Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
From Florida's Pro Day today;
"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."
I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner.
McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft.
Well that would be interesting. I just wouldn't take a guy with is 5'10" and change with shorter then ideal arms with an early first round pick when I can get a similarly talented player later on in the draft. Like Guru, I just don't see the huge talent difference between McDuffie and some of these second and third round cornerback prospects. Sauce and Stingley...different story.
Maybe a little out of context. There is a difference in talent but we're talking about a difference in pick #12 and a pick in the 40s-50s. There is a difference. Elam also won't last that long into the 2nd either.
I've watched plenty of the CB class to come to a few conclusions.
- Sauce is the "safest" CB in the draft. He's sticky and has the size/length to be very disruptive on the perimeter. But reality is his highest upside isn't going to be chasing a #1 receive around the field its going to be in a Cover-3/4 system where we can work down the field and let the in-breaking stuff go. The floor is pretty high but he may end up being a system corner at worst.
- Stingley is by far the most talented CB in the draft. His 2019 film is arguably the best I've ever watched for a CB. The foot injury scares me more than the tape in 2020/21, mainly because a lot of the drop-off in his film was due to the impossibility of improving on 2019. He struggled at time vs. Devonte Smith but if he puts it together he is a top 5 CB who can do everything within 2 years. I also think the floor is higher than most believe. Even if he isn't 2019 Stingley he still is a very high-end CB2. So little flame-out risk in my opinion.
- McDuffie is not a slouch. His "size" concern(s) is solely the arm length. The height/weight will play. I think the question you need to ask with McDuffie, is how will you play him? If you want him in press man 70% of the game, he isn't your guy. If you will let him play off and want him to sit in zone, well then you have a lot of value on your hands. Point is if you watch how the Bears (Fangio system) used Kyle Fuller... there is a lot of similarities in their play styles. Value wise he fits the Vikings and what they want to do at #12.
As you can see there isn't a large gap between either of these 3. Arguably you could say that about the next 3-4 guys as well.
Where I personally draw the line today is I'd considering Sauce a shoe-in, run to the podium pick if he made it to #12. I would likely take Stingley regardless of what was left on the board if the health checked out. McDuffie, I would considering a select few other players. Mainly Jermaine Johnson or another blue-chip EDGE or Hamilton. If neither of those guys are there I would take him right at #12.
Very good breakdown. I agree with pretty much everything here....except the floors. I would call McDuffie the safest of them...and the highest floor. He may not have the upside of Sauce or Stingley, but I think he has the highest floor.
Not that Stingley and Sauce have ANYTHING in common with the corners in 2020, but I keep thinking of that class when Okudah and Henderson were consensus top 10 corners. Okudah went #3 overall. Henderson #9. Both have been awful.
CJ seems like a lost cause, but Okudah may get there. Denzel Ward was taken #4 two years prior and that turned out pretty well. I know you like McDuffie and thats fine, but Sauce seems like “That Dude” to me. Nick Saban must have felt the same since they didnt really look his way in that game.
It’s a deep CB class which is exciting for us…I just want to select one who can be above average for two contracts with the Vikes. That’d be nice
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
From Florida's Pro Day today;
"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."
I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner.
McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft.
Well that would be interesting. I just wouldn't take a guy with is 5'10" and change with shorter then ideal arms with an early first round pick when I can get a similarly talented player later on in the draft. Like Guru, I just don't see the huge talent difference between McDuffie and some of these second and third round cornerback prospects. Sauce and Stingley...different story.
Maybe a little out of context. There is a difference in talent but we're talking about a difference in pick #12 and a pick in the 40s-50s. There is a difference. Elam also won't last that long into the 2nd either.
I've watched plenty of the CB class to come to a few conclusions.
- Sauce is the "safest" CB in the draft. He's sticky and has the size/length to be very disruptive on the perimeter. But reality is his highest upside isn't going to be chasing a #1 receive around the field its going to be in a Cover-3/4 system where we can work down the field and let the in-breaking stuff go. The floor is pretty high but he may end up being a system corner at worst.
