Quote: @"Amazonviking" said:
Lets say he goes Oline and misses on the 1st round pick only to have a stud DT who was rated much higher get taken right after we draft the 4th rated linemen? We end up missing the playoffs because our DT's suck and teams run up the gut on us and keep Cousin's off the field.
I think you have to balance need and BPA. I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying that 4th rated linemen is going to comp much lower that the 4th rated DT.
The best teams, trust their boards in the draft and use free agency to fill need.
I guess I don't know why some fans think our DTs are going to suck because we lost Sheldon Richardson. In my opinion, our run defense was MUCH better in 2017 with Linval and Shamar Stephen on early downs and Tom Johnson subbing in on obvious passing downs. Neither of those guys have the pure talent that Sheldon does, but collectively they were better for our defense.
The beauty of this draft and where the Vikings are picking... that 4th rated OL might be the #1 rated interior OL in the draft pool. You could argue that would be the better pick in terms of BPA compared to taking the 4th best DT in your hypothetical above.
Quote: @"Wetlander" said:
@"Amazonviking" said:
Lets say he goes Oline and misses on the 1st round pick only to have a stud DT who was rated much higher get taken right after we draft the 4th rated linemen? We end up missing the playoffs because our DT's suck and teams run up the gut on us and keep Cousin's off the field.
I think you have to balance need and BPA. I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying that 4th rated linemen is going to comp much lower that the 4th rated DT.
The best teams, trust their boards in the draft and use free agency to fill need.
I guess I don't know why some fans think our DTs are going to suck because we lost Sheldon Richardson. In my opinion, our run defense was MUCH better in 2017 with Linval and Shamar Stephen on early downs and Tom Johnson subbing in on obvious passing downs. Neither of those guys have the pure talent that Sheldon does, but collectively they were better for our defense.
The beauty of this draft and where the Vikings are picking... that 4th rated OL might be the #1 rated interior OL in the draft pool. You could argue that would be the better pick in terms of BPA compared to taking the 4th best DT in your hypothetical above.
If the Vikings don't find a way to push the pocket in 2019 they are doing to have some issues generating consistent pressure like they did late in the 2018 season. Linval and Shamar are a good run stuffing duo but I do think part of Shamar's role will be keeping Linval fresh since his workload caught up with him last season. Jaleel Johnson is the most natural 3-tech they have on the roster but he is somewhat unproven and could be the rotational piece if they add an impact rookie.
Late in the 2018 season teams started to leave their QB shallow in the pocket since they could cut down on the rush arc and prevent the DE's from getting too deep. The Vikings couldn't get the push to stop it. In 2019 Sheldon took that out of the equation and the DE's benefited tremendously. Heck, I think we may have an entirely different opinion on Weatherly without Sheldon in the middle last season.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
Fant is an interesting talent and athlete, but I can't imagine the scrutiny Spielman would be under for ignoring the offensive line once again after last season. If Cousins gets killed again and we miss the playoffs I could see Spielman getting canned. Going with anything but an offensive lineman with our first pick would be a ballsy, ballsy move by Spielman.
I think Spielman is probably in big trouble if the Vikings don't make the playoffs regardless. Zimmer would fall into that same boat but to a smaller degree.
Interesting you say that. Because I think a truly objective take on that would put more blame at the feet of Zimmer than Spielman. This team is certainly not lacking in talent. It does, however, frequently get outsmarted on game day.
Of course a Cousins failure in year two could swing that pendulum more in Spielman's direction.
Quote: @"Wetlander" said:
@"Amazonviking" said:
Lets say he goes Oline and misses on the 1st round pick only to have a stud DT who was rated much higher get taken right after we draft the 4th rated linemen? We end up missing the playoffs because our DT's suck and teams run up the gut on us and keep Cousin's off the field.
I think you have to balance need and BPA. I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying that 4th rated linemen is going to comp much lower that the 4th rated DT.
