 Hamas kills a day with the collateral damage of anywhere from 200-500. How do you justify this? How many kids are going to want to pick up arms and be supportive of Hamas now? More than there was before October 7th that's for fucking sure. How many dead kids are worth killing ghosts?
The actions of Israel at this point is by definition, terrorism with war crimes galore. Israel can not get out of this mess and keep Western support without a Palestinian partner (who is going to lead Gaza once the destruction is done, especially if Bibi annexes the West Bank?)
You tried to point out, FACTS earlier. Let us discuss facts.
Based on global war statistics, it's on average 9 civilian deaths to every 1 combatant death. So to "eliminate" which is not going to happen Hamas, this projects 270,000-360,000 civilians dead. So in a region with over 460 million Arabs, if 0.5% became terrorists in response, that's 2.3 million more terrorists on the way. DISCOUNT those historical averages by 90%, it's still 5x the amount of HAMAS members at the outset of the war. Smart move.
You reference the Abraham Accords, the first party to sign? Bahrain. Now the first country in the region to break economic ties to Israel? Bahrain
Yeah, this is a war stoked by benefactors (Iran, UAE, Russia, key parties inside Israel) of the violence and the US and Israel are caught in the trap.
Russia is loving US arms being sent to support Israel, not Kyiv. With Mike Johnson in who wants to slow down the assistance to Ukraine, Putin is back on a US political pathway of success. Do not think for one second that Iran and Russia haven't played a considerable roll in the Hamas 10/7 effort. Putin welcomed Hamas last week and in return Iran is providing missiles and drones to fight Ukraine.
Just off the coast sits not just 1 but 3 US ships, the USS Gerald Ford, the USS Carney, and the USS D. Eisenhower. This is a fucking balkan powder keg.
The sheer false equivalence assumptions in that response...holy s**t.
I WORK in logistics, and I spent 3 decades in New Mexico, another place that had to deal with unwanted tunnels from foreign nationals.
Yes, HUGE FUCKING NUMBERS. I don't preach any equivalency ratio, I said straight up that none of the innocent civilians casualties were acceptable...but I don't run the war.
The "Palestinian Authority"? That's as big a farce as "objective media". I don't disagree with your point, only that the very central item in it has failed, constantly and utterly, to undertake its central mission for...um...its existence.
I do not believe in any way, shape, or form, that any known version of the "two state solution" can work. Israel has a pack of armed aggressors using (and, yes, at least partially enabled by) millions of people claiming a country that's never fully existed, and who have repeatedly elected groups that both refuse to acknowledge Israel and who openly pledge themselves to its destruction.
Israel should claim the whole fuggin' thing, with a path toward citizenship and thus heightened rights. Those that cannot/will not be part of it...should be somehow freed to look for other options. If they insist they're going to "stay and fight" for a country that's never fully existed and is represented by murder as much as anything else, well...that's a tragic choice.
OK, I should maybe explain some of my skepticism a bit:
I had friends and family in the Middle East, stationed by the military and a couple of contractors, during the 90s and 2000s. We'd talk, and they'd tell me about the situation there being miles, infinitely worse than the versions we get reported over here. They'd send me videos of Palestinian kid shows where they'd get prizes for acting out violence/murder on Jews, etc.
It's still easy to find on YouTube. It's also impossible to forget once seen, so...make your own decisions, folks.
The fucking PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY sponsors texts and programs that are full-on in support of hatred and murder. It's not just "Palestinians as opposed to Hamas or Hezbollah", it's in the textbooks, the TV programs, it's indoctrinated early and often.
I'm sure that there are plenty who try to resist this, who don't celebrate violence and hatred...but, no, I do NOT agree that there's any hard separation of the Palestinians and the terror/governance groups. The very Palestinian Authority you want Israel to work with is encouraging murder among their own children.
https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2023/10/27/how-palestinian-kids-are-taught-to-hate-jews/
"Even the comparatively moderate Palestinian Authority textbooks are problematic. In 2020, the European Union’s Parliament adopted three resolutions condemning the authority “for continuing to teach hate and violence in its school textbooks,” following a study confirming incitement in the curriculum. To teach physics, a textbook showed students “a picture of Palestinians hitting Israeli soldiers with slingshots,” the study found, while another “promotes a conspiracy theory that Israel removed the original stones of ancient sites in Jerusalem and replaced them with ones bearing Zionist drawings and shapes.” UNRWA schools in Gaza, too, are replete with antisemitism. A 2018 article in The Times of Israel cited examples including the lionization of Dalal al-Mughrabi, who led a 1978 attack on a bus in Tel Aviv that killed more than 30 people, as a “heroine and martyr of Palestine,” and the description of the victims of an attack in Psagot, a settlement in the occupied West Bank, as “a barbecue party.”"
