Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
While it may not BE worse, I think it's very possible that our line may LOOK a little worse next year.
Here's what I mean....Cousins is plenty mobile, but he's not as elusive as Keenum was. He'll probably take a few more sacks. Also, Cousins will throw the ball deep simply because he has the arm to do it. That means more 7-step drops and the need for the OL to hold their blocks longer. The good thing is that it also means that DBs will have to play the entire field. As a corner and safety, I remember loving when I played a crap-arm QB. There were parts of the field I knew I didn't have to bother with. That won't be true with Cousins.
As they were for Sam Bradford weak one, Dalvin Cook, play action, and movement are going to be Cousins' best friends. I think Flip is going to design an offense that uses all of them (plus some RPO) to help mitigate whatever protection problems arise. It might also spell an earlier entry into the starting lineup for a guy like O'Neill.
Keep in mind also...
Kirk Cousins – Cousins leads all quarterbacks within our sample in play-action passer rating. Luckily for him, Minnesota ranked second among all teams in play-action pass attempts last year, and by 35 more than the Washington Redskins, who ranked 18th. Minnesota does have a new offensive coordinator this year (John DeFilippo), who may be less aggressive in calling play-action passes than Pat Shurmur. In DeFilippo’s last year as offensive coordinator (2015 with the Browns), his team ranked 24th in play-action passes. However, perhaps he opts for a more play-action-heavy approach next season to account for Cousins’ strengths. If this is the case Cousins might be in a better situation than he was in Washington. As we mentioned earlier, team rushing attempts has a positive correlation to play-action passer rating, and Minnesota ranked second in team rushing attempts last year, while Washington ranked 22nd. -PFF
So despite the fact that Cook was out for the majority of the season, the Vikings were still able to use the play action pass effectively all year. Put him back on the team with the league's best play action passer and good things will happen.
A few points for discussion:
- I agree that Kirk is plenty mobile and will pick up some yards on the ground from time to time. But from a pocket presence point of view he isn't going to be rolling out and making plays unless the play design is moving the pocket for him. It's not so much about being elusive, but my biggest takeaway from watching his WAS tape was can he make plays when the play falls apart? There isn't an answer yet. Case was incredible at making something out of nothing. In those same moments Kirk tends to try to do too much. That is where a majority of the sack fumbles come from to be honest. Hopefully a stronger supporting cast comes into play there.
- I'm very intrigued to see how DeFilippo uses play action. The issue with play action and moving the quarterback is that you take away a portion of the field that is otherwise in play. Extreme example but if you roll Kirk to the right you already know he won't be throwing it down the weak side boundary. It works with Case because that's not a throw he's typically taking so you aren't giving it up. I think we're all going to be surprised how much RPO action we include at the expense of PA. Although RPO's have been around for years the concept fits Cousins so well. It makes the LB's and D-line hesitate without giving up a portion of the field.
- Weird stat but as the league has become a more pass driven league PA hasn't helped or hurt QB's and RB's. So although it's counter intuitive there isn't correlation between a strong running game and PA passing. The opposite is also true.
Some interesting points. But I'm not sure I agree with the bolded. Or maybe I just don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that an effective running game (and a dangerous back) doesn't help the play action?
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
While it may not BE worse, I think it's very possible that our line may LOOK a little worse next year.
Here's what I mean....Cousins is plenty mobile, but he's not as elusive as Keenum was. He'll probably take a few more sacks. Also, Cousins will throw the ball deep simply because he has the arm to do it. That means more 7-step drops and the need for the OL to hold their blocks longer. The good thing is that it also means that DBs will have to play the entire field. As a corner and safety, I remember loving when I played a crap-arm QB. There were parts of the field I knew I didn't have to bother with. That won't be true with Cousins.
As they were for Sam Bradford weak one, Dalvin Cook, play action, and movement are going to be Cousins' best friends. I think Flip is going to design an offense that uses all of them (plus some RPO) to help mitigate whatever protection problems arise. It might also spell an earlier entry into the starting lineup for a guy like O'Neill.
Keep in mind also...
Kirk Cousins – Cousins leads all quarterbacks within our sample in play-action passer rating. Luckily for him, Minnesota ranked second among all teams in play-action pass attempts last year, and by 35 more than the Washington Redskins, who ranked 18th. Minnesota does have a new offensive coordinator this year (John DeFilippo), who may be less aggressive in calling play-action passes than Pat Shurmur. In DeFilippo’s last year as offensive coordinator (2015 with the Browns), his team ranked 24th in play-action passes. However, perhaps he opts for a more play-action-heavy approach next season to account for Cousins’ strengths. If this is the case Cousins might be in a better situation than he was in Washington. As we mentioned earlier, team rushing attempts has a positive correlation to play-action passer rating, and Minnesota ranked second in team rushing attempts last year, while Washington ranked 22nd. -PFF
So despite the fact that Cook was out for the majority of the season, the Vikings were still able to use the play action pass effectively all year. Put him back on the team with the league's best play action passer and good things will happen.
A few points for discussion:
- I agree that Kirk is plenty mobile and will pick up some yards on the ground from time to time. But from a pocket presence point of view he isn't going to be rolling out and making plays unless the play design is moving the pocket for him. It's not so much about being elusive, but my biggest takeaway from watching his WAS tape was can he make plays when the play falls apart? There isn't an answer yet. Case was incredible at making something out of nothing. In those same moments Kirk tends to try to do too much. That is where a majority of the sack fumbles come from to be honest. Hopefully a stronger supporting cast comes into play there.