The best teams, trust their boards in the draft and use free agency to fill need.
I guess I don't know why some fans think our DTs are going to suck because we lost Sheldon Richardson. In my opinion, our run defense was MUCH better in 2017 with Linval and Shamar Stephen on early downs and Tom Johnson subbing in on obvious passing downs. Neither of those guys have the pure talent that Sheldon does, but collectively they were better for our defense.
The beauty of this draft and where the Vikings are picking... that 4th rated OL might be the #1 rated interior OL in the draft pool. You could argue that would be the better pick in terms of BPA compared to taking the 4th best DT in your hypothetical above.
I'm not comfortable with our DTs. The thing I keep coming back to is what happens when we take Linval out on obvious passing downs. Our interior rushers are limited to Stephen, Johnson and Holmes. That doesn't give me a lot of confidence and I believe the Vikings will address that before the end of day two.
What I have a problem understanding is why the DTs around pick 18 are so much better than the OLs in that area. I don't think that's necessarily true in this draft.
My take on the matter is who gives a shit about our DTs if our OLine sucks. We've literally seen our OLine remove us from playoff contention 2 of the last 3 years. And the one year we had a somewhat decent OLine we went to the championship game. We've had a top 5 defense how many years in a row now? The defense will show up. Give me a top 10 offense with a top 10 rushing game and a top 10 passing game. That will do more than any DT available to us in the first or second and its starts with the OLine.
I'd rather draft a top OL to be a backup at this point than to draft another defender.
Quote: @"MaroonBells" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
Fant is an interesting talent and athlete, but I can't imagine the scrutiny Spielman would be under for ignoring the offensive line once again after last season. If Cousins gets killed again and we miss the playoffs I could see Spielman getting canned. Going with anything but an offensive lineman with our first pick would be a ballsy, ballsy move by Spielman.
I think Spielman is probably in big trouble if the Vikings don't make the playoffs regardless. Zimmer would fall into that same boat but to a smaller degree.
Interesting you say that. Because I think a truly objective take on that would put more blame at the feet of Zimmer than Spielman. This team is certainly not lacking in talent. It does, however, frequently get outsmarted on game day.
Of course a Cousins failure in year two could swing that pendulum more in Spielman's direction.
No team will go far with a bottom 5 OL. That is Spielman. Who rolled the dice with an an injured Easton and an injured Elflein? Spielman. Who drafted a project OT, pushed Remmers (who's off the team) to RG where he sucked in 2017 and started Hill at RT (who got pushed to the bench)? Spielman. What is Zimmers fault is getting JDF and not having a mentor for him unless you count Sparano his mentor in which case that was bad luck.
Quote: @"medaille" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
Fant is an interesting talent and athlete, but I can't imagine the scrutiny Spielman would be under for ignoring the offensive line once again after last season. If Cousins gets killed again and we miss the playoffs I could see Spielman getting canned. Going with anything but an offensive lineman with our first pick would be a ballsy, ballsy move by Spielman.
I think Spielman is probably in big trouble if the Vikings don't make the playoffs regardless. Zimmer would fall into that same boat but to a smaller degree.
Interesting you say that. Because I think a truly objective take on that would put more blame at the feet of Zimmer than Spielman. This team is certainly not lacking in talent. It does, however, frequently get outsmarted on game day.
Of course a Cousins failure in year two could swing that pendulum more in Spielman's direction.
No team will go far with a bottom 5 OL. That is Spielman. Who rolled the dice with an an injured Easton and an injured Elflein? Spielman. Who drafted a project OT, pushed Remmers (who's off the team) to RG where he sucked in 2017 and started Hill at RT (who got pushed to the bench)? Spielman. What is Zimmers fault is getting JDF and not having a mentor for him unless you count Sparano his mentor in which case that was bad luck.