Give up the fuggin' farce. Call it Israel, and announce last call.
Quote: @"Zanary" said:
OK, I should maybe explain some of my skepticism a bit:
I had friends and family in the Middle East, stationed by the military and a couple of contractors, during the 90s and 2000s. We'd talk, and they'd tell me about the situation there being miles, infinitely worse than the versions we get reported over here. They'd send me videos of Palestinian kid shows where they'd get prizes for acting out violence/murder on Jews, etc.
It's still easy to find on YouTube. It's also impossible to forget once seen, so...make your own decisions, folks.
The fucking PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY sponsors texts and programs that are full-on in support of hatred and murder. It's not just "Palestinians as opposed to Hamas or Hezbollah", it's in the textbooks, the TV programs, it's indoctrinated early and often.
I'm sure that there are plenty who try to resist this, who don't celebrate violence and hatred...but, no, I do NOT agree that there's any hard separation of the Palestinians and the terror/governance groups. The very Palestinian Authority you want Israel to work with is encouraging murder among their own children.
https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2023/10/27/how-palestinian-kids-are-taught-to-hate-jews/
"Even the comparatively moderate Palestinian Authority textbooks are problematic. In 2020, the European Union’s Parliament adopted three resolutions condemning the authority “for continuing to teach hate and violence in its school textbooks,” following a study confirming incitement in the curriculum. To teach physics, a textbook showed students “a picture of Palestinians hitting Israeli soldiers with slingshots,” the study found, while another “promotes a conspiracy theory that Israel removed the original stones of ancient sites in Jerusalem and replaced them with ones bearing Zionist drawings and shapes.”UNRWA schools in Gaza, too, are replete with antisemitism. A 2018 article in The Times of Israel cited examples including the lionization of Dalal al-Mughrabi, who led a 1978 attack on a bus in Tel Aviv that killed more than 30 people, as a “heroine and martyr of Palestine,” and the description of the victims of an attack in Psagot, a settlement in the occupied West Bank, as “a barbecue party.”"
Give up the fuggin' farce. Call it Israel, and announce last call.
I will say this, can you imagine our own country's reaction if Canada or Mexico launched missiles over and took a couple hundred americans hostage back across the border?
You might have mentioned this earlier too.
Quote: @"purplefaithful" said:
@"Zanary" said:
OK, I should maybe explain some of my skepticism a bit:
I had friends and family in the Middle East, stationed by the military and a couple of contractors, during the 90s and 2000s. We'd talk, and they'd tell me about the situation there being miles, infinitely worse than the versions we get reported over here. They'd send me videos of Palestinian kid shows where they'd get prizes for acting out violence/murder on Jews, etc.
It's still easy to find on YouTube. It's also impossible to forget once seen, so...make your own decisions, folks.
The fucking PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY sponsors texts and programs that are full-on in support of hatred and murder. It's not just "Palestinians as opposed to Hamas or Hezbollah", it's in the textbooks, the TV programs, it's indoctrinated early and often.
I'm sure that there are plenty who try to resist this, who don't celebrate violence and hatred...but, no, I do NOT agree that there's any hard separation of the Palestinians and the terror/governance groups. The very Palestinian Authority you want Israel to work with is encouraging murder among their own children.
https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2023/10/27/how-palestinian-kids-are-taught-to-hate-jews/
"Even the comparatively moderate Palestinian Authority textbooks are problematic. In 2020, the European Union’s Parliament adopted three resolutions condemning the authority “for continuing to teach hate and violence in its school textbooks,” following a study confirming incitement in the curriculum. To teach physics, a textbook showed students “a picture of Palestinians hitting Israeli soldiers with slingshots,” the study found, while another “promotes a conspiracy theory that Israel removed the original stones of ancient sites in Jerusalem and replaced them with ones bearing Zionist drawings and shapes.” UNRWA schools in Gaza, too, are replete with antisemitism. A 2018 article in The Times of Israel cited examples including the lionization of Dalal al-Mughrabi, who led a 1978 attack on a bus in Tel Aviv that killed more than 30 people, as a “heroine and martyr of Palestine,” and the description of the victims of an attack in Psagot, a settlement in the occupied West Bank, as “a barbecue party.”"
