Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ JR44 said:
@ mblack said:
So does this count as a plus to KAM and KOC then? #AskingForAFriend :p
If they are such great talent evaluators and saw something someone else didn't see why didn't they draft him? Outside of Addison he looks to the best player in our entire class, so why did we pick others ahead of him if they are so astute at talent? Once it gets to UDFAs everyone knows who the highest ranked players are and at that point it becomes a bidding war, so I believe more of the credit goes to the Wilfs at that point for providing the pool of money for the UDFAs. The Vikes use to rule UDFAs, but now all teams jump in immediately, so the PLAYER gets to choose more so than the team. Our LB core was weak and the money was good, so it made sense for Pace.
exactly, if they get credit for seeing something on a guy that they didnt waste even a 7th round pick on... how much can you really credit them? if you think you have something, you use that draft pick so you take the chance of another team outbidding you for his services. we always hear how late round picks are complete crap shoots, well an undrafted player would certainly calculate even lower so... honestly I dont even really look at the picks past the 4th or 5th round as something to hold a GM or scouts accountable for, and with the same thought, cant really credit them to much either.
So yes, while Pace had a say in where he went, it's not like the Vikings didn't scout him, target him and make him a very large offer based on their interest. The distance some of you go to to avoid giving Kwesi cwedit for ANYTHING widdowy makes me waugh out woud. But to say that Pace is a pelt on the wall for KAM is silly.
So explain to me exactly why KAM doesn't get credit for his UDFA class. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?
Not sure about ridiculous, but when the guy has a track record of UDFA finds then yes. Otherwise, its too early to bag on him and too early to give him too much credit. Because if you are going short term, there's WAY more to bag on him for. I say save the fire and brimstone and then conversely the accolades for a bit yet.
I think this whole conversation starts from the assumption that Pace was a hit. Is it still possible he ends up a miss? Yes. But undrafted or no, he's still a rookie who had more snaps, tackles, pressures, and a higher PFF grade than Lions 1st rounder Jack Campbell.
Using your logic, if Marcus Davenport ends up busting, we can remove KAM from all accountability.
I think Davenport is a very poor example to your cause. I don't know what he'll be, but for sure right now where he stand: he ain't shit.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ medaille said:
I think you have to give credit to KAM and the front office
for opening their wallet more than other teams.
That’s important for getting the best UDFA guys, even though there’s a
good chance that guy gets cut. The way I
mostly look at draft steals is that if teams knew better, he would have been
drafted earlier. Obviously getting Diggs
or Brady or Purdy late in the draft is better than not getting them, but I
think all teams screwed up in letting them go that long, but the team that
drafted them just screwed up a little bit less.
You're ignoring that you still have to mind value. Yes, you might love Stefon Diggs but if you took him in the 3rd round when you could've gotten him in the 5th is bad drafting.
if you think you have identified a stefon diggs level of player and you risk losing him because you think you could wait 2 rounds... that is bad drafting, you are talking about a top 5 receiver in the league, a guy that nets a first round draft in a trade, but you risk missing out so you can take a usual 3 or 4th round level talent risk... nah, you grab that guy in the 3rd if you are that convinced of his talent. if not, then why are you paying scouts, and why are you ranking talent by rounds? anybody with a crystal ball or time machine would take him in the first, so why would you roll the dice and wait 2 more rounds or consider it bad drafting?
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ JR44 said:
@ mblack said:
So does this count as a plus to KAM and KOC then? #AskingForAFriend :p
If they are such great talent evaluators and saw something someone else didn't see why didn't they draft him? Outside of Addison he looks to the best player in our entire class, so why did we pick others ahead of him if they are so astute at talent? Once it gets to UDFAs everyone knows who the highest ranked players are and at that point it becomes a bidding war, so I believe more of the credit goes to the Wilfs at that point for providing the pool of money for the UDFAs. The Vikes use to rule UDFAs, but now all teams jump in immediately, so the PLAYER gets to choose more so than the team. Our LB core was weak and the money was good, so it made sense for Pace.
exactly, if they get credit for seeing something on a guy that they didnt waste even a 7th round pick on... how much can you really credit them? if you think you have something, you use that draft pick so you take the chance of another team outbidding you for his services. we always hear how late round picks are complete crap shoots, well an undrafted player would certainly calculate even lower so... honestly I dont even really look at the picks past the 4th or 5th round as something to hold a GM or scouts accountable for, and with the same thought, cant really credit them to much either.
So yes, while Pace had a say in where he went, it's not like the Vikings didn't scout him, target him and make him a very large offer based on their interest. The distance some of you go to to avoid giving Kwesi cwedit for ANYTHING widdowy makes me waugh out woud.
