Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ Tom Moore said:
Teddy is a wonderful person. Now, with that said, what game do you point to in his career that makes you say, "man, that is a franchise QB and he really lit them up"? To me, he is a game manager. A guy who was a high pick out of college, and has been a QB since age 9, should not need 5 years to learn how to throw an accurate deep ball.
Problem is, everyone keeps saying Case is not the guy....yet he produced 13 wins. Drew Brees sucked in San Diego for a few years, and then the lights came on. Maybe they did for Case. Yes, he takes unnecessary risks and had 10 INTs (3 in the playoffs), but few were his fault. To be fair, there were a few other dropped INTs that he very well could have made his stats look worse. But, he is the gunslinger we want. Teddy doesn't take those chances.
And, Sam. He is my pick, were it not for the injury concerns. By far the most accurate, but the least mobile.
I think Case deserves to start in this league. I think Sam deserves to start in this league. And I think Teddy was the best QB we had had in Minnesota since Favre was here, until Sam came and Case emerged.
Biggest fear is like StickyBun - just don't screw it up. If we pick Teddy, and he flames out, and the other 1 or 2 do well, it's starting from scratch again. I'm sick of retread QBs.
If it were me, I'd franchise Case, and sign Sam for $12M more. We have the money, and I don't see anyone paying Sam more than $12m a year to start due to the injury concerns.
Few Ints were Case's fault? Seriously? I suppose the Pick 6 he threw into triple coverage wasn't his fault because his arm got tipped. Otherwise it would have magically passed through all the Defenders.
And how many times did he throw up a floater that Diggs or Thielen bailed him out on? How many times did he hit DBs right in the damn hands and they dropped it?
It's great that Minnesota has two WRs capable of being in the Top 10 in contested catches. It's not great that Keenum doesn't have the arm to hit them when they're open and has to rely on their ball skills to bail him out.
Case gets a little bit of credit from me because he actually was willing to throw into coverage at times to let his receivers make a play. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. When you have good playmakers that can end up bailing you out of a lot of shitty decisions. But sometimes the decisions you make are very shitty. You do not EVER throw a ball up for grabs against the Saints when you're winning by 14 points. That Marcus Williams pick let them back into the game. Same thing could be said in the Redskins game. You're up by what, 14+ points? Then you give up a near pick-6 to let them back into the game.
Ultimately, it's who Case is. He is a gambler. He'll make some throws others QB's won't and make out ok. But he also will also miss wide open receivers to huge plays as well from time to time. The question with Case is not whether he can repeat what he did in 2017. It's if his massive jump in production is due to the weapons he was surrounded with. If its the latter you immediately become more confident in an external option or Bridgewater + veteran over paying Case $23M on the tag.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ Tom Moore said:
Teddy is a wonderful person. Now, with that said, what game do you point to in his career that makes you say, "man, that is a franchise QB and he really lit them up"? To me, he is a game manager. A guy who was a high pick out of college, and has been a QB since age 9, should not need 5 years to learn how to throw an accurate deep ball.
Problem is, everyone keeps saying Case is not the guy....yet he produced 13 wins. Drew Brees sucked in San Diego for a few years, and then the lights came on. Maybe they did for Case. Yes, he takes unnecessary risks and had 10 INTs (3 in the playoffs), but few were his fault. To be fair, there were a few other dropped INTs that he very well could have made his stats look worse. But, he is the gunslinger we want. Teddy doesn't take those chances.
And, Sam. He is my pick, were it not for the injury concerns. By far the most accurate, but the least mobile.
I think Case deserves to start in this league. I think Sam deserves to start in this league. And I think Teddy was the best QB we had had in Minnesota since Favre was here, until Sam came and Case emerged.
Biggest fear is like StickyBun - just don't screw it up. If we pick Teddy, and he flames out, and the other 1 or 2 do well, it's starting from scratch again. I'm sick of retread QBs.
If it were me, I'd franchise Case, and sign Sam for $12M more. We have the money, and I don't see anyone paying Sam more than $12m a year to start due to the injury concerns.
Few Ints were Case's fault? Seriously? I suppose the Pick 6 he threw into triple coverage wasn't his fault because his arm got tipped. Otherwise it would have magically passed through all the Defenders.
And how many times did he throw up a floater that Diggs or Thielen bailed him out on? How many times did he hit DBs right in the damn hands and they dropped it?
It's great that Minnesota has two WRs capable of being in the Top 10 in contested catches. It's not great that Keenum doesn't have the arm to hit them when they're open and has to rely on their ball skills to bail him out. The question with Case is not whether he can repeat what he did in 2017. It's if his massive jump in production is due to the weapons he was surrounded with. If its the latter you immediately become more confident in an external option or Bridgewater + veteran over paying Case $23M on the tag.
And so let's put ourselves in RS, new OC and Zimm's shoes...You go back over all of Cases tape and then --- how much of your final lens on him is determined by hard, fact based metric vs art and gut feel?
