Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ Akvike said:
because trading Kirk means JJ will be suiting up for someone else---he aint signing on for Qb roulette while they figure it out.
No it doesn't. Cousins will be 35 before the start of the season and it's anybody guess on when/if he takes a Matt Ryan-esque nose dive in production. The early indications are Kwesi is not willing to tie up money on a big extension and take that risk. So JJ needs to get used to the idea that Cousins won't be here long term and he will have to trust in the front office to put the right pieces in place around him, including a long term QB. We are going to make him the highest paid position player in football and he won't be going anywhere regardless if we dropped Cousins tomorrow. I think that's one of the biggest bullshit lines being tossed around this forum that if the Vikings move on from Cousins it will piss JJ off and he will leave. Not happening
Yes Jefferson knows he'll play the bulk of his career with a different QB. This QB will likely be a high pick in next year's draft.
But if you think Jefferson, at the peak of contract negotiations, where he could sign or walk away at any point, just doesn't give a damn who his 2023 QB is, you're being ridiculously naive.
What's more, with training camp a couple weeks away, if you still think trading Cousins is even a remote possibility, you really are fooling yourself.
The point was if they moved Hunter, and are signaling we aren't going to be competive this season (because that's what that move would be), then what's the point of keeping a 35 year old QB around who we don't want to pay, has some trade value, and is going into the last year of his deal? How does it not make all the sense in the world at that point to just trade him also? We free up future cap space, get draft picks in return AND much better draft positioning to increase the likelihood that we land an upper level QB in this next draft. I'd take a year of Cam Newton or the like off the street for all that to play out. Or just start Jaren Hall and let him sink or swim. You just have to sell Jefferson, Darrisaw, etc that they are the building blocks for which you are building the team around and they need to trust that the front office puts the right pieces around them moving forward and long term.
With Jefferson, the Vikings can pay him more then any other team. We can franchise him and if he decides he doesn't want to play, we trade him for multiple first round draft picks. I don't see it going that route, but the Vikings would have options if it came to a game of hardball.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ Akvike said:
because trading Kirk means JJ will be suiting up for someone else---he aint signing on for Qb roulette while they figure it out.
No it doesn't. Cousins will be 35 before the start of the season and it's anybody guess on when/if he takes a Matt Ryan-esque nose dive in production. The early indications are Kwesi is not willing to tie up money on a big extension and take that risk. So JJ needs to get used to the idea that Cousins won't be here long term and he will have to trust in the front office to put the right pieces in place around him, including a long term QB. We are going to make him the highest paid position player in football and he won't be going anywhere regardless if we dropped Cousins tomorrow. I think that's one of the biggest bullshit lines being tossed around this forum that if the Vikings move on from Cousins it will piss JJ off and he will leave. Not happening
Yes Jefferson knows he'll play the bulk of his career with a different QB. This QB will likely be a high pick in next year's draft.
But if you think Jefferson, at the peak of contract negotiations, where he could sign or walk away at any point, just doesn't give a damn who his 2023 QB is, you're being ridiculously naive.
What's more, with training camp a couple weeks away, if you still think trading Cousins is even a remote possibility, you really are fooling yourself.
The point was if they moved Hunter, and are signaling we aren't going to be competive this season (because that's what that move would be), then what's the point of keeping a 35 year old QB around who we don't want to pay, has some trade value, and is going into the last year of his deal? How does it not make all the sense in the world at that point to just trade him also? We free up future cap space, get draft picks in return AND much better draft positioning to increase the likelihood that we land an upper level QB in this next draft. I'd take a year of Cam Newton or the like off the street for all that to play out. Or just start Jaren Hall and let him sink or swim. You just have to sell Jefferson, Darrisaw, etc that they are the building blocks for which you are building the team around and they need to trust that the front office puts the right pieces around them moving forward and long term.
With Jefferson, the Vikings can pay him more then any other team. We can franchise him and if he decides he doesn't want to play, we trade him for multiple first round draft picks. I don't see it going that route, but the Vikings would have options if it came to a game of hardball.
the biggest thing with JJ is the team still has him for 2 years, he would be foolish to fuck around and not sign a top money deal with the Vikings if they offered it to him this summer, regardless of who his QB is. Not doing so wouldnt be him betting that he keeps playing at this level for just one more season, but in fact 2 since they picked up his 5th year option, and then like you say they have that franchise tag, so does Kirk really mean that much to him that he would risk future earnings against injury be electing to play out his last 2 years or more?