With one of the best rosters in the NFL surrounding that offensive line...and a lot of bad luck there as well. For example, I don't blame Rick for Loadholts career ending injury, or Mike Harris' career ending injury or Easton's injury or Sparano's death.
Sure, he probably should've moved OL up a round or two in the last 5 years. I've always been an advocate of taking OL in either the 2nd or 3rd round in every draft. Two, three years ago, Rick's OL sweet spot was the 4th round and it failed. Every time. Blame him for that all you want.
As I said, I'm all for moving that up to day two. But if you're fair, you have to at least also acknowledge that if we did, we may not have Erik Kendricks or Danielle Hunter or Mac Alexander.
Quote: @"Wetlander" said:
@"Amazonviking" said:
Lets say he goes Oline and misses on the 1st round pick only to have a stud DT who was rated much higher get taken right after we draft the 4th rated linemen? We end up missing the playoffs because our DT's suck and teams run up the gut on us and keep Cousin's off the field.
I think you have to balance need and BPA. I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying that 4th rated linemen is going to comp much lower that the 4th rated DT.
The best teams, trust their boards in the draft and use free agency to fill need.
I guess I don't know why some fans think our DTs are going to suck because we lost Sheldon Richardson. In my opinion, our run defense was MUCH better in 2017 with Linval and Shamar Stephen on early downs and Tom Johnson subbing in on obvious passing downs. Neither of those guys have the pure talent that Sheldon does, but collectively they were better for our defense.
The beauty of this draft and where the Vikings are picking... that 4th rated OL might be the #1 rated interior OL in the draft pool. You could argue that would be the better pick in terms of BPA compared to taking the 4th best DT in your hypothetical above.
I think there is one lineman that I would agree with you on and that is Lindstrom. He would be a great fit in our scheme, but is limited in his upside. I could easily be swayed that he is a better target than Jonah Williams. The point you are making would put Lindstrom right in out scope at 18. I would just compare him to taking Bridgewater at qb. What you get in year 1 isnt going to be too far from away from what you get in year 6, high floor low ceiling, wont suck as a rookie but probably never going to be an all pro and to me if you dont see all pro caliber in a prospect at guard you dont take him in the 1st.
Quote: @"medaille" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
Fant is an interesting talent and athlete, but I can't imagine the scrutiny Spielman would be under for ignoring the offensive line once again after last season. If Cousins gets killed again and we miss the playoffs I could see Spielman getting canned. Going with anything but an offensive lineman with our first pick would be a ballsy, ballsy move by Spielman.
I think Spielman is probably in big trouble if the Vikings don't make the playoffs regardless. Zimmer would fall into that same boat but to a smaller degree.
Interesting you say that. Because I think a truly objective take on that would put more blame at the feet of Zimmer than Spielman. This team is certainly not lacking in talent. It does, however, frequently get outsmarted on game day.
Of course a Cousins failure in year two could swing that pendulum more in Spielman's direction.
No team will go far with a bottom 5 OL. That is Spielman. Who rolled the dice with an an injured Easton and an injured Elflein? Spielman. Who drafted a project OT, pushed Remmers (who's off the team) to RG where he sucked in 2017 and started Hill at RT (who got pushed to the bench)? Spielman. What is Zimmers fault is getting JDF and not having a mentor for him unless you count Sparano his mentor in which case that was bad luck.
Yup. Blaming "circumstances" for your incompetence at fixing a problem of your own creation is just stupidity. "What was Ricky supposed to do?".....Um, I don't know, maybe NOT fuck it up in the first place? Just spit-ballin'.
On another note, at what point will the Vikings fan base cease and desist with the "most talented roster" schpiel? Because I've been HEARING that the last few seasons, but I haven't been SEEING it. Even looking at 2017 , most fans agree that Case had a "horseshoe up his ass", accounting for the anomaly of a 13 win season, coupled with a literal "once-in-a-lifetime-miraculous" playoff win. That's the only playoff win in 5 years for Zim, and that's only the 2nd for St. Ricky in 13 years. Do truly "great" rosters post such anemic playoff records? Certainly not by my definition of "great".