Ultimately, if Minnesota goes with one of the three currently, which it definitely appears they will, there will be risk involved. IMO, I look at the upside....who's got it? I guess it depends how you view it. My gut tells me that I just don't see a great upside with Teddy....but maybe in Turner's offense behind that line, he never got the chance. Maybe as a fan, I've got a blind spot there on Bridgewater.
I think part of the problem is Bradford is SO impressive throwing the football, such great and accurate arm talent, that its tough from a coaching standpoint to not gravitate toward that. I don't think its a coincidence that both Sam and Case had excellent years in Minnesota....its about the talent and scheme around you, too.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
And so let's put ourselves in RS, new OC and Zimm's shoes...You go back over all of Cases tape and then --- how much of your final lens on him is determined by hard, fact based metric vs art and gut feel?
Football is not a sport that metrics and hard facts have
figured out yet. You will not build a
winning team by only looking at facts.
If facts had significant value people would be much better at predicting
the outcomes of seasons. What’s really
important is the facts + context, but the context is constantly changing as
players get injured, you play against different teams, and as rosters and
coaching staffs churn. You combine that
with the fact that there’s so few data points in any given season.
Even if you try to look at each of our QBs over the last 3
seasons, the context is so incredibly different that the comparisons you can
make by looking at just the numbers are almost worthless. I’m sure their internal grading system is
more accurate, because at least they can grade them based on what they were
supposed to do compared against what they actually did and they can see them in
practice which is a black box for us. I
think there’s going to be a lot of “art” when it comes to looking at Bradford
and Bridgewater’s knees. I’m sure they
look great in practice, when there’s no pressure on them, but how will they
look in the game or how will they look in 6-7 months when next year is starting
to round into form.
It’s really too bad that Zimmer didn’t put at least
Bridgewater into the games a little bit earlier. Even if it was just the Bengals game, he was
way too conservative in that regard.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ Tom Moore said:
Teddy is a wonderful person. Now, with that said, what game do you point to in his career that makes you say, "man, that is a franchise QB and he really lit them up"? To me, he is a game manager. A guy who was a high pick out of college, and has been a QB since age 9, should not need 5 years to learn how to throw an accurate deep ball.
Problem is, everyone keeps saying Case is not the guy....yet he produced 13 wins. Drew Brees sucked in San Diego for a few years, and then the lights came on. Maybe they did for Case. Yes, he takes unnecessary risks and had 10 INTs (3 in the playoffs), but few were his fault. To be fair, there were a few other dropped INTs that he very well could have made his stats look worse. But, he is the gunslinger we want. Teddy doesn't take those chances.
And, Sam. He is my pick, were it not for the injury concerns. By far the most accurate, but the least mobile.
I think Case deserves to start in this league. I think Sam deserves to start in this league. And I think Teddy was the best QB we had had in Minnesota since Favre was here, until Sam came and Case emerged.
Biggest fear is like StickyBun - just don't screw it up. If we pick Teddy, and he flames out, and the other 1 or 2 do well, it's starting from scratch again. I'm sick of retread QBs.
If it were me, I'd franchise Case, and sign Sam for $12M more. We have the money, and I don't see anyone paying Sam more than $12m a year to start due to the injury concerns.
Few Ints were Case's fault? Seriously? I suppose the Pick 6 he threw into triple coverage wasn't his fault because his arm got tipped. Otherwise it would have magically passed through all the Defenders.
And how many times did he throw up a floater that Diggs or Thielen bailed him out on? How many times did he hit DBs right in the damn hands and they dropped it?
It's great that Minnesota has two WRs capable of being in the Top 10 in contested catches. It's not great that Keenum doesn't have the arm to hit them when they're open and has to rely on their ball skills to bail him out. The question with Case is not whether he can repeat what he did in 2017. It's if his massive jump in production is due to the weapons he was surrounded with. If its the latter you immediately become more confident in an external option or Bridgewater + veteran over paying Case $23M on the tag.
And so let's put ourselves in RS, new OC and Zimm's shoes...You go back over all of Cases tape and then --- how much of your final lens on him is determined by hard, fact based metric vs art and gut feel?
It'll probably be a bit different for everyone. But the tape doesn't lie and they'll look over it carefully. I am interested in their takeaways to be honest. Case did a really nice job at times but also had these weird instances of inconsistency. You need to figure out what sparked that and how he got back on track.
Stats never tell the full story but you also need to figure out the gap in Keenum's performances when leading and trailing in games. The splits are:
When leading - 70% comp / 1,907 yd / 13 TD / 5 INT / YA 7.7
When trailing - 63% comp / 2,229 yd / 11 TD / 5 INT / YA 6.9
Most quarterbacks don't have better stats when they're trailing since defenses can pin their ears back and get after the QB. But the drop in completion percentage is whats worrisome. That 63% is also oddly similar to his career completion % a smidgen over 60%. Gut feeling is that somewhat proves the team was carrying Case more than Case was carrying the team.