$28, 500,000!!!!!! That is the dead cap hit we will take if we move on from Cousins in 2024. There is no way around that number. I don't see any way that Cousins is traded before the season starts. That's total nonsense despite the persistent rumors. The Wilf's would never sign off on that and they are the ones that are pushing the "Competitive Rebuild" on the fly agenda. I've said it before, Cousins is auditioning for his next contract with the Vikings which is a smart move by Kwesi. He is betting he can't reproduce the same magical season as last year and will be able to get Kirk for a 2-3 year deal with a better cap number. This also gives KOC and Kwesi time to draft or sign a FA replacement if Kirk decides to walk.
Hunter is a completely separate issue and I don't agree with all the stupid talking heads that want to tie Hunter's situation with getting rid of Kendricks, Peterson, Cook, Thielen, etc. as a sign we are tanking. Don't listen to Florio's propaganda. Hunter isn't going to play for $5 Million. Everyone knows that. The Vikings want to keep him but it will come down to money like it always does. I'm getting the feeling that Hunter's agents are trying to make up for signing a bad deal under Spielman so this could get a little ugly, especially if Hunter feels like he was mistreated. We already know he won't be at mandatory minicamp this week. Hopefully they can work out a fair deal to keep him but if his demands are too great the Vikings don't have to do anything. His contract for this year would toll if he refuses to play and sits out. If it gets that bad, then you can always pull the trigger on a good trade. I'm hoping with a Flores Coached Defense, that the Sum of it's parts is greater than individual Superstars. I'm also not sure how Hunter really fits in a 3-4 scheme as he already proved last year that he was having a lot of difficulty adapting to his new role and was pretty much invisible until the second half of the year. Lots to sort out. Ultimately Hunter might be more valuable to another Team where he is a better scheme fit than what the Vikings are willing to pay him, especially with extensions for JJ, TJ, Darrisaw, and potentially Cousins needing to be resolved.
Quote: @TBro said:
$28, 500,000!!!!!! That is the dead cap hit we will take if we move on from Cousins in 2024. There is no way around that number. I don't see any way that Cousins is traded before the season starts. That's total nonsense despite the persistent rumors. The Wilf's would never sign off on that and they are the ones that are pushing the "Competitive Rebuild" on the fly agenda. I've said it before, Cousins is auditioning for his next contract with the Vikings which is a smart move by Kwesi. He is betting he can't reproduce the same magical season as last year and will be able to get Kirk for a 2-3 year deal with a better cap number. This also gives KOC and Kwesi time to draft or sign a FA replacement if Kirk decides to walk.
Hunter is a completely separate issue and I don't agree with all the stupid talking heads that want to tie Hunter's situation with getting rid of Kendricks, Peterson, Cook, Thielen, etc. as a sign we are tanking. Don't listen to Florio's propaganda. Hunter isn't going to play for $5 Million. Everyone knows that. The Vikings want to keep him but it will come down to money like it always does. I'm getting the feeling that Hunter's agents are trying to make up for signing a bad deal under Spielman so this could get a little ugly, especially if Hunter feels like he was mistreated. We already know he won't be at mandatory minicamp this week. Hopefully they can work out a fair deal to keep him but if his demands are too great the Vikings don't have to do anything. His contract for this year would toll if he refuses to play and sits out. If it gets that bad, then you can always pull the trigger on a good trade. I'm hoping with a Flores Coached Defense, that the Sum of it's parts is greater than individual Superstars. I'm also not sure how Hunter really fits in a 3-4 scheme as he already proved last year that he was having a lot of difficulty adapting to his new role and was pretty much invisible until the second half of the year. Lots to sort out. Ultimately Hunter might be more valuable to another Team where he is a better scheme fit than what the Vikings are willing to pay him, especially with extensions for JJ, TJ, Darrisaw, and potentially Cousins needing to be resolved.
according to over the cap his hit "post june 1st" is only 10.25 million, with a 10 million cap savings, the rest of the pro rated cap money owed on the contract would affect next years cap since it post June 1st IIRC.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ TBro said:
$28, 500,000!!!!!! That is the dead cap hit we will take if we move on from Cousins in 2024. There is no way around that number. I don't see any way that Cousins is traded before the season starts. That's total nonsense despite the persistent rumors. The Wilf's would never sign off on that and they are the ones that are pushing the "Competitive Rebuild" on the fly agenda. I've said it before, Cousins is auditioning for his next contract with the Vikings which is a smart move by Kwesi. He is betting he can't reproduce the same magical season as last year and will be able to get Kirk for a 2-3 year deal with a better cap number. This also gives KOC and Kwesi time to draft or sign a FA replacement if Kirk decides to walk.
