Quote: @"Magnus10" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"Wetlander" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
I think that people are being overly critical of the draft class and roster as a whole. But what else is there to talk about when there is still about 2 months until camp opens.
The Hughes pick makes sense and I really do think he is going to get on the field sooner than a lot of people think. He is too much of a quick twitch athlete to keep off the field if he understands his role as slot CB in Zimmer's D. Its a tough job to learn but he was able to come into college and learn an entire defensive playbook in two weeks so there is some hope. That also opens up the ability for Mac to rotate outside where he's proven to be less of a reliability. Add in kick and punt return duties and he'll have some sort of an impact.
A lot of people are selling O'Neill short. He'll need to add weight but he is talented enough technically to play if needed. At the end of the day the Vikings lack one offensive line starter but have a tremendous amount of depth. At this point if they can't find a combination of five O-lineman that work well together its on Sparano and the coaching staff.
From the 3rd onward's Holmes should be a part of a rotation and Conklin has a chance. Carlson is almost a given producer since there really isn't going to be a competition with Kai. They want his leg for kickoff's and if he shows the same level of accuracy he did at Auburn the competition is over before it even started.
Oh, and they're getting Dalvin Cook back who gave D-coordinators absolute nightmares when he was healthy last year. Multiple NFL coaches firmly believe he would have been the ROY last season if he stayed healthy. Before his injury he was on pace for over 2,000 all-purpose yards. If you really kept him in-line with his pace he would have led the NFL in yards from scrimmage.
Great insights, Geoff. I think this draft class was going to get panned by most fans and media no matter what... the Vikings roster is loaded right now and there aren't many starting spots up for grabs. RG/RT will be one spot to watch this offseason, but if everyone looks objectively at our roster, it's loaded with talented guys at almost every position. And now the Vikings just added a bunch of guys with good upside as depth behind our starters... I'm having a hard time understanding how some see that as a bad thing?
BECAUSE WE SPENT $84M ON A QUARTERBACK AND HE IS GOING TO DIE WITHOUT A RIGHT GUARD. That is why Wet. :p
I still believe that Keenum's pocket presence, ability to feel pressure and escape, and scrambling masked many problems and inconsistencies with the OLine all season, especially when we had to reshuffle the line due to injuries at the end of the year.
Cousins does not appear to have the same escapability skills as Keenum, thus the frustration with not taking a plug and play RG/RT with the first round pick. I also hope that Hill does not end up as the starter at RT, he will get Cousins destroyed. I think he belongs as a backup swing tackle.
I am not totally comfortable that a 5th round pick (Isadora), someone signed off the Eagles practice squad (Andrews), or a low level FA (Compton) will be a solid starter at RG. And yes we should be focused on protecting and maximizing the 84M GUARANTEED investment in Cousins.
another thing about QBs that move a lot is they sometimes create more problems for their blockers. now Case was pretty much houdini at times, but there were times that he moved around more than necessary and ran into issues as his protection cant see him sliding and what not. sometimes 1 step would have done the job and 3 steps created a shit storm.
Quote: @"Norse" said:
What I find somewhat confusing is, many say the offensive line was improved and good last year.
But a lot of our linemen had some of their worse ratings in their careers.
How does that work =)
Disappointed in our first round pick this year. The person we picked was ok...just no in the first round.
You need to grade the offensive line as a unit. Look at how they performed before Easton and Elflein got hurt...
I believe Dalvin Cook was 2nd in the league in total yards (behind Kareem Hunt) and Bradford/Keenum were the least sacked QBs.
The offensive line can be upgraded, but I don't think it's as bad as some fans want to make it. Let's not forget that RG is the easiest position to find a solid starter along the entire offensive line. I think we'll be just fine as long as we can keep out starters healthy most of the season.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
I think that people are being overly critical of the draft class and roster as a whole. But what else is there to talk about when there is still about 2 months until camp opens.