- Stingley is by far the most talented CB in the draft. His 2019 film is arguably the best I've ever watched for a CB. The foot injury scares me more than the tape in 2020/21, mainly because a lot of the drop-off in his film was due to the impossibility of improving on 2019. He struggled at time vs. Devonte Smith but if he puts it together he is a top 5 CB who can do everything within 2 years. I also think the floor is higher than most believe. Even if he isn't 2019 Stingley he still is a very high-end CB2. So little flame-out risk in my opinion.
- McDuffie is not a slouch. His "size" concern(s) is solely the arm length. The height/weight will play. I think the question you need to ask with McDuffie, is how will you play him? If you want him in press man 70% of the game, he isn't your guy. If you will let him play off and want him to sit in zone, well then you have a lot of value on your hands. Point is if you watch how the Bears (Fangio system) used Kyle Fuller... there is a lot of similarities in their play styles. Value wise he fits the Vikings and what they want to do at #12.
As you can see there isn't a large gap between either of these 3. Arguably you could say that about the next 3-4 guys as well.
Where I personally draw the line today is I'd considering Sauce a shoe-in, run to the podium pick if he made it to #12. I would likely take Stingley regardless of what was left on the board if the health checked out. McDuffie, I would considering a select few other players. Mainly Jermaine Johnson or another blue-chip EDGE or Hamilton. If neither of those guys are there I would take him right at #12.
Very good breakdown. I agree with pretty much everything here....except the floors. I would call McDuffie the safest of them...and the highest floor. He may not have the upside of Sauce or Stingley, but I think he has the highest floor.
Not that Stingley and Sauce have ANYTHING in common with the corners in 2020, but I keep thinking of that class when Okudah and Henderson were consensus top 10 corners. Okudah went #3 overall. Henderson #9. Both have been awful.
I can get on board with that. I personally thought Okudah would be good, injuries really have derailed him though so I'll give him one more season. Henderson was more traits than anything else. I was high on Terrell.
On that note I was thinking about McDuffie and corners historically with short arms. Very different players but the last All-Pro corner with arms under 30" was Asante Samuel. Proves it can be done but it takes a special player.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
From Florida's Pro Day today;
"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."
I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner.
McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft.
Well that would be interesting. I just wouldn't take a guy with is 5'10" and change with shorter then ideal arms with an early first round pick when I can get a similarly talented player later on in the draft. Like Guru, I just don't see the huge talent difference between McDuffie and some of these second and third round cornerback prospects. Sauce and Stingley...different story.
Maybe a little out of context. There is a difference in talent but we're talking about a difference in pick #12 and a pick in the 40s-50s. There is a difference. Elam also won't last that long into the 2nd either.
I've watched plenty of the CB class to come to a few conclusions.
- Sauce is the "safest" CB in the draft. He's sticky and has the size/length to be very disruptive on the perimeter. But reality is his highest upside isn't going to be chasing a #1 receive around the field its going to be in a Cover-3/4 system where we can work down the field and let the in-breaking stuff go. The floor is pretty high but he may end up being a system corner at worst.
- Stingley is by far the most talented CB in the draft. His 2019 film is arguably the best I've ever watched for a CB. The foot injury scares me more than the tape in 2020/21, mainly because a lot of the drop-off in his film was due to the impossibility of improving on 2019. He struggled at time vs. Devonte Smith but if he puts it together he is a top 5 CB who can do everything within 2 years. I also think the floor is higher than most believe. Even if he isn't 2019 Stingley he still is a very high-end CB2. So little flame-out risk in my opinion.
- McDuffie is not a slouch. His "size" concern(s) is solely the arm length. The height/weight will play. I think the question you need to ask with McDuffie, is how will you play him? If you want him in press man 70% of the game, he isn't your guy. If you will let him play off and want him to sit in zone, well then you have a lot of value on your hands. Point is if you watch how the Bears (Fangio system) used Kyle Fuller... there is a lot of similarities in their play styles. Value wise he fits the Vikings and what they want to do at #12.
As you can see there isn't a large gap between either of these 3. Arguably you could say that about the next 3-4 guys as well.
