Quote: @suncoastvike said:
@ BigAl99 said:
@ suncoastvike said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ suncoastvike said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ suncoastvike said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
Looking ahead...
i am hoping tech like Mrna can get us future vaccines even quicker than Covid-19 (which is still miraculous imo)
Hoping our country learned not to off-shore critical infrastructure like PPE (but see whats happening with semi-conductor chips right now, so I have my doubts)
Hard to bring mfg home when you can't get anybody to take a damn job of any kind.
![[Image: message-pay-working-people-extra-300-wee...C371&ssl=1]](https://i1.wp.com/politicallyincorrecthumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/message-pay-working-people-extra-300-week-see-how-fast-unemployed-get-employed.jpg?resize=518%2C371&ssl=1)
As someone who's spent my entire career around manufacturing let me add my perspective. I do disagree with making all non skilled jobs living wage jobs. That needs to be said 1st.
Now about the fallacy of returning manufacturing jobs. Who's going to retool for the real return? We shuttered most large scale manufacturing. These companies have chosen off shore parts to be assembled in the US as the new manufacturing model. Then as these ite
Yes, 'assembled in the USA' is all the rage. But with new increased transportation costs, material costs and other off-shore cost pressures, companies are starting to look back into the USA to have their items manufactured. In some cases, its less costly.
Until the US companies increase their prices and lead time. There is still not enough raw manufacturing facilities in the US to accommodate. There was a push to move parts out of China due to tariffs. Many companies chose India, Malaysia, Taiwan and Thailand. Lead times are costly I agree. However the base just ain't here to cover all the product they claim they are moving back.
I work for a Mega Corp and I'm closely inline with sourcing materials. Many US companies are simply not taking any new orders. Maybe more workers would change their minds. However I doubt the make millions in retooling investments based on a trend.
it wont happen in mass, and I doubt we would ever get back to even a fraction of what we were, but even a small shift would be a good start. IMO right now coming out of covid is a bad time to gauge how possible it could be with all the shortages hitting all industries, but this is a bump and will settle out (hopefully sooner than later) and then companies will be looking for new ways to drive revenue. gonna be a catch 22 though IMO, its gonna take a rate increase to slow the buying down so companies will be looking for more opportunities, but that would hinder them in putting money into new tooling and such.
Trust me I'm not arguing against returning raw material manufacturing back to the US. I know it will never be what it once was. 1/3 of all jobs used to be manufacturing in the US. It's now around 9% and even that is inflated by what they classify as manufacturing.
The tooling cost would only be offset if purchasing was interested in paying the extra cost they need to fund their retooling. Seeing is believing there. Alot of talk about infrastructure nowadays. How about swinging some of that money towards what made this country a super power in 2 World Wars. Our ability to flip the switch to war manufacturing. Though I must admit I take issue with giving companies money for them to make money. All in the name of job creation. Been lied to plenty there.
You add in automation and the increased productivity per person, fewer jobs same volume of product. What used to take four $17.00 jobs can be produced by one operator @ $27.00 with a single benefit package. Those displaced folk are supposed to use the "opportunity" their upgrade their skills, but can't say I have seen many using that path for upward mobility. Also the technological advancements in casting and materials has really optimized machining and primary operations, no longer do you see rows of mills and lathes, making chips isn't profitable. They have been replaced with 5 axis machining centers fed by pallet pools and tool loaders making many different parts... You don't have old school "machinists", CAD programs generate the speeds and feeds and the machining center monitors tool wear, you now have machine tenders loading parts and moving materials for "lights out" production cells. Maintenance for any manufacturing technology is farmed out to specialists, who have to stay up to date to keep their positions, usually by the machine vendor. In house maintenance is mostly PM, changing fluids and an occasional obvious switch change and safety tasks. Glad I got out of manufacturing, the good days appear to be the old days and I very much doubt the adverb "again" will used by the rank and file. The other groups I have seen replaced are pro's with Business Admin and MBA's, that used to be the ticket, now the hot office jobs are for kids with degree's in supply chain management.
