There ya did it---11 years of intensive therapy shot to heck in a handbasket.
Quote: @Akvike said:
It's the chicken or the egg---if we don't address the oline early does it matter if we draft Digg's replacement since we'll have to contend with Kirk in traction
I mean it seems like we're just kicking the can down the road till we have the next disgruntled WR if they are only decoys to stretch the field so we can run the ball underneath
They have at least been investing higher picks into the OL recently, so I think they get that they can't build a line completely out of day 3 picks and rookie free agents. I can see the merit of trying to draft a top LT to stabilize the line and maybe adding a good enough receiver in the 2nd or 3rd. It's not a bad plan and ideally we'd do both if the D wasn't such a mess right now, but that is where my concerns about trading away extra assets come up. If they trade up for a hopefully great WR or LT, then it hampers their ability to address other needs, which are plentiful right now. Long term it may make sense to grab the stud player, but short term they might get a better return rounding out the roster. It would be less of an issue if the team wasn't in cap Hell and trying to get compensation picks, but with no prospects of mid level FAs to fill out the roster, it puts a lot of pressure on rookies to perform early. It also leads to some bad situations like DT maybe not getting addressed.
If it is me, I am trading a 3rd this year and a conditional pick in 2021 (4th) for Trent Williams.
Reiff would get released.
I would trade UP to go get Ruggs III. You cannot teach 4.29 speed.
That would open up a lot of underneath routes.
Quote: @Akvike said:
It's the chicken or the egg---if we don't address the oline early does it matter if we draft Digg's replacement since we'll have to contend with Kirk in traction
I mean it seems like we're just kicking the can down the road till we have the next disgruntled WR if they are only decoys to stretch the field so we can run the ball underneath
Um, Diggs was First in catch rate over 20 yards, yards per target, tied for 1st in TDs over 20 yards and Cousins had the 5th highest QBR when throwing passes over 20 yards to Diggs.
All of that with one of the worst LGs in the League, a slow LT, a Rookie Center that went through serious growing pains and an average RG/RT combination.
Maroon and I and others kept trying to inform everyone here how major of a loss he was and used actual facts to debunk a lot of the false narratives out there about his role, production, scheme fit in a Kubiak system, etc. You all were more interested in his Twitter machinations (and 1 poster still is, which is odd since he's not a Viking any more).
Now Geoff just laid out the facts, again. And I followed it up with more facts. Losing Diggs will hurt this Offense. Period. And few Rookies, no matter how good, ever come into the League and produce like he did last season. The odds are far greater that none of none of Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs/Jefferson will eclipse a 1,000 yards next season than even 1 of them doing so.
But a Rookie deep threat can at least mitigate to some extent the loss Diggs will have on the Passing Attack. Something that Irv, Sharpe, Bisi et al simply can't do from an X and O standpoint.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ Akvike said:
It's the chicken or the egg---if we don't address the oline early does it matter if we draft Digg's replacement since we'll have to contend with Kirk in traction
I mean it seems like we're just kicking the can down the road till we have the next disgruntled WR if they are only decoys to stretch the field so we can run the ball underneath
Um, Diggs was First in catch rate over 20 yards, yards per target, tied for 1st in TDs over 20 yards and Cousins had the 5th highest QBR when throwing passes over 20 yards to Diggs.
All of that with one of the worst LGs in the League, a slow LT, a Rookie Center that went through serious growing pains and an average RG/RT combination.
Maroon and I and others kept trying to inform everyone here how major of a loss he was and used actual facts to debunk a lot of the false narratives out there about his role, production, scheme fit in a Kubiak system, etc. You all were more interested in his Twitter machinations (and 1 poster still is, which is odd since he's not a Viking any more).
Now Geoff just laid out the facts, again. And I followed it up with more facts. Losing Diggs will hurt this Offense. Period. And few Rookies, no matter how good, ever come into the League and produce like he did last season. The odds are far greater that none of none of Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs/Jefferson will eclipse a 1,000 yards next season than even 1 of them doing so.
But a Rookie deep threat can at least mitigate to some extent the loss Diggs will have on the Passing Attack. Something that Irv, Sharpe, Bisi et al simply can't do from an X and O standpoint.
Losing Diggs will hurt a lot and I agree that the best way to handle it this year is to spread out his workload across guys like Smith, Sharpe, Johnson, and a rookie. I'm just starting to familiarize myself with WR prospects, but it sounds like it is a strong WR class with a couple good deep threat options. They could try to play the depth of the draft and go after someone like Reagor to stretch the field. OL and D can't be ignored either, but I don't think the D can carry the team this year, so the best way we can help the D is to either keep them off the field or put up a lot of points.
Quote: @MarkSP18 said:
If it is me, I am trading a 3rd this year and a conditional pick in 2021 (4th) for Trent Williams.
Reiff would get released.
I would trade UP to go get Ruggs III. You cannot teach 4.29 speed.