Where I personally draw the line today is I'd considering Sauce a shoe-in, run to the podium pick if he made it to #12. I would likely take Stingley regardless of what was left on the board if the health checked out. McDuffie, I would considering a select few other players. Mainly Jermaine Johnson or another blue-chip EDGE or Hamilton. If neither of those guys are there I would take him right at #12.
Very good breakdown. I agree with pretty much everything here....except the floors. I would call McDuffie the safest of them...and the highest floor. He may not have the upside of Sauce or Stingley, but I think he has the highest floor.
Not that Stingley and Sauce have ANYTHING in common with the corners in 2020, but I keep thinking of that class when Okudah and Henderson were consensus top 10 corners. Okudah went #3 overall. Henderson #9. Both have been awful.
I can get on board with that. I personally thought Okudah would be good, injuries really have derailed him though so I'll give him one more season. Henderson was more traits than anything else. I was high on Terrell.
On that note I was thinking about McDuffie and corners historically with short arms. Very different players but the last All-Pro corner with arms under 30" was Asante Samuel. Proves it can be done but it takes a special player.
I just don't know what to think about the short arms. It's just sounds like a canard to me. A misleading factor that seems to have more relevance than it really does.
For example, you could say QBs with hands smaller than 9 inches have never won a Super Bowl. Damn, don't draft QBs with hands under 9 inches! But if less than 2% of QBs in history have hands under 9 inches, how relevant can it be?
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
From Florida's Pro Day today;
"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."
I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner.
McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft.
Well that would be interesting. I just wouldn't take a guy with is 5'10" and change with shorter then ideal arms with an early first round pick when I can get a similarly talented player later on in the draft. Like Guru, I just don't see the huge talent difference between McDuffie and some of these second and third round cornerback prospects. Sauce and Stingley...different story.
Maybe a little out of context. There is a difference in talent but we're talking about a difference in pick #12 and a pick in the 40s-50s. There is a difference. Elam also won't last that long into the 2nd either.
I've watched plenty of the CB class to come to a few conclusions.
- Sauce is the "safest" CB in the draft. He's sticky and has the size/length to be very disruptive on the perimeter. But reality is his highest upside isn't going to be chasing a #1 receive around the field its going to be in a Cover-3/4 system where we can work down the field and let the in-breaking stuff go. The floor is pretty high but he may end up being a system corner at worst.
- Stingley is by far the most talented CB in the draft. His 2019 film is arguably the best I've ever watched for a CB. The foot injury scares me more than the tape in 2020/21, mainly because a lot of the drop-off in his film was due to the impossibility of improving on 2019. He struggled at time vs. Devonte Smith but if he puts it together he is a top 5 CB who can do everything within 2 years. I also think the floor is higher than most believe. Even if he isn't 2019 Stingley he still is a very high-end CB2. So little flame-out risk in my opinion.
- McDuffie is not a slouch. His "size" concern(s) is solely the arm length. The height/weight will play. I think the question you need to ask with McDuffie, is how will you play him? If you want him in press man 70% of the game, he isn't your guy. If you will let him play off and want him to sit in zone, well then you have a lot of value on your hands. Point is if you watch how the Bears (Fangio system) used Kyle Fuller... there is a lot of similarities in their play styles. Value wise he fits the Vikings and what they want to do at #12.
As you can see there isn't a large gap between either of these 3. Arguably you could say that about the next 3-4 guys as well.
Where I personally draw the line today is I'd considering Sauce a shoe-in, run to the podium pick if he made it to #12. I would likely take Stingley regardless of what was left on the board if the health checked out. McDuffie, I would considering a select few other players. Mainly Jermaine Johnson or another blue-chip EDGE or Hamilton. If neither of those guys are there I would take him right at #12.
Very good breakdown. I agree with pretty much everything here....except the floors. I would call McDuffie the safest of them...and the highest floor. He may not have the upside of Sauce or Stingley, but I think he has the highest floor.
Not that Stingley and Sauce have ANYTHING in common with the corners in 2020, but I keep thinking of that class when Okudah and Henderson were consensus top 10 corners. Okudah went #3 overall. Henderson #9. Both have been awful.