Dude, I hear ya. But you are also a bit of a homer. I've said as much several times before. Doesn't make you bad at all, just makes you a Viking's fan. I've said KAM's legacy still has a way to go to be proven. Can't bag on the dude yet, at least not in a real way. But to say that Pace is a pelt on the wall for KAM is silly. Its a scratch off ticket that other team's lined up to get and we paid more. If anyone had a real clue he would have been drafted. But that's the Draft, incredibly chancy and you need some luck.
Don't stop being you, brother! But, like all of us, you're not always right. Cheers!
The great thing about Maroon is he is so busy trying to convince everyone that Kwesi is great, knows what he's doing, and "of course" he has a plan, that he conveniently forgets stuff. Such as, while trying to fluff Kwesi on landing Pace as an UDFA, he conveniently forgets that Pace is taking the place of that Asamoah guy who we burned a 3rd round pick on last year. The same Asamoah who Maroon swore all offseason had superstar written all over him! So he'll conveniently just move on to the next fluffing and if the shoe happens to fit, he wears it..
So don't get me wrong about MB: he's got lots of very good insight. I like his takes. But his blindspot is Viking's players overall, he's a homer. So when he errors, its on the side of homerism. But he has plenty of very solid takes that I agree with.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ JR44 said:
@ mblack said:
So does this count as a plus to KAM and KOC then? #AskingForAFriend :p
If they are such great talent evaluators and saw something someone else didn't see why didn't they draft him? Outside of Addison he looks to the best player in our entire class, so why did we pick others ahead of him if they are so astute at talent? Once it gets to UDFAs everyone knows who the highest ranked players are and at that point it becomes a bidding war, so I believe more of the credit goes to the Wilfs at that point for providing the pool of money for the UDFAs. The Vikes use to rule UDFAs, but now all teams jump in immediately, so the PLAYER gets to choose more so than the team. Our LB core was weak and the money was good, so it made sense for Pace.
exactly, if they get credit for seeing something on a guy that they didnt waste even a 7th round pick on... how much can you really credit them? if you think you have something, you use that draft pick so you take the chance of another team outbidding you for his services. we always hear how late round picks are complete crap shoots, well an undrafted player would certainly calculate even lower so... honestly I dont even really look at the picks past the 4th or 5th round as something to hold a GM or scouts accountable for, and with the same thought, cant really credit them to much either.
So yes, while Pace had a say in where he went, it's not like the Vikings didn't scout him, target him and make him a very large offer based on their interest. The distance some of you go to to avoid giving Kwesi cwedit for ANYTHING widdowy makes me waugh out woud.
Dude, I hear ya. But you are also a bit of a homer. I've said as much several times before. Doesn't make you bad at all, just makes you a Viking's fan. I've said KAM's legacy still has a way to go to be proven. Can't bag on the dude yet, at least not in a real way. But to say that Pace is a pelt on the wall for KAM is silly. Its a scratch off ticket that other team's lined up to get and we paid more. If anyone had a real clue he would have been drafted. But that's the Draft, incredibly chancy and you need some luck.
Don't stop being you, brother! But, like all of us, you're not always right. Cheers!
The great thing about Maroon is he is so busy trying to convince everyone that Kwesi is great, knows what he's doing, and "of course" he has a plan, that he conveniently forgets stuff. Such as, while trying to fluff Kwesi on landing Pace as an UDFA, he conveniently forgets that Pace is taking the place of that Asamoah guy who we burned a 3rd round pick on last year. The same Asamoah who Maroon swore all offseason had superstar written all over him! So he'll conveniently just move on to the next fluffing and if the shoe happens to fit, he wears it..
LOL. Hey, if I'm wrong about Asamoah, so the hell be it. Who cares? If I had a half-penny for every time I've been wrong about a player, I could afford a night with your sister. At least I'm objective, and not driven by an agenda of hate towards a man simply because he was not the GM I personally wanted.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ JR44 said:
@ mblack said:
So does this count as a plus to KAM and KOC then? #AskingForAFriend :p
If they are such great talent evaluators and saw something someone else didn't see why didn't they draft him? Outside of Addison he looks to the best player in our entire class, so why did we pick others ahead of him if they are so astute at talent? Once it gets to UDFAs everyone knows who the highest ranked players are and at that point it becomes a bidding war, so I believe more of the credit goes to the Wilfs at that point for providing the pool of money for the UDFAs. The Vikes use to rule UDFAs, but now all teams jump in immediately, so the PLAYER gets to choose more so than the team. Our LB core was weak and the money was good, so it made sense for Pace.
exactly, if they get credit for seeing something on a guy that they didnt waste even a 7th round pick on... how much can you really credit them? if you think you have something, you use that draft pick so you take the chance of another team outbidding you for his services. we always hear how late round picks are complete crap shoots, well an undrafted player would certainly calculate even lower so... honestly I dont even really look at the picks past the 4th or 5th round as something to hold a GM or scouts accountable for, and with the same thought, cant really credit them to much either.