The Hughes pick makes sense and I really do think he is going to get on the field sooner than a lot of people think. He is too much of a quick twitch athlete to keep off the field if he understands his role as slot CB in Zimmer's D. Its a tough job to learn but he was able to come into college and learn an entire defensive playbook in two weeks so there is some hope. That also opens up the ability for Mac to rotate outside where he's proven to be less of a reliability. Add in kick and punt return duties and he'll have some sort of an impact.
A lot of people are selling O'Neill short. He'll need to add weight but he is talented enough technically to play if needed. At the end of the day the Vikings lack one offensive line starter but have a tremendous amount of depth. At this point if they can't find a combination of five O-lineman that work well together its on Sparano and the coaching staff.
From the 3rd onward's Holmes should be a part of a rotation and Conklin has a chance. Carlson is almost a given producer since there really isn't going to be a competition with Kai. They want his leg for kickoff's and if he shows the same level of accuracy he did at Auburn the competition is over before it even started.
Oh, and they're getting Dalvin Cook back who gave D-coordinators absolute nightmares when he was healthy last year. Multiple NFL coaches firmly believe he would have been the ROY last season if he stayed healthy. Before his injury he was on pace for over 2,000 all-purpose yards. If you really kept him in-line with his pace he would have led the NFL in yards from scrimmage.
we also added a franchise QB the “most coveted” in a decade and one of the top two or three defensive FAs of the year as well.
i say we go 8-8 or 7-9. lol
Quote: @"Wetlander" said:
@"Norse" said:
What I find somewhat confusing is, many say the offensive line was improved and good last year.
But a lot of our linemen had some of their worse ratings in their careers.
How does that work =)
Disappointed in our first round pick this year. The person we picked was ok...just no in the first round.
You need to grade the offensive line as a unit. Look at how they performed before Easton and Elflein got hurt...
I believe Dalvin Cook was 2nd in the league in total yards (behind Kareem Hunt) and Bradford/Keenum were the least sacked QBs.
The offensive line can be upgraded, but I don't think it's as bad as some fans want to make it. Let's not forget that RG is the easiest position to find a solid starter along the entire offensive line. I think we'll be just fine as long as we can keep out starters healthy most of the season.
As a unit they graded out to average and sacks total was more of a function of Keenums ability to feel and respond to pressure while extending plays with his legs.
It will be interesting to see how well Cousins can do behind this group especially with the question marks at the right side and two returning starters coming off broken ankles. I wonder if he will be able to get to his third read before he has to unload it.
Quote: @"Magnus10" said
I still believe that Keenum's pocket presence, ability to feel pressure and escape, and scrambling masked many problems and inconsistencies with the OLine all season, especially when we had to reshuffle the line due to injuries at the end of the year.
Cousins does not appear to have the same escapability skills as Keenum, thus the frustration with not taking a plug and play RG/RT with the first round pick. I also hope that Hill does not end up as the starter at RT, he will get Cousins destroyed. I think he belongs as a backup swing tackle.
I am not totally comfortable that a 5th round pick (Isadora), someone signed off the Eagles practice squad (Andrews), or a low level FA (Compton) will be a solid starter at RG. And yes we should be focused on protecting and maximizing the 84M GUARANTEED investment in Cousins.
Case did/does have an uncanny sense in the pocket, plus he had balls and was willing to make a pass and take a hit. I do think at times he did run himself into pressure, but I’m not here to complain about Case. The Vikings made the call and spent big money for Cousins over Case. They must think that is an upgrade.
It is way too early to tell whether we have upgraded over Berger. For now, I’m giving the Vikings’ coaches and GM the benefit of the doubt. We will have a great competition for the 5th OL spot. Some of these guys are young and are expected to develop. And didn’t Compton start for Atlanta in the SB? Atlanta had a great offense that season and Matt Ryan is not the most mobile QB. It’s not like the Vikings were unaware of their OL situation during the draft.
No team is perfect, and we do have some significant changes on offense from last season. But there aren’t many teams with a better roster than the Vikings have right now. We were close last year. I’m expecting another good season.
Quote: @"JimmyinSD" said:
@"Magnus10" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"Wetlander" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
I think that people are being overly critical of the draft class and roster as a whole. But what else is there to talk about when there is still about 2 months until camp opens.