I can get on board with that. I personally thought Okudah would be good, injuries really have derailed him though so I'll give him one more season. Henderson was more traits than anything else. I was high on Terrell.
On that note I was thinking about McDuffie and corners historically with short arms. Very different players but the last All-Pro corner with arms under 30" was Asante Samuel. Proves it can be done but it takes a special player.
I just don't know what to think about the short arms. It's just sounds like a canard to me. A misleading factor that seems to have more relevance than it really does.
For example, you could say QBs with hands smaller than 9 inches have never won a Super Bowl. Damn, don't draft QBs with hands under 9 inches! But if less than 2% of QBs in history have hands under 9 inches, how relevant can it be?
I think some of the "short-arms" talk is overrated. Its a larger deal if you want a guy to play at the LOS on press since you're going to be out leveraged by larger receivers. That won't be an issue for MCD. What could be an issue in the NFL is contested catch situations. Its not any more complicated than it sounds, you just have less length to disrupt the passing lane and shoot through the receivers hands. Basically, he needs to be a 1/2" tigher to the receiver than a guy with 1/2" longer arms. Is that an issue? It wasn't in college. In the NFL with receivers that play with better leverage? Maybe.
Its no death sentence but I think you need to just hyper-analyze his role in the defense. None of the top 5-10 corners in the league have a lack of size/physical presence. There is a reason for that.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
I just don't know what to think about the short arms. It's just sounds like a canard to me. A misleading factor that seems to have more relevance than it really does.
For example, you could say QBs with hands smaller than 9 inches have never won a Super Bowl. Damn, don't draft QBs with hands under 9 inches! But if less than 2% of QBs in history have hands under 9 inches, how relevant can it be?
I think some of the "short-arms" talk is overrated. Its a larger deal if you want a guy to play at the LOS on press since you're going to be out leveraged by larger receivers. That won't be an issue for MCD. What could be an issue in the NFL is contested catch situations. Its not any more complicated than it sounds, you just have less length to disrupt the passing lane and shoot through the receivers hands. Basically, he needs to be a 1/2" tigher to the receiver than a guy with 1/2" longer arms. Is that an issue? It wasn't in college. In the NFL with receivers that play with better leverage? Maybe.
Its no death sentence but I think you need to just hyper-analyze his role in the defense. None of the top 5-10 corners in the league have a lack of size/physical presence. There is a reason for that.
Geoff, what's your take on Andrew Booth? I know he had core surgery recently (shades of Darrisaw), but he looks like he checks off a lot of the boxes that Gardner and Stingley have, just maybe not as consistent. You think he could be in play at 12, or more likely in a trade back?
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
From Florida's Pro Day today;
"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."
I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner.
McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft.
Well that would be interesting. I just wouldn't take a guy with is 5'10" and change with shorter then ideal arms with an early first round pick when I can get a similarly talented player later on in the draft. Like Guru, I just don't see the huge talent difference between McDuffie and some of these second and third round cornerback prospects. Sauce and Stingley...different story.
Maybe a little out of context. There is a difference in talent but we're talking about a difference in pick #12 and a pick in the 40s-50s. There is a difference. Elam also won't last that long into the 2nd either.
I've watched plenty of the CB class to come to a few conclusions.
- Sauce is the "safest" CB in the draft. He's sticky and has the size/length to be very disruptive on the perimeter. But reality is his highest upside isn't going to be chasing a #1 receive around the field its going to be in a Cover-3/4 system where we can work down the field and let the in-breaking stuff go. The floor is pretty high but he may end up being a system corner at worst.
- Stingley is by far the most talented CB in the draft. His 2019 film is arguably the best I've ever watched for a CB. The foot injury scares me more than the tape in 2020/21, mainly because a lot of the drop-off in his film was due to the impossibility of improving on 2019. He struggled at time vs. Devonte Smith but if he puts it together he is a top 5 CB who can do everything within 2 years. I also think the floor is higher than most believe. Even if he isn't 2019 Stingley he still is a very high-end CB2. So little flame-out risk in my opinion.