Give up the fuggin' farce. Call it Israel, and announce last call.
I will say this, can you imagine our own country's reaction if Canada or Mexico launched missiles over and took a couple hundred americans hostage back across the border?
You might have mentioned this earlier too.
I back away from this a lot, because...I want to believe it's progressed, I want to believe it's gotten better, I want to believe that my American viewpoint is half the world away and thus waaaay out of date.
I can't convince myself of that, and the viciousness of the rallies in Seattle (just North of where I live) and in seemingly every big "blue" city and university is terrifying to any student of history.
Quote: @"Skodin" said:
@"
And what did we get reacting to the 9/11 attacks? Estimated cost of $8 trillion dollars, 900,000 lives lost,
7,000 American military members killed.
31,000 US solider suicides
Do you consider that a victory? Glad we responded that way? Would you do it again?
You can show strength without stupidity
My point was that the US was justified to respond to 9/11 and it did. I guess we could have sent a very strongly worded letter to Al Qaeda...or maybe launch some cruise missiles into an empty Al Qaeda training camp. That scared them straight after the first World Trade Center attacks...lol. Did the US have to respond with force? Absolutely. We all believed that was the first of many attacks. The only thing that region understands is might. Clearly, Bin Laden expected a muted response similar to the first attack. 7000 US military members killed in Afghanistan? You getting your numbers from Hamas? From Wikipedia:
"a total of 2,402 United States servicemen were killed in the war in Afghanistan. The website iCasualties.org lists 2,455 servicemembers and 10 CIA operatives as having died in Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Freedom's Sentinel, including 49 who died in support of other OEF operations."
By the way, most of those deaths were during the Obama years when the rules of engagement were changed to require service members to wear targets on their backs.
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| Characteristic | Total* | U.S. | UK | Other |
|---|
| 2001 | 12 | 12 | 0 | 0 | | 2002 | 70 | 49 | 3 | 18 | | 2003 | 58 | 48 | 0 | 10 | | 2004 | 60 | 52 | 1 | 7 | | 2005 | 131 | 99 | 1 | 31 | | 2006 | 191 | 98 | 39 | 54 | | 2007 | 232 | 117 | 42 | 73 | | 2008 | 295 | 155 | 51 | 89 | | 2009 | 521 | 317 | 108 | 96 | | 2010 | 710 | 498 | 103 | 109 | | 2011 | 563 | 415 | 46 | 102 | | 2012 | 402 | 310 | 44 | 48 | | 2013 | 162 | 128 | 9 | 25 | | 2014 | 75 | 55 | 6 | 14 | | 2015 | 26 | 22 | 2 | 2 | | 2016 | 15 | 13 | 0 | 2 | | 2017 | 17 | 15 | 0 | 2 | | 2018 | 19 | 14 | 0 | 5 | | 2019 | 26 | 24 | 0 | 2 | | 2020 | 11 | 11 | 0 | 0
| | 2021** | 13 | 13 0 0
|
I think we can all agree the US shouldn't be in the business of nation building but how on earth did Biden manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in Afghanistan? We went from stability in Afghanistan to the fall of Saigon for Christ's sake. If you're worried about the cost of Afghanistan...maybe just maybe we should have collected the $7B + in arms left behind prior to leaving. Maybe we should have processed those that cooperated with the US and wanted asylum in the US or elsewhere rather than hand them over to the Taliban. We couldn't even bother to get the US people out. Why would anybody trust us anymore to cooperate when we leave them to die? How about maintaining a small peace keeping / training force at Bagram much like we've done in Iraq? We spent $1B on the base and the Taliban has leased it to China. You think that mass surrender showed strength? Again, all the region knows is strength. The Arabs were not impressed.
And Iraq? We had no business being there in the first place. Plain and simple.
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