The Hughes pick makes sense and I really do think he is going to get on the field sooner than a lot of people think. He is too much of a quick twitch athlete to keep off the field if he understands his role as slot CB in Zimmer's D. Its a tough job to learn but he was able to come into college and learn an entire defensive playbook in two weeks so there is some hope. That also opens up the ability for Mac to rotate outside where he's proven to be less of a reliability. Add in kick and punt return duties and he'll have some sort of an impact.
A lot of people are selling O'Neill short. He'll need to add weight but he is talented enough technically to play if needed. At the end of the day the Vikings lack one offensive line starter but have a tremendous amount of depth. At this point if they can't find a combination of five O-lineman that work well together its on Sparano and the coaching staff.
From the 3rd onward's Holmes should be a part of a rotation and Conklin has a chance. Carlson is almost a given producer since there really isn't going to be a competition with Kai. They want his leg for kickoff's and if he shows the same level of accuracy he did at Auburn the competition is over before it even started.
Oh, and they're getting Dalvin Cook back who gave D-coordinators absolute nightmares when he was healthy last year. Multiple NFL coaches firmly believe he would have been the ROY last season if he stayed healthy. Before his injury he was on pace for over 2,000 all-purpose yards. If you really kept him in-line with his pace he would have led the NFL in yards from scrimmage.
Great insights, Geoff. I think this draft class was going to get panned by most fans and media no matter what... the Vikings roster is loaded right now and there aren't many starting spots up for grabs. RG/RT will be one spot to watch this offseason, but if everyone looks objectively at our roster, it's loaded with talented guys at almost every position. And now the Vikings just added a bunch of guys with good upside as depth behind our starters... I'm having a hard time understanding how some see that as a bad thing?
BECAUSE WE SPENT $84M ON A QUARTERBACK AND HE IS GOING TO DIE WITHOUT A RIGHT GUARD. That is why Wet. :p
I still believe that Keenum's pocket presence, ability to feel pressure and escape, and scrambling masked many problems and inconsistencies with the OLine all season, especially when we had to reshuffle the line due to injuries at the end of the year.
Cousins does not appear to have the same escapability skills as Keenum, thus the frustration with not taking a plug and play RG/RT with the first round pick. I also hope that Hill does not end up as the starter at RT, he will get Cousins destroyed. I think he belongs as a backup swing tackle.
I am not totally comfortable that a 5th round pick (Isadora), someone signed off the Eagles practice squad (Andrews), or a low level FA (Compton) will be a solid starter at RG. And yes we should be focused on protecting and maximizing the 84M GUARANTEED investment in Cousins.
another thing about QBs that move a lot is they sometimes create more problems for their blockers. now Case was pretty much houdini at times, but there were times that he moved around more than necessary and ran into issues as his protection cant see him sliding and what not. sometimes 1 step would have done the job and 3 steps created a shit storm.
This is part of the reason I believe the Seahawks don't invest heavily in their offensive line. They have the QB in Wilson but half the time when he breaks the play off and scrambles it doesn't matter if you have a top tier LT or mid-round rookie. Would Wilson be better working in the pocket? Hard to say since we don't have an adequate sample size. But why heavily invest in an area that may or may not make the team better.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"Magnus10" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"Wetlander" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
I think that people are being overly critical of the draft class and roster as a whole. But what else is there to talk about when there is still about 2 months until camp opens.
The Hughes pick makes sense and I really do think he is going to get on the field sooner than a lot of people think. He is too much of a quick twitch athlete to keep off the field if he understands his role as slot CB in Zimmer's D. Its a tough job to learn but he was able to come into college and learn an entire defensive playbook in two weeks so there is some hope. That also opens up the ability for Mac to rotate outside where he's proven to be less of a reliability. Add in kick and punt return duties and he'll have some sort of an impact.
A lot of people are selling O'Neill short. He'll need to add weight but he is talented enough technically to play if needed. At the end of the day the Vikings lack one offensive line starter but have a tremendous amount of depth. At this point if they can't find a combination of five O-lineman that work well together its on Sparano and the coaching staff.