- McDuffie is not a slouch. His "size" concern(s) is solely the arm length. The height/weight will play. I think the question you need to ask with McDuffie, is how will you play him? If you want him in press man 70% of the game, he isn't your guy. If you will let him play off and want him to sit in zone, well then you have a lot of value on your hands. Point is if you watch how the Bears (Fangio system) used Kyle Fuller... there is a lot of similarities in their play styles. Value wise he fits the Vikings and what they want to do at #12.
As you can see there isn't a large gap between either of these 3. Arguably you could say that about the next 3-4 guys as well.
Where I personally draw the line today is I'd considering Sauce a shoe-in, run to the podium pick if he made it to #12. I would likely take Stingley regardless of what was left on the board if the health checked out. McDuffie, I would considering a select few other players. Mainly Jermaine Johnson or another blue-chip EDGE or Hamilton. If neither of those guys are there I would take him right at #12.
Very good breakdown. I agree with pretty much everything here....except the floors. I would call McDuffie the safest of them...and the highest floor. He may not have the upside of Sauce or Stingley, but I think he has the highest floor.
Not that Stingley and Sauce have ANYTHING in common with the corners in 2020, but I keep thinking of that class when Okudah and Henderson were consensus top 10 corners. Okudah went #3 overall. Henderson #9. Both have been awful.
I can get on board with that. I personally thought Okudah would be good, injuries really have derailed him though so I'll give him one more season. Henderson was more traits than anything else. I was high on Terrell.
On that note I was thinking about McDuffie and corners historically with short arms. Very different players but the last All-Pro corner with arms under 30" was Asante Samuel. Proves it can be done but it takes a special player.
I just don't know what to think about the short arms. It's just sounds like a canard to me. A misleading factor that seems to have more relevance than it really does.
For example, you could say QBs with hands smaller than 9 inches have never won a Super Bowl. Damn, don't draft QBs with hands under 9 inches! But if less than 2% of QBs in history have hands under 9 inches, how relevant can it be?
I think some of the "short-arms" talk is overrated. Its a larger deal if you want a guy to play at the LOS on press since you're going to be out leveraged by larger receivers. That won't be an issue for MCD. What could be an issue in the NFL is contested catch situations. Its not any more complicated than it sounds, you just have less length to disrupt the passing lane and shoot through the receivers hands. Basically, he needs to be a 1/2" tigher to the receiver than a guy with 1/2" longer arms. Is that an issue? It wasn't in college. In the NFL with receivers that play with better leverage? Maybe.
Its no death sentence but I think you need to just hyper-analyze his role in the defense. None of the top 5-10 corners in the league have a lack of size/physical presence. There is a reason for that.
I'm not a fan, but he did vertical 38.5" at his pro day so he has some hops to contest some of those go up and get it type throws. I think my biggest problem with him though is that he never faced anybody in the Pac 12, and just why was Washington's defense so bad despite fielding potentially two 1st round picks at cornerback? I would have loved to see him go up against Drake London because that would have told us all we needed to know about him going up against bigger, talented receivers at the next level.
Stingley seems to have the potential to be one of the best in the league. He sure seems to have the physical abilities to do so. Unfortunately, he was that guy 2 years ago. They say he has been making business decisions since. He should have a great pro day tomorrow. But when it comes to the pros, I worry about his longevity.
But his upside is so great, it may be worth the gamble. This new defensive scheme would benefit greatly if it had a CB that could play press coverage. I would move up for the sauce if he would fall within reach.
Quote: @jargomcfargo said:
Stingley seems to have the potential to be one of the best in the league. He sure seems to have the physical abilities to do so. Unfortunately, he was that guy 2 years ago. They say he has been making business decisions since. He should have a great pro day tomorrow. But when it comes to the pros, I worry about his longevity.
But his upside is so great, it may be worth the gamble. This new defensive scheme would benefit greatly if it had a CB that could play press coverage. I would move up for the sauce if he would fall within reach.
Yep. I wish it were as simple as the injury thing, but there's some buzz that there might be more to it than that. Worth the gamble at 12? Maybe. Undecided.
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