Hunter is a completely separate issue and I don't agree with all the stupid talking heads that want to tie Hunter's situation with getting rid of Kendricks, Peterson, Cook, Thielen, etc. as a sign we are tanking. Don't listen to Florio's propaganda. Hunter isn't going to play for $5 Million. Everyone knows that. The Vikings want to keep him but it will come down to money like it always does. I'm getting the feeling that Hunter's agents are trying to make up for signing a bad deal under Spielman so this could get a little ugly, especially if Hunter feels like he was mistreated. We already know he won't be at mandatory minicamp this week. Hopefully they can work out a fair deal to keep him but if his demands are too great the Vikings don't have to do anything. His contract for this year would toll if he refuses to play and sits out. If it gets that bad, then you can always pull the trigger on a good trade. I'm hoping with a Flores Coached Defense, that the Sum of it's parts is greater than individual Superstars. I'm also not sure how Hunter really fits in a 3-4 scheme as he already proved last year that he was having a lot of difficulty adapting to his new role and was pretty much invisible until the second half of the year. Lots to sort out. Ultimately Hunter might be more valuable to another Team where he is a better scheme fit than what the Vikings are willing to pay him, especially with extensions for JJ, TJ, Darrisaw, and potentially Cousins needing to be resolved.
according to over the cap his hit "post june 1st" is only 10.25 million, with a 10 million cap savings, the rest of the pro rated cap money owed on the contract would affect next years cap since it post June 1st IIRC.
I think you’re misreading the table and/or OTC is doing
illegal things for the void years.
Cousins is only under contract for 2023. If we cut him this year, we pay his entire
salary cap hit for this year against the cap and the rest next year. If we don’t extend him, all his future
guaranteed money is paid in 2024. I don’t
think we can cut him post June 1st in 2024 (aka pushing some money
into 2025), which is what I think you’re seeing on overthecap.
Quote: @medaille said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ TBro said:
$28, 500,000!!!!!! That is the dead cap hit we will take if we move on from Cousins in 2024. There is no way around that number. I don't see any way that Cousins is traded before the season starts. That's total nonsense despite the persistent rumors. The Wilf's would never sign off on that and they are the ones that are pushing the "Competitive Rebuild" on the fly agenda. I've said it before, Cousins is auditioning for his next contract with the Vikings which is a smart move by Kwesi. He is betting he can't reproduce the same magical season as last year and will be able to get Kirk for a 2-3 year deal with a better cap number. This also gives KOC and Kwesi time to draft or sign a FA replacement if Kirk decides to walk.
Hunter is a completely separate issue and I don't agree with all the stupid talking heads that want to tie Hunter's situation with getting rid of Kendricks, Peterson, Cook, Thielen, etc. as a sign we are tanking. Don't listen to Florio's propaganda. Hunter isn't going to play for $5 Million. Everyone knows that. The Vikings want to keep him but it will come down to money like it always does. I'm getting the feeling that Hunter's agents are trying to make up for signing a bad deal under Spielman so this could get a little ugly, especially if Hunter feels like he was mistreated. We already know he won't be at mandatory minicamp this week. Hopefully they can work out a fair deal to keep him but if his demands are too great the Vikings don't have to do anything. His contract for this year would toll if he refuses to play and sits out. If it gets that bad, then you can always pull the trigger on a good trade. I'm hoping with a Flores Coached Defense, that the Sum of it's parts is greater than individual Superstars. I'm also not sure how Hunter really fits in a 3-4 scheme as he already proved last year that he was having a lot of difficulty adapting to his new role and was pretty much invisible until the second half of the year. Lots to sort out. Ultimately Hunter might be more valuable to another Team where he is a better scheme fit than what the Vikings are willing to pay him, especially with extensions for JJ, TJ, Darrisaw, and potentially Cousins needing to be resolved.
according to over the cap his hit "post june 1st" is only 10.25 million, with a 10 million cap savings, the rest of the pro rated cap money owed on the contract would affect next years cap since it post June 1st IIRC.