From the 3rd onward's Holmes should be a part of a rotation and Conklin has a chance. Carlson is almost a given producer since there really isn't going to be a competition with Kai. They want his leg for kickoff's and if he shows the same level of accuracy he did at Auburn the competition is over before it even started.
Oh, and they're getting Dalvin Cook back who gave D-coordinators absolute nightmares when he was healthy last year. Multiple NFL coaches firmly believe he would have been the ROY last season if he stayed healthy. Before his injury he was on pace for over 2,000 all-purpose yards. If you really kept him in-line with his pace he would have led the NFL in yards from scrimmage.
Great insights, Geoff. I think this draft class was going to get panned by most fans and media no matter what... the Vikings roster is loaded right now and there aren't many starting spots up for grabs. RG/RT will be one spot to watch this offseason, but if everyone looks objectively at our roster, it's loaded with talented guys at almost every position. And now the Vikings just added a bunch of guys with good upside as depth behind our starters... I'm having a hard time understanding how some see that as a bad thing?
BECAUSE WE SPENT $84M ON A QUARTERBACK AND HE IS GOING TO DIE WITHOUT A RIGHT GUARD. That is why Wet. :p
I still believe that Keenum's pocket presence, ability to feel pressure and escape, and scrambling masked many problems and inconsistencies with the OLine all season, especially when we had to reshuffle the line due to injuries at the end of the year.
Cousins does not appear to have the same escapability skills as Keenum, thus the frustration with not taking a plug and play RG/RT with the first round pick. I also hope that Hill does not end up as the starter at RT, he will get Cousins destroyed. I think he belongs as a backup swing tackle.
I am not totally comfortable that a 5th round pick (Isadora), someone signed off the Eagles practice squad (Andrews), or a low level FA (Compton) will be a solid starter at RG. And yes we should be focused on protecting and maximizing the 84M GUARANTEED investment in Cousins.
another thing about QBs that move a lot is they sometimes create more problems for their blockers. now Case was pretty much houdini at times, but there were times that he moved around more than necessary and ran into issues as his protection cant see him sliding and what not. sometimes 1 step would have done the job and 3 steps created a shit storm.
This is part of the reason I believe the Seahawks don't invest heavily in their offensive line. They have the QB in Wilson but half the time when he breaks the play off and scrambles it doesn't matter if you have a top tier LT or mid-round rookie. Would Wilson be better working in the pocket? Hard to say since we don't have an adequate sample size. But why heavily invest in an area that may or may not make the team better.
I say this with the caveat that there are not similarities between Cousins and Wilson's pocket presence. But the idea you need to have this O-line that can handle business in Armageddon is a reach.
Quote: @"Norse" said:
What I find somewhat confusing is, many say the offensive line was improved and good last year.
But a lot of our linemen had some of their worse ratings in their careers.
How does that work =)
Disappointed in our first round pick this year. The person we picked was ok...just no in the first round.
Ratings by whom? PFF? Perphaps the change in scheme wasn't recognized by those doing the rating? Or perhaps PFF just doesn't do well rating linemen.
While it may not BE worse, I think it's very possible that our line may LOOK a little worse next year.
Here's what I mean....Cousins is plenty mobile, but he's not as elusive as Keenum was. He'll probably take a few more sacks. Also, Cousins will throw the ball deep simply because he has the arm to do it. That means more 7-step drops and the need for the OL to hold their blocks longer. The good thing is that it also means that DBs will have to play the entire field. As a corner and safety, I remember loving when I played a crap-arm QB. There were parts of the field I knew I didn't have to bother with. That won't be true with Cousins.
As they were for Sam Bradford weak one, Dalvin Cook, play action, and movement are going to be Cousins' best friends. I think Flip is going to design an offense that uses all of them (plus some RPO) to help mitigate whatever protection problems arise. It might also spell an earlier entry into the starting lineup for a guy like O'Neill.
Keep in mind also...