That would open up a lot of underneath routes.
why would you cut arguably the second best OL on your team? why not look to move him inside or trade him, LTs dont grow on trees and Reiff is pretty affordable for what he does. cutting him is pretty short sighted IMO.
Quote: @MarkSP18 said:
If it is me, I am trading a 3rd this year and a conditional pick in 2021 (4th) for Trent Williams.
Reiff would get released.
I would trade UP to go get Ruggs III. You cannot teach 4.29 speed.
That would open up a lot of underneath routes.
That is a lot to pay for Trent Williams and if you want Ruggs I'm thinking you need to get up to #10 which would be very expensive. Getting to #13-15 probably makes a bit more sense.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ Akvike said:
It's the chicken or the egg---if we don't address the oline early does it matter if we draft Digg's replacement since we'll have to contend with Kirk in traction
I mean it seems like we're just kicking the can down the road till we have the next disgruntled WR if they are only decoys to stretch the field so we can run the ball underneath
Um, Diggs was First in catch rate over 20 yards, yards per target, tied for 1st in TDs over 20 yards and Cousins had the 5th highest QBR when throwing passes over 20 yards to Diggs.
All of that with one of the worst LGs in the League, a slow LT, a Rookie Center that went through serious growing pains and an average RG/RT combination.
Maroon and I and others kept trying to inform everyone here how major of a loss he was and used actual facts to debunk a lot of the false narratives out there about his role, production, scheme fit in a Kubiak system, etc. You all were more interested in his Twitter machinations (and 1 poster still is, which is odd since he's not a Viking any more).
Now Geoff just laid out the facts, again. And I followed it up with more facts. Losing Diggs will hurt this Offense. Period. And few Rookies, no matter how good, ever come into the League and produce like he did last season. The odds are far greater that none of none of Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs/Jefferson will eclipse a 1,000 yards next season than even 1 of them doing so.
But a Rookie deep threat can at least mitigate to some extent the loss Diggs will have on the Passing Attack. Something that Irv, Sharpe, Bisi et al simply can't do from an X and O standpoint.
The bold above it the real issue. You don't necessarily need 1K yards or productivity out of a rookie in year 1. But you do need someone that at least has the threat of attacking the defense or they simply won't have to respect it and key in on your biggest strengths.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ TBro said:
@ FSUVike said:
If you told me I could get Jefferson or Ruggs at #22, Jones at #25 and a 3T in the 2nd I'd be all over that. Otherwise, the depth of this Class would seem to indicate that the best value is in the 3rd.
It's so easy to want one of the guys with true #1 WR potential, though. Adam isn't getting any younger. Guys like Pittman, Johnson, Ceephus et al profile more as #2 guys IMO. Which means you're looking for another again in a few years
Of course, Lamb, Juedy, Ruggs and Jefferson may all very well be gone by #22 rendering it a moot point. Will be fascinating to see how many runs on certain position types happen this year. Do all the Tackles go early, artificially moving someone up like Jackson or Cleveland in the process? Will the same happen at Receiver? Or will guys slide? Going to be a fun watch.
I know we just lost Diggs, but I really have no interest in the Vikings addressing that position in the first round until our Oline, Dline, and CB positions get taken care of. To me, especially if they extend Cook, this needs to happen first. If anything, Diggs proves we can find WR talent in the middle to late rounds of the draft and with this year's WR depth, I'm willing to take that gamble to prioritize the trenches and fill the void left by losing 5 DB's , our Nose Tackle, and our Right DE to Free Agency.
Wow. They hit on Diggs in the 5th and exactly nothing with every other Spielman pick accept sorta Jerius Wright and you believe Rick can find another one in the same mid to late Round range? Good luck with that
You're going to need 10 seconds worth of pass protection per play this year. Diggs took the top off of Defenses with his vertical route running and his home run ability. Adam's best use is not running vertical routes nor is he a home run threat on quick hitters.
There is currently no deep ball threat on this Roster. Double Thielen, stack the box to stop Cook. Easy as pie. Smith, Bisi, Sharpe and Rudy are not deep threats. Waiting until the later rounds to find one, with Rick's track record for finding Receivers, which is actually pretty bad except for Diggs and Thielen, neither of which was even expected to Start as Rookies, is a recipe for disaster, IMO.
I would hop on this take. Is it possible they find another late round gem? Sure. But no way in heck would they be putting all of their eggs in that basket. If they knew Diggs would be the player he developed into they would have taken him before MyCole Pruitt and T.J. Clemmings. Nobody will call it luck, but its an educated guess based on scouting. Thielen would fall into the same category, but I give AT a lot more credit for his own self-development.
If you took ever single asset (maybe even more) and traded up for Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs and knew for fact they'd have a similar impact its an easy decision. Simply because they net neutral on assets and saved $9M against the cap per season for the next 4 years.