I think you’re misreading the table and/or OTC is doing
illegal things for the void years.
Cousins is only under contract for 2023. If we cut him this year, we pay his entire
salary cap hit for this year against the cap and the rest next year. If we don’t extend him, all his future
guaranteed money is paid in 2024. I don’t
think we can cut him post June 1st in 2024 (aka pushing some money
into 2025), which is what I think you’re seeing on overthecap.
no, since its post june 1st, cut or trade we are only on the hook for this year, his hit this year is 20.25 million ( they redid his money earlier this year to add an additional year IIRC. Since he would be on a different team his contract would be paid by them, so we would only be paying the 10.25 in prorated cap from this year. next year we would get hit with the remaining cap money of 28.5 if I am understanding this correctly. This is why the pre and post June 1st stuff plays into affect is by waiting until after June 1st you wait a year to take those future cap hits. I dont think anything could push into 25 if he is no longer with the team.
A lot going on in this thread but I'll say MB is right, Kirk is not getting traded before this season. The absolute only way would be if a contender suffers an injury in preseason/TC and we pull a reverse-Bradford on some team. Even then I think it's super unlikely since the Eagles had Wentz on the roster and we have, um, Jaren Hall. Less than 1%.
As far as Hunter goes-- I doubt he gets traded either. Unfortunately if we "call his bluff" and can't get a deal done before the season and he does opt to sit out, that tanks his value to other teams as well the longer it goes on. So while I think a deal gets done, I'd put his trade chances around 20%.
JJ-- I hope we sign him to a gigantic deal yesterday. This should be priority #1 for this franchise, 2nd being finding our next QB. He's a competitive guy I'm sure but he's also smart. If KAM sells his vision and JJ buys in and that vision doesn't involve Kirk being here until the wheels come off, then I think JJ will be fine with it. Winning is great but money talks. If he's making crazy money I think he'll tolerate a down season or two while the team figures it out. Most would. Heck look at Damien Lilliard in the NBA. Guy's been rotting away on a loser for a decade, still loyal to the team. I know that's not everyone but when these guys look at their paycheck every two weeks that heals a lot of wounds.
Quote: @pattersaur said:
A lot going on in this thread but I'll say MB is right, Kirk is not getting traded before this season. The absolute only way would be if a contender suffers an injury in preseason/TC and we pull a reverse-Bradford on some team. Even then I think it's super unlikely since the Eagles had Wentz on the roster and we have, um, Jaren Hall. Less than 1%.
As far as Hunter goes-- I doubt he gets traded either. Unfortunately if we "call his bluff" and can't get a deal done before the season and he does opt to sit out, that tanks his value to other teams as well the longer it goes on. So while I think a deal gets done, I'd put his trade chances around 20%.
JJ-- I hope we sign him to a gigantic deal yesterday. This should be priority #1 for this franchise, 2nd being finding our next QB. He's a competitive guy I'm sure but he's also smart. If KAM sells his vision and JJ buys in and that vision doesn't involve Kirk being here until the wheels come off, then I think JJ will be fine with it. Winning is great but money talks. If he's making crazy money I think he'll tolerate a down season or two while the team figures it out. Most would. Heck look at Damien Lilliard in the NBA. Guy's been rotting away on a loser for a decade, still loyal to the team. I know that's not everyone but when these guys look at their paycheck every two weeks that heals a lot of wounds.
I don't think it's as much about being on a winner as it is about the QB. Unlike basketball or baseball or any other position in football, a receiver's fortunes are directly tied to his QB. I don't think there's another position in all of sports that is quite that dependent on another player.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ medaille said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ TBro said:
$28, 500,000!!!!!! That is the dead cap hit we will take if we move on from Cousins in 2024. There is no way around that number. I don't see any way that Cousins is traded before the season starts. That's total nonsense despite the persistent rumors. The Wilf's would never sign off on that and they are the ones that are pushing the "Competitive Rebuild" on the fly agenda. I've said it before, Cousins is auditioning for his next contract with the Vikings which is a smart move by Kwesi. He is betting he can't reproduce the same magical season as last year and will be able to get Kirk for a 2-3 year deal with a better cap number. This also gives KOC and Kwesi time to draft or sign a FA replacement if Kirk decides to walk.