So yes, while Pace had a say in where he went, it's not like the Vikings didn't scout him, target him and make him a very large offer based on their interest. The distance some of you go to to avoid giving Kwesi cwedit for ANYTHING widdowy makes me waugh out woud. But to say that Pace is a pelt on the wall for KAM is silly.
So explain to me exactly why KAM doesn't get credit for his UDFA class. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?
Not sure about ridiculous, but when the guy has a track record of UDFA finds then yes. Otherwise, its too early to bag on him and too early to give him too much credit. Because if you are going short term, there's WAY more to bag on him for. I say save the fire and brimstone and then conversely the accolades for a bit yet.
I think this whole conversation starts from the assumption that Pace was a hit. Is it still possible he ends up a miss? Yes. But undrafted or no, he's still a rookie who had more snaps, tackles, pressures, and a higher PFF grade than Lions 1st rounder Jack Campbell.
Using your logic, if Marcus Davenport ends up busting, we can remove KAM from all accountability.
I think Davenport is a very poor example to your cause. I don't know what he'll be, but for sure right now where he stand: he ain't shit.
How he plays is irrelevant to the point. But how is a pro free agent decision different than a college free agent decision, other than the amount of money? We certainly seem to have no problem giving praise or shit to GMs based on their free agents. Just curious.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ JR44 said:
@ mblack said:
So does this count as a plus to KAM and KOC then? #AskingForAFriend :p
If they are such great talent evaluators and saw something someone else didn't see why didn't they draft him? Outside of Addison he looks to the best player in our entire class, so why did we pick others ahead of him if they are so astute at talent? Once it gets to UDFAs everyone knows who the highest ranked players are and at that point it becomes a bidding war, so I believe more of the credit goes to the Wilfs at that point for providing the pool of money for the UDFAs. The Vikes use to rule UDFAs, but now all teams jump in immediately, so the PLAYER gets to choose more so than the team. Our LB core was weak and the money was good, so it made sense for Pace.
exactly, if they get credit for seeing something on a guy that they didnt waste even a 7th round pick on... how much can you really credit them? if you think you have something, you use that draft pick so you take the chance of another team outbidding you for his services. we always hear how late round picks are complete crap shoots, well an undrafted player would certainly calculate even lower so... honestly I dont even really look at the picks past the 4th or 5th round as something to hold a GM or scouts accountable for, and with the same thought, cant really credit them to much either.
So yes, while Pace had a say in where he went, it's not like the Vikings didn't scout him, target him and make him a very large offer based on their interest. The distance some of you go to to avoid giving Kwesi cwedit for ANYTHING widdowy makes me waugh out woud.
Dude, I hear ya. But you are also a bit of a homer. I've said as much several times before. Doesn't make you bad at all, just makes you a Viking's fan. I've said KAM's legacy still has a way to go to be proven. Can't bag on the dude yet, at least not in a real way. But to say that Pace is a pelt on the wall for KAM is silly. Its a scratch off ticket that other team's lined up to get and we paid more. If anyone had a real clue he would have been drafted. But that's the Draft, incredibly chancy and you need some luck.
Don't stop being you, brother! But, like all of us, you're not always right. Cheers!
The great thing about Maroon is he is so busy trying to convince everyone that Kwesi is great, knows what he's doing, and "of course" he has a plan, that he conveniently forgets stuff. Such as, while trying to fluff Kwesi on landing Pace as an UDFA, he conveniently forgets that Pace is taking the place of that Asamoah guy who we burned a 3rd round pick on last year. The same Asamoah who Maroon swore all offseason had superstar written all over him! So he'll conveniently just move on to the next fluffing and if the shoe happens to fit, he wears it..
LOL. Hey, if I'm wrong about Asamoah, so the hell be it. Who cares? If I had a half-penny for every time I've been wrong about a player, I could afford a night with your sister. At least I'm objective, and not driven by an agenda of hate towards a man simply because he was not the GM I personally wanted. Lol you're a fluffer. Everyone knows your a fluffer, but you try to mask it as being "objective" when you clearly arent. Look no further then this thread.