- I'm very intrigued to see how DeFilippo uses play action. The issue with play action and moving the quarterback is that you take away a portion of the field that is otherwise in play. Extreme example but if you roll Kirk to the right you already know he won't be throwing it down the weak side boundary. It works with Case because that's not a throw he's typically taking so you aren't giving it up. I think we're all going to be surprised how much RPO action we include at the expense of PA. Although RPO's have been around for years the concept fits Cousins so well. It makes the LB's and D-line hesitate without giving up a portion of the field.
- Weird stat but as the league has become a more pass driven league PA hasn't helped or hurt QB's and RB's. So although it's counter intuitive there isn't correlation between a strong running game and PA passing. The opposite is also true.
Some interesting points. But I'm not sure I agree with the bolded. Or maybe I just don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that an effective running game (and a dangerous back) doesn't help the play action?
Play action passing relationships are weird. As a whole, play action passes are more effective than non play action passes. So clearly it is valuable and has an important spot in the game today. But running game success has no correlation with how well play action works. So regardless if you have Adrian Peterson in his prime or Trent Richardson the success rate of play action is similar. You'd think the better back would open up the passing game but the action of faking a hand-off seems to make the impact by itself.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
While it may not BE worse, I think it's very possible that our line may LOOK a little worse next year.
Here's what I mean....Cousins is plenty mobile, but he's not as elusive as Keenum was. He'll probably take a few more sacks. Also, Cousins will throw the ball deep simply because he has the arm to do it. That means more 7-step drops and the need for the OL to hold their blocks longer. The good thing is that it also means that DBs will have to play the entire field. As a corner and safety, I remember loving when I played a crap-arm QB. There were parts of the field I knew I didn't have to bother with. That won't be true with Cousins.
As they were for Sam Bradford weak one, Dalvin Cook, play action, and movement are going to be Cousins' best friends. I think Flip is going to design an offense that uses all of them (plus some RPO) to help mitigate whatever protection problems arise. It might also spell an earlier entry into the starting lineup for a guy like O'Neill.
Keep in mind also...
Kirk Cousins – Cousins leads all quarterbacks within our sample in play-action passer rating. Luckily for him, Minnesota ranked second among all teams in play-action pass attempts last year, and by 35 more than the Washington Redskins, who ranked 18th. Minnesota does have a new offensive coordinator this year (John DeFilippo), who may be less aggressive in calling play-action passes than Pat Shurmur. In DeFilippo’s last year as offensive coordinator (2015 with the Browns), his team ranked 24th in play-action passes. However, perhaps he opts for a more play-action-heavy approach next season to account for Cousins’ strengths. If this is the case Cousins might be in a better situation than he was in Washington. As we mentioned earlier, team rushing attempts has a positive correlation to play-action passer rating, and Minnesota ranked second in team rushing attempts last year, while Washington ranked 22nd. -PFF
So despite the fact that Cook was out for the majority of the season, the Vikings were still able to use the play action pass effectively all year. Put him back on the team with the league's best play action passer and good things will happen.
A few points for discussion:
- I agree that Kirk is plenty mobile and will pick up some yards on the ground from time to time. But from a pocket presence point of view he isn't going to be rolling out and making plays unless the play design is moving the pocket for him. It's not so much about being elusive, but my biggest takeaway from watching his WAS tape was can he make plays when the play falls apart? There isn't an answer yet. Case was incredible at making something out of nothing. In those same moments Kirk tends to try to do too much. That is where a majority of the sack fumbles come from to be honest. Hopefully a stronger supporting cast comes into play there.
- I'm very intrigued to see how DeFilippo uses play action. The issue with play action and moving the quarterback is that you take away a portion of the field that is otherwise in play. Extreme example but if you roll Kirk to the right you already know he won't be throwing it down the weak side boundary. It works with Case because that's not a throw he's typically taking so you aren't giving it up. I think we're all going to be surprised how much RPO action we include at the expense of PA. Although RPO's have been around for years the concept fits Cousins so well. It makes the LB's and D-line hesitate without giving up a portion of the field.
- Weird stat but as the league has become a more pass driven league PA hasn't helped or hurt QB's and RB's. So although it's counter intuitive there isn't correlation between a strong running game and PA passing. The opposite is also true.
Some interesting points. But I'm not sure I agree with the bolded. Or maybe I just don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that an effective running game (and a dangerous back) doesn't help the play action?
Play action passing relationships are weird. As a whole, play action passes are more effective than non play action passes. So clearly it is valuable and has an important spot in the game today. But running game success has no correlation with how well play action works. So regardless if you have Adrian Peterson in his prime or Trent Richardson the success rate of play action is similar. You'd think the better back would open up the passing game but the action of faking a hand-off seems to make the impact by itself.
I'm assuming you have some sort of statistic that proves this so I won't argue with it. If so its very surprising. I would think a back safeties sell out for would make play action more successful. At any rate, here is an interesting breakdown of what Philly did last year with its play action and RPO in the Super Bowl. I suspect we'll be seeing some of this...
https://blogs.usafootball.com/blog/5687/...am-can-run
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