Kirk Cousins – Cousins leads all quarterbacks within our sample in play-action passer rating. Luckily for him, Minnesota ranked second among all teams in play-action pass attempts last year, and by 35 more than the Washington Redskins, who ranked 18th. Minnesota does have a new offensive coordinator this year (John DeFilippo), who may be less aggressive in calling play-action passes than Pat Shurmur. In DeFilippo’s last year as offensive coordinator (2015 with the Browns), his team ranked 24th in play-action passes. However, perhaps he opts for a more play-action-heavy approach next season to account for Cousins’ strengths. If this is the case Cousins might be in a better situation than he was in Washington. As we mentioned earlier, team rushing attempts has a positive correlation to play-action passer rating, and Minnesota ranked second in team rushing attempts last year, while Washington ranked 22nd. -PFF
So despite the fact that Cook was out for the majority of the season, the Vikings were still able to use the play action pass effectively all year. Put him back on the team with the league's best play action passer and good things will happen.
Quote: @"MaroonBells" said:
While it may not BE worse, I think it's very possible that our line may LOOK a little worse next year.
Here's what I mean....Cousins is plenty mobile, but he's not as elusive as Keenum was. He'll probably take a few more sacks. Also, Cousins will throw the ball deep simply because he has the arm to do it. That means more 7-step drops and the need for the OL to hold their blocks longer. The good thing is that it also means that DBs will have to play the entire field. As a corner and safety, I remember loving when I played a crap-arm QB. There were parts of the field I knew I didn't have to bother with. That won't be true with Cousins.
As they were for Sam Bradford weak one, Dalvin Cook, play action, and movement are going to be Cousins' best friends. I think Flip is going to design an offense that uses all of them (plus some RPO) to help mitigate whatever protection problems arise. It might also spell an earlier entry into the starting lineup for a guy like O'Neill.
Keep in mind also...
Kirk Cousins – Cousins leads all quarterbacks within our sample in play-action passer rating. Luckily for him, Minnesota ranked second among all teams in play-action pass attempts last year, and by 35 more than the Washington Redskins, who ranked 18th. Minnesota does have a new offensive coordinator this year (John DeFilippo), who may be less aggressive in calling play-action passes than Pat Shurmur. In DeFilippo’s last year as offensive coordinator (2015 with the Browns), his team ranked 24th in play-action passes. However, perhaps he opts for a more play-action-heavy approach next season to account for Cousins’ strengths. If this is the case Cousins might be in a better situation than he was in Washington. As we mentioned earlier, team rushing attempts has a positive correlation to play-action passer rating, and Minnesota ranked second in team rushing attempts last year, while Washington ranked 22nd. -PFF
So despite the fact that Cook was out for the majority of the season, the Vikings were still able to use the play action pass effectively all year. Put him back on the team with the league's best play action passer and good things will happen.
A few points for discussion:
- I agree that Kirk is plenty mobile and will pick up some yards on the ground from time to time. But from a pocket presence point of view he isn't going to be rolling out and making plays unless the play design is moving the pocket for him. It's not so much about being elusive, but my biggest takeaway from watching his WAS tape was can he make plays when the play falls apart? There isn't an answer yet. Case was incredible at making something out of nothing. In those same moments Kirk tends to try to do too much. That is where a majority of the sack fumbles come from to be honest. Hopefully a stronger supporting cast comes into play there.
- I'm very intrigued to see how DeFilippo uses play action. The issue with play action and moving the quarterback is that you take away a portion of the field that is otherwise in play. Extreme example but if you roll Kirk to the right you already know he won't be throwing it down the weak side boundary. It works with Case because that's not a throw he's typically taking so you aren't giving it up. I think we're all going to be surprised how much RPO action we include at the expense of PA. Although RPO's have been around for years the concept fits Cousins so well. It makes the LB's and D-line hesitate without giving up a portion of the field.
- Weird stat but as the league has become a more pass driven league PA hasn't helped or hurt QB's and RB's. So although it's counter intuitive there isn't correlation between a strong running game and PA passing. The opposite is also true.
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