You know what your saying here. I'll give you that. Those machines are around a million dollars now. That is a major investment most won't make. They lease them now and replace with new leases every few years. The used ones get sold. Perpetual lease expenses are better for some. If it goes down the leasing company repairs it.
Even drafting is obsolete because of Cad programs. Where a company used to employ several draftsmen to create and revise drawings. Now one intern from the college can do it for you. I've seen it there as well as on the floor.
Buyers are in demand and companies steal them from one another regularly.
You know it, buy you a beer. Not to hijack, but what was/is your function? I have been in automation since 1980, from etech, engineer, project engineer and hired gun for problem solving and optimization. Always providing make/buy data, for the betternment of the stock holder.
BigAl my function is to survive this new world.
I was a machinist for 28 years right out of trade school in 1981. I was a leadman and a 2nd supervisor at different points. I transferred within my company to QC in 2009 when they downsize the machining part of our division. I reinvented myself with certifications and traded CNC for CMM and VisionSystem.. Now days however lot of my job consists of documenting. I trained and got certified as an auditor. I do most our internal audits for my boss to do ISO certification audits. Another big part of my day. I generate what's called part warrants for the buyers to send out to prospective vendors. Consisting of a bubbled drawing identifying all dimensions with an inspection report. There is a program that does this as well. Forms to fill out and a list of certs required. Like material certs, RoHS cert and any plating or finish certs. They are required to submit it with a sample part that I then inspect. We do alot of business with EU countries and they require even more then Americans. So 75% of my time now is documenting scanning and emailing. However I still can't see myself as anything other then blue collar. In less then 5 years I'm done. I'm grandfathered into a pension program and 35 years worth of 401-K. It can't happen soon enough but being a simple ant in a huge farm that day may not be my call either.
So as you could see. I know where these parts are coming from. Our division has the best equipment Quality dept within our business unit. So I do this even some of our other divisions. This China exit strategy big companies like mine were moving to was not a incoming America strategy. India is a big supplier now. I must admit they are very easy to work with and they love documenting and structure. They remind me of Japan of the 1980's in many ways. Cheap yet prideful of their quality. There are still other low cost sources for less demanding parts. Malaysia, Thailand and Taiwan. They are not so easy to work with.
I feel much like a bridge from the old world of manufacturing to the new.
...and with that the hijack is complete.
Sorry 
@ suncoastvike, Nicely Done, you followed the path too few have pursued. survival looking forward…. From my perspective, what you have done, justifies my efforts. CI and managing change is the name of the game. Thanks “bridge old to new” no better legacy.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ AGRforever said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ suncoastvike said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
Looking ahead...
i am hoping tech like Mrna can get us future vaccines even quicker than Covid-19 (which is still miraculous imo)
Hoping our country learned not to off-shore critical infrastructure like PPE (but see whats happening with semi-conductor chips right now, so I have my doubts)
Hard to bring mfg home when you can't get anybody to take a damn job of any kind.
As someone who's spent my entire career around manufacturing let me add my perspective. I do disagree with making all non skilled jobs living wage jobs. That needs to be said 1st.
Now about the fallacy of returning manufacturing jobs. Who's going to retool for the real return? We shuttered most large scale manufacturing. These companies have chosen off shore parts to be assembled in the US as the new manufacturing model. Then as these ite
Yes, 'assembled in the USA' is all the rage. But with new increased transportation costs, material costs and other off-shore cost pressures, companies are starting to look back into the USA to have their items manufactured. In some cases, its less costly.
want to really make it more competitive to manufacture here and save the planet at the same time? make China and all these other countries, that are the real polluters, follow the exact same pollution standards that American companies are forced to adhere to. maybe even enforce the same labor standards ( working conditions, not wage scales) American companies have to follow, and apply tariffs on the goods that are made in places that dont meet those standards. I think we would choke on the new costs of goods, but it would level that playing field some.