Why does Teddy’s Bengals performance get a pass?
Did he look comfortable? Did it look like he had improved? Did he look like a starter?
For me the answer is no for all those questions. Teddy was handed the keys to this team due to the lack of QB talent at the time... Today the Vikings have QB talent, one traded for and one emerged to play his best ball yet. Nobody can say that they knew Case would preform the way he did... well maybe his mom... but I digress. IF Teddy could be “the guy”, that would be the best thing for this org. BUT....
Will Teddy still trust his legs when a play breaks down? Did he lose a step due to the injury? Was the injury genetics? Can Teddy come back mentally from such an injury? Having your leg fall off while doing “normal” walk thru type things.. cannot be a comfort when you are going to have 300+ lb people trying to take you down.
Sam could have the same questions, except his game was never a “running/scramble” QB. His game was arm and accuracy.
Case just put up his best season. He loves it here... might play into taking less money, doubt it, but it might. BUT... how much of his success was OC related. Will a new OC mean a less successful Case?
Rick gets A TON of credit on this site, for a GM who hasn’t got the QB position right yet.... this will be the decision that either erases all those struggling years or adds to them.
I’m not getting any younger.... I hope he gets it right.
Based on what I've been reading the last couple of days, it sounds like tolling Teddy's contract may actually be a possibility. Up until now, I'd heard basically that "the Vikings won't toll Teddy's contract." Well, it sounds like the Vikings aren't even part of that decision. Yes, the Vikings at any time could give Bridgewater a contract extension, but the decision on whether or not the contract will toll for another year is up to the NFL, not the Vikings. At the core of the fight will be about Bridgewater's medical records and if he could have played prior to his removal from the PUP.
And so the fight, if there is one, is between the NFL and Teddy's side (with a likely assist from the NFLPA). If I'm interpreting this correctly (and I may not be), it removes the Vikings from what could be an ugly legal fight with Team Teddy. Anyone see it differently?
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
Based on what I've been reading the last couple of days, it sounds like tolling Teddy's contract may actually be a possibility. Up until now, I'd heard basically that "the Vikings won't toll Teddy's contract." Well, it sounds like the Vikings aren't even part of that decision. Yes, the Vikings at any time could give Bridgewater a contract extension, but the decision on whether or not the contract will toll for another year is up to the NFL, not the Vikings. At the core of the fight will be about Bridgewater's medical records and if he could have played prior to his removal from the PUP.
And so the fight, if there is one, is between the NFL and Teddy's side (with a likely assist from the NFLPA). If I'm interpreting this correctly (and I may not be), it removes the Vikings from what could be an ugly legal fight with Team Teddy. Anyone see it differently?
That was a new revelation yesterday for me as well. makes sense, why would the league want 1 team setting a precedence on an issue that could be even bigger in the future. however this is not going to benefit the Vikings in this situation as they will need to be making a move soon on their choice at QB, not waiting months for a legal decision to be handed down. this is really bull shit for Teddy, this matter should have been addressed and argued as soon as he was a tolling candidate IMO.
teddy bridgewater - running scrambling QB? where do these takes come from. if anything Teddy was too comfy in pocket and coildve taken advantage of more runs.
now Case that is a scrambling qb, hence his best stat came outside the pocket. teddy may have decent stats outside the pocket too, but he tried staying in the pocket almsot to a fault
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Based on what I've been reading the last couple of days, it sounds like tolling Teddy's contract may actually be a possibility. Up until now, I'd heard basically that "the Vikings won't toll Teddy's contract." Well, it sounds like the Vikings aren't even part of that decision. Yes, the Vikings at any time could give Bridgewater a contract extension, but the decision on whether or not the contract will toll for another year is up to the NFL, not the Vikings. At the core of the fight will be about Bridgewater's medical records and if he could have played prior to his removal from the PUP.
And so the fight, if there is one, is between the NFL and Teddy's side (with a likely assist from the NFLPA). If I'm interpreting this correctly (and I may not be), it removes the Vikings from what could be an ugly legal fight with Team Teddy. Anyone see it differently?
That was a new revelation yesterday for me as well. makes sense, why would the league want 1 team setting a precedence on an issue that could be even bigger in the future. however this is not going to benefit the Vikings in this situation as they will need to be making a move soon on their choice at QB, not waiting months for a legal decision to be handed down. this is really bull shit for Teddy, this matter should have been addressed and argued as soon as he was a tolling candidate IMO.
Agree. This could be bad for everyone. If the NFL determines that the contract must toll, then the NFLPA will challenge that and it will likely be in court well past the start of the league year. At that point, with other QB suitors jumping, the Vikings may feel the need to commit to Sam or Case, all the while just hoping that they can keep Teddy on the roster, too, at his rookie salary. If the NFLPA wins, then Teddy becomes a free agent, but at what cost? If that decision doesn't come for weeks or months, will the rest of the NFL already have their QBs?
In either case, it sounds like what will be THE most important decision for the future of this franchise is now complicated even further.
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