If the Vikings TRULY have such a great roster, then the coaching the past few years has been historically awful. Why do I say that? Because there have been a lot of pretty mediocre/average coaches that have WON a SB (Billick, Gruden, Harbaugh, Switzer, Kubiak, McCarthy, Dungy , just off the top of my head) and a WHOLE bunch of mediocre HC's that at least MADE a SB (Ross, Fassel, Harbaugh, Rivera, Quinn, Fisher, Smith, Callahan, Whisenhunt, Fox ) Not all of THOSE teams had the "best" roster, but still managed sustained playoff success, for one post-season, that is.
I've also heard how great the coaching staff is, and I have to ask myself, "Self, how can this be?". The answer : It CAN"T be. Either the roster is over-rated, or the coaching is over-rated. They both can't be "great" and post such shit-ass playoff numbers. Not possible. I think it's a LOT of the former and a little of the latter, but that's JMO.
It seems to be that most fans DO agree that another "Schpielman Special" (zero playoff wins) in 2019, changes to the staff and front office will (and SHOULD) be made, but I'm not so sure about that. Ricky's ability to find scapegoats is unmatched in modern history.
The only way the Vikings do markedly better than last season is if the OL improves. The ONLY way left available to do that for the 2019 season is via the draft. I would hope that even the most ardent Spielman-ite would acknowledge that there is VERY little evidence to support that this will occur. 1 or 2 quality, day 1 starting OL rookies? Yikes. I'm afraid I'll have to witness THAT miracle before I believe it. Call me Thomas or MissouriVike.
Peace and Happy Easter to all.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"Wetlander" said:
@"Amazonviking" said:
Lets say he goes Oline and misses on the 1st round pick only to have a stud DT who was rated much higher get taken right after we draft the 4th rated linemen? We end up missing the playoffs because our DT's suck and teams run up the gut on us and keep Cousin's off the field.
I think you have to balance need and BPA. I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying that 4th rated linemen is going to comp much lower that the 4th rated DT.
The best teams, trust their boards in the draft and use free agency to fill need.
I guess I don't know why some fans think our DTs are going to suck because we lost Sheldon Richardson. In my opinion, our run defense was MUCH better in 2017 with Linval and Shamar Stephen on early downs and Tom Johnson subbing in on obvious passing downs. Neither of those guys have the pure talent that Sheldon does, but collectively they were better for our defense.
The beauty of this draft and where the Vikings are picking... that 4th rated OL might be the #1 rated interior OL in the draft pool. You could argue that would be the better pick in terms of BPA compared to taking the 4th best DT in your hypothetical above.
If the Vikings don't find a way to push the pocket in 2019 they are doing to have some issues generating consistent pressure like they did late in the 2018 season. Linval and Shamar are a good run stuffing duo but I do think part of Shamar's role will be keeping Linval fresh since his workload caught up with him last season. Jaleel Johnson is the most natural 3-tech they have on the roster but he is somewhat unproven and could be the rotational piece if they add an impact rookie.
Late in the 2018 season teams started to leave their QB shallow in the pocket since they could cut down on the rush arc and prevent the DE's from getting too deep. The Vikings couldn't get the push to stop it. In 2019 Sheldon took that out of the equation and the DE's benefited tremendously. Heck, I think we may have an entirely different opinion on Weatherly without Sheldon in the middle last season.
Especially with teams spreading out the field so much, interior pressure is the fastest way to the QB. Who do you think would be good fits that could generate quick pressure up the middle like Richardson did? I know that you mentioned Simmons in a previous mock, but with both Spielman and Zimmer having their jobs on the line, I think they would need to find someone who can make a more immediate impact. Also, is there any reason to believe that Jalyn Holmes could step up and provide interior pass rush or is he too much of a tweener?
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