You have to take the China pollution problem with a gain of salt. The reason they pollute is to create all the plastic crap we keep buying. We offshore the stuff that pollutes which decreases our footprint nationally but not globally. We're still using the the same or more stuff it just looks better on paper if the carbon comes out of a Chinese smoke stack vs and American one.
does it though? a lot of production in my industry was pushed out of this country by tighter regulations on emissions and with that production went the jobs, as far as the planet is concerned does it really care where the pollution is? also it seems that all these clean air pacts and promises to reduce emissions are hitting the Americans harder than most other industrialized countries, if its good for one its good for all IMO.
Al is right, automation has eliminated a lot of MFG in the US, one plant I buy from in southern iowa is barely recognizable now compared to 20 years ago in terms of robotics replacing humans, but there are still unskilled jobs that require humans that could pay a good wage if those factories were able to still run in the US. A lot of foundries closed down because they couldnt keep up with the clean air requirements and meet the prices of those castings coming from places that are still belching the smoke, and a lot of those foundries were in small towns all across this country. I would have to think the labor savings in asia are pretty much offset by the shipping costs so with that being a wash its just down to the cost to operate the plants that were keeping our US foundries from staying open wouldnt it?
Thats what I meant. It doesnt matter on a global scale who or how pollution happens. It affects us all
Quote: @AGRforever said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ AGRforever said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ suncoastvike said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
Looking ahead...
i am hoping tech like Mrna can get us future vaccines even quicker than Covid-19 (which is still miraculous imo)
Hoping our country learned not to off-shore critical infrastructure like PPE (but see whats happening with semi-conductor chips right now, so I have my doubts)
Hard to bring mfg home when you can't get anybody to take a damn job of any kind.
As someone who's spent my entire career around manufacturing let me add my perspective. I do disagree with making all non skilled jobs living wage jobs. That needs to be said 1st.
Now about the fallacy of returning manufacturing jobs. Who's going to retool for the real return? We shuttered most large scale manufacturing. These companies have chosen off shore parts to be assembled in the US as the new manufacturing model. Then as these ite
Yes, 'assembled in the USA' is all the rage. But with new increased transportation costs, material costs and other off-shore cost pressures, companies are starting to look back into the USA to have their items manufactured. In some cases, its less costly.
want to really make it more competitive to manufacture here and save the planet at the same time? make China and all these other countries, that are the real polluters, follow the exact same pollution standards that American companies are forced to adhere to. maybe even enforce the same labor standards ( working conditions, not wage scales) American companies have to follow, and apply tariffs on the goods that are made in places that dont meet those standards. I think we would choke on the new costs of goods, but it would level that playing field some.
You have to take the China pollution problem with a gain of salt. The reason they pollute is to create all the plastic crap we keep buying. We offshore the stuff that pollutes which decreases our footprint nationally but not globally. We're still using the the same or more stuff it just looks better on paper if the carbon comes out of a Chinese smoke stack vs and American one.
does it though? a lot of production in my industry was pushed out of this country by tighter regulations on emissions and with that production went the jobs, as far as the planet is concerned does it really care where the pollution is? also it seems that all these clean air pacts and promises to reduce emissions are hitting the Americans harder than most other industrialized countries, if its good for one its good for all IMO.
Al is right, automation has eliminated a lot of MFG in the US, one plant I buy from in southern iowa is barely recognizable now compared to 20 years ago in terms of robotics replacing humans, but there are still unskilled jobs that require humans that could pay a good wage if those factories were able to still run in the US. A lot of foundries closed down because they couldnt keep up with the clean air requirements and meet the prices of those castings coming from places that are still belching the smoke, and a lot of those foundries were in small towns all across this country. I would have to think the labor savings in asia are pretty much offset by the shipping costs so with that being a wash its just down to the cost to operate the plants that were keeping our US foundries from staying open wouldnt it?