I'm not suggesting we wait until the 5th round to address our need at WR, I was just pointing out that example. Diggs was an amazing find. With a deep class this year, I would rather address both lines and our DB needs with those first round picks and come back in the 2nd or 3rd to add WR talent. Unless Lamb, Jeudy, or Ruggs falls to us at 22, none of these other WR's that are getting first round hype at our draft position are worthy to be taken that high IMO. I see a lot of mocks giving us Jefferson or Mims at 22 with some really good defensive talent like Epenesa, Chaisson, T. Diggs, getting pushed down the board. There are plenty of second Tier WR's we could get in the second or third that wouldn't be a huge drop off in talent with how deep this class is. For a team that wants to feature Cook and had to trade Diggs because he wasn't happy with his role in the passing game, why do we want to invest a first round pick in these overhyped receivers who aren't even ranked in the overall top 32? We lost 5 DB's including 3 starters. With some of the updated Mocks I'm seeing and the defensive talent available, I would take Espenesa at 22, and come back with Tre Diggs at 25 and be thrilled with the value we got. By the way, T. Diggs can also fill our Punt Returner role.
Quote: @TBro said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ TBro said:
@ FSUVike said:
If you told me I could get Jefferson or Ruggs at #22, Jones at #25 and a 3T in the 2nd I'd be all over that. Otherwise, the depth of this Class would seem to indicate that the best value is in the 3rd.
It's so easy to want one of the guys with true #1 WR potential, though. Adam isn't getting any younger. Guys like Pittman, Johnson, Ceephus et al profile more as #2 guys IMO. Which means you're looking for another again in a few years
Of course, Lamb, Juedy, Ruggs and Jefferson may all very well be gone by #22 rendering it a moot point. Will be fascinating to see how many runs on certain position types happen this year. Do all the Tackles go early, artificially moving someone up like Jackson or Cleveland in the process? Will the same happen at Receiver? Or will guys slide? Going to be a fun watch.
I know we just lost Diggs, but I really have no interest in the Vikings addressing that position in the first round until our Oline, Dline, and CB positions get taken care of. To me, especially if they extend Cook, this needs to happen first. If anything, Diggs proves we can find WR talent in the middle to late rounds of the draft and with this year's WR depth, I'm willing to take that gamble to prioritize the trenches and fill the void left by losing 5 DB's , our Nose Tackle, and our Right DE to Free Agency.
Wow. They hit on Diggs in the 5th and exactly nothing with every other Spielman pick accept sorta Jerius Wright and you believe Rick can find another one in the same mid to late Round range? Good luck with that
You're going to need 10 seconds worth of pass protection per play this year. Diggs took the top off of Defenses with his vertical route running and his home run ability. Adam's best use is not running vertical routes nor is he a home run threat on quick hitters.
There is currently no deep ball threat on this Roster. Double Thielen, stack the box to stop Cook. Easy as pie. Smith, Bisi, Sharpe and Rudy are not deep threats. Waiting until the later rounds to find one, with Rick's track record for finding Receivers, which is actually pretty bad except for Diggs and Thielen, neither of which was even expected to Start as Rookies, is a recipe for disaster, IMO.
I would hop on this take. Is it possible they find another late round gem? Sure. But no way in heck would they be putting all of their eggs in that basket. If they knew Diggs would be the player he developed into they would have taken him before MyCole Pruitt and T.J. Clemmings. Nobody will call it luck, but its an educated guess based on scouting. Thielen would fall into the same category, but I give AT a lot more credit for his own self-development.
If you took ever single asset (maybe even more) and traded up for Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs and knew for fact they'd have a similar impact its an easy decision. Simply because they net neutral on assets and saved $9M against the cap per season for the next 4 years.
I'm not suggesting we wait until the 5th round to address our need at WR, I was just pointing out that example. Diggs was an amazing find. With a deep class this year, I would rather address both lines and our DB needs with those first round picks and come back in the 2nd or 3rd to add WR talent. Unless Lamb, Jeudy, or Ruggs falls to us at 22, none of these other WR's that are getting first round hype at our draft position are worthy to be taken that high IMO. I see a lot of mocks giving us Jefferson or Mims at 22 with some really good defensive talent like Epenesa, Chaisson, T. Diggs, getting pushed down the board. There are plenty of second Tier WR's we could get in the second or third that wouldn't be a huge drop off in talent with how deep this class is. For a team that wants to feature Cook and had to trade Diggs because he wasn't happy with his role in the passing game, why do we want to invest a first round pick in these overhyped receivers who aren't even ranked in the overall top 32? We lost 5 DB's including 3 starters. With some of the updated Mocks I'm seeing and the defensive talent available, I would take Espenesa at 22, and come back with Tre Diggs at 25 and be thrilled with the value we got. By the way, T. Diggs can also fill our Punt Returner role.
Something tells me that T. Diggs isn't going to be on the Vikes radar, for some reason.
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