Hunter is a completely separate issue and I don't agree with all the stupid talking heads that want to tie Hunter's situation with getting rid of Kendricks, Peterson, Cook, Thielen, etc. as a sign we are tanking. Don't listen to Florio's propaganda. Hunter isn't going to play for $5 Million. Everyone knows that. The Vikings want to keep him but it will come down to money like it always does. I'm getting the feeling that Hunter's agents are trying to make up for signing a bad deal under Spielman so this could get a little ugly, especially if Hunter feels like he was mistreated. We already know he won't be at mandatory minicamp this week. Hopefully they can work out a fair deal to keep him but if his demands are too great the Vikings don't have to do anything. His contract for this year would toll if he refuses to play and sits out. If it gets that bad, then you can always pull the trigger on a good trade. I'm hoping with a Flores Coached Defense, that the Sum of it's parts is greater than individual Superstars. I'm also not sure how Hunter really fits in a 3-4 scheme as he already proved last year that he was having a lot of difficulty adapting to his new role and was pretty much invisible until the second half of the year. Lots to sort out. Ultimately Hunter might be more valuable to another Team where he is a better scheme fit than what the Vikings are willing to pay him, especially with extensions for JJ, TJ, Darrisaw, and potentially Cousins needing to be resolved.
according to over the cap his hit "post june 1st" is only 10.25 million, with a 10 million cap savings, the rest of the pro rated cap money owed on the contract would affect next years cap since it post June 1st IIRC.
I think you’re misreading the table and/or OTC is doing
illegal things for the void years.
Cousins is only under contract for 2023. If we cut him this year, we pay his entire
salary cap hit for this year against the cap and the rest next year. If we don’t extend him, all his future
guaranteed money is paid in 2024. I don’t
think we can cut him post June 1st in 2024 (aka pushing some money
into 2025), which is what I think you’re seeing on overthecap.
no, since its post june 1st, cut or trade we are only on the hook for this year, his hit this year is 20.25 million ( they redid his money earlier this year to add an additional year IIRC. Since he would be on a different team his contract would be paid by them, so we would only be paying the 10.25 in prorated cap from this year. next year we would get hit with the remaining cap money of 28.5 if I am understanding this correctly. This is why the pre and post June 1st stuff plays into affect is by waiting until after June 1st you wait a year to take those future cap hits. I dont think anything could push into 25 if he is no longer with the team.
Are you talking about cutting/trading Hunter prior to the 2023 season?
Quote: @TBro said:
$28, 500,000!!!!!! That is the dead cap hit we will take if we move on from Cousins in 2024. There is no way around that number. I don't see any way that Cousins is traded before the season starts. That's total nonsense despite the persistent rumors. The Wilf's would never sign off on that and they are the ones that are pushing the "Competitive Rebuild" on the fly agenda. I've said it before, Cousins is auditioning for his next contract with the Vikings which is a smart move by Kwesi. He is betting he can't reproduce the same magical season as last year and will be able to get Kirk for a 2-3 year deal with a better cap number. This also gives KOC and Kwesi time to draft or sign a FA replacement if Kirk decides to walk.
Hunter is a completely separate issue and I don't agree with all the stupid talking heads that want to tie Hunter's situation with getting rid of Kendricks, Peterson, Cook, Thielen, etc. as a sign we are tanking. Don't listen to Florio's propaganda. Hunter isn't going to play for $5 Million. Everyone knows that. The Vikings want to keep him but it will come down to money like it always does. I'm getting the feeling that Hunter's agents are trying to make up for signing a bad deal under Spielman so this could get a little ugly, especially if Hunter feels like he was mistreated. We already know he won't be at mandatory minicamp this week. Hopefully they can work out a fair deal to keep him but if his demands are too great the Vikings don't have to do anything. His contract for this year would toll if he refuses to play and sits out. If it gets that bad, then you can always pull the trigger on a good trade. I'm hoping with a Flores Coached Defense, that the Sum of it's parts is greater than individual Superstars. I'm also not sure how Hunter really fits in a 3-4 scheme as he already proved last year that he was having a lot of difficulty adapting to his new role and was pretty much invisible until the second half of the year. Lots to sort out. Ultimately Hunter might be more valuable to another Team where he is a better scheme fit than what the Vikings are willing to pay him, especially with extensions for JJ, TJ, Darrisaw, and potentially Cousins needing to be resolved.
This at the bold ^^^
Lazy journalism in linking the Hunter situation with the letting go of high priced, older veterans who are very likely past their primes.
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