Thats what I meant. It doesnt matter on a global scale who or how pollution happens. It affects us all
It kind of matters to me... the US loses the jobs, where the jobs go still pollutes the shit out of the planet, but then our leaders agree to global climate accords that are unfairly applied and end up hurting our country again because we have to make even deeper and more drastic pollution cuts that end up costing the US consumers and tax payers even more money... and those jobs still arent here. if they arent going to apply pollution control measures equally around the world then the US should not be part of those agreements... especially when its China that is the big polluter, i can see giving a developing country a little forgiveness in this area, but not China after all the shit that they have pulled and continue to pull.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ AGRforever said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ suncoastvike said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
Looking ahead...
i am hoping tech like Mrna can get us future vaccines even quicker than Covid-19 (which is still miraculous imo)
Hoping our country learned not to off-shore critical infrastructure like PPE (but see whats happening with semi-conductor chips right now, so I have my doubts)
Hard to bring mfg home when you can't get anybody to take a damn job of any kind.
As someone who's spent my entire career around manufacturing let me add my perspective. I do disagree with making all non skilled jobs living wage jobs. That needs to be said 1st.
Now about the fallacy of returning manufacturing jobs. Who's going to retool for the real return? We shuttered most large scale manufacturing. These companies have chosen off shore parts to be assembled in the US as the new manufacturing model. Then as these ite
Yes, 'assembled in the USA' is all the rage. But with new increased transportation costs, material costs and other off-shore cost pressures, companies are starting to look back into the USA to have their items manufactured. In some cases, its less costly.
want to really make it more competitive to manufacture here and save the planet at the same time? make China and all these other countries, that are the real polluters, follow the exact same pollution standards that American companies are forced to adhere to. maybe even enforce the same labor standards ( working conditions, not wage scales) American companies have to follow, and apply tariffs on the goods that are made in places that dont meet those standards. I think we would choke on the new costs of goods, but it would level that playing field some.
You have to take the China pollution problem with a gain of salt. The reason they pollute is to create all the plastic crap we keep buying. We offshore the stuff that pollutes which decreases our footprint nationally but not globally. We're still using the the same or more stuff it just looks better on paper if the carbon comes out of a Chinese smoke stack vs and American one.
does it though? a lot of production in my industry was pushed out of this country by tighter regulations on emissions and with that production went the jobs, as far as the planet is concerned does it really care where the pollution is? also it seems that all these clean air pacts and promises to reduce emissions are hitting the Americans harder than most other industrialized countries, if its good for one its good for all IMO.
Al is right, automation has eliminated a lot of MFG in the US, one plant I buy from in southern iowa is barely recognizable now compared to 20 years ago in terms of robotics replacing humans, but there are still unskilled jobs that require humans that could pay a good wage if those factories were able to still run in the US. A lot of foundries closed down because they couldnt keep up with the clean air requirements and meet the prices of those castings coming from places that are still belching the smoke, and a lot of those foundries were in small towns all across this country. I would have to think the labor savings in asia are pretty much offset by the shipping costs so with that being a wash its just down to the cost to operate the plants that were keeping our US foundries from staying open wouldnt it?
I was speaking to the pollution produced. The loss of jobs is a whole nother ballpark.
2 top FDA vax regulators resign in protest
......in response to Biden Admin pending policies re: youth vax/booster vaxes.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/31/biden-booster-plan-fda-508149
Pull quote:
"But for now, much of the discord within the agency centers on the administration's decision to push ahead with boosters before FDA's top scientists had a chance to weigh in.
It was “the administration's booster plan; it wasn't the FDA's booster plan,” said Paul Offit, a University of Pennsylvania infectious disease expert who sits on FDA’s vaccine advisory committee. “The administration has kind of backed themselves up against the wall a little bit here.”"
Discord @ the FDA, eh?
Thank goodness we now have a "follow the science" administration.
Which is why the Exec Branch doesnt make the final call on Boosters...
Yah, I think they got ahead of themselves with the public language. I suspect at the end of the day, science will say boosters are appropriate for a significant % of the population and lets get the immuno suppressed and others done sooner than later.
My sister for example is on Humira transfusions and her COVID anti-body count is lower than avg after MOderna jab last year. She's going to be getting 3rd jab in the next week or 2 on orders from Dr.
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