And I don't have a sister, but I can clearly see fluffing runs in your family so when your mom comes out from underneath my desk, I'll let her know you have something else in common. If you are interested in my brother though, let me know. Not sure you are his type, but prison does strange things to a man
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ JR44 said:
@ mblack said:
So does this count as a plus to KAM and KOC then? #AskingForAFriend :p
If they are such great talent evaluators and saw something someone else didn't see why didn't they draft him? Outside of Addison he looks to the best player in our entire class, so why did we pick others ahead of him if they are so astute at talent? Once it gets to UDFAs everyone knows who the highest ranked players are and at that point it becomes a bidding war, so I believe more of the credit goes to the Wilfs at that point for providing the pool of money for the UDFAs. The Vikes use to rule UDFAs, but now all teams jump in immediately, so the PLAYER gets to choose more so than the team. Our LB core was weak and the money was good, so it made sense for Pace.
exactly, if they get credit for seeing something on a guy that they didnt waste even a 7th round pick on... how much can you really credit them? if you think you have something, you use that draft pick so you take the chance of another team outbidding you for his services. we always hear how late round picks are complete crap shoots, well an undrafted player would certainly calculate even lower so... honestly I dont even really look at the picks past the 4th or 5th round as something to hold a GM or scouts accountable for, and with the same thought, cant really credit them to much either.
So yes, while Pace had a say in where he went, it's not like the Vikings didn't scout him, target him and make him a very large offer based on their interest. The distance some of you go to to avoid giving Kwesi cwedit for ANYTHING widdowy makes me waugh out woud.
Dude, I hear ya. But you are also a bit of a homer. I've said as much several times before. Doesn't make you bad at all, just makes you a Viking's fan. I've said KAM's legacy still has a way to go to be proven. Can't bag on the dude yet, at least not in a real way. But to say that Pace is a pelt on the wall for KAM is silly. Its a scratch off ticket that other team's lined up to get and we paid more. If anyone had a real clue he would have been drafted. But that's the Draft, incredibly chancy and you need some luck.
Don't stop being you, brother! But, like all of us, you're not always right. Cheers!
The great thing about Maroon is he is so busy trying to convince everyone that Kwesi is great, knows what he's doing, and "of course" he has a plan, that he conveniently forgets stuff. Such as, while trying to fluff Kwesi on landing Pace as an UDFA, he conveniently forgets that Pace is taking the place of that Asamoah guy who we burned a 3rd round pick on last year. The same Asamoah who Maroon swore all offseason had superstar written all over him! So he'll conveniently just move on to the next fluffing and if the shoe happens to fit, he wears it..
LOL. Hey, if I'm wrong about Asamoah, so the hell be it. Who cares? If I had a half-penny for every time I've been wrong about a player, I could afford a night with your sister. At least I'm objective, and not driven by an agenda of hate towards a man simply because he was not the GM I personally wanted. Lol you're a fluffer. Everyone knows your a fluffer, but you try to mask it as being "objective" when you clearly arent. Look no further then this thread.
And I don't have a sister, but I can clearly see fluffing runs in your family so when your mom comes out from underneath my desk, I'll let her know you have something else in common. If you are interested in my brother though, let me know. Not sure you are his type, but prison does strange things to a man
![[Image: steiner-rudolf.gif]](https://media.tenor.com/eHax6uPw_mgAAAAC/steiner-rudolf.gif)
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ medaille said:
I think you have to give credit to KAM and the front office
for opening their wallet more than other teams.
That’s important for getting the best UDFA guys, even though there’s a
good chance that guy gets cut. The way I
mostly look at draft steals is that if teams knew better, he would have been
drafted earlier. Obviously getting Diggs
or Brady or Purdy late in the draft is better than not getting them, but I
think all teams screwed up in letting them go that long, but the team that
drafted them just screwed up a little bit less.
You're ignoring that you still have to mind value. Yes, you might love Stefon Diggs but if you took him in the 3rd round when you could've gotten him in the 5th is bad drafting.
if you think you have identified a stefon diggs level of player and you risk losing him because you think you could wait 2 rounds... that is bad drafting, you are talking about a top 5 receiver in the league, a guy that nets a first round draft in a trade, but you risk missing out so you can take a usual 3 or 4th round level talent risk... nah, you grab that guy in the 3rd if you are that convinced of his talent. if not, then why are you paying scouts, and why are you ranking talent by rounds? anybody with a crystal ball or time machine would take him in the first, so why would you roll the dice and wait 2 more rounds or consider it bad drafting?
And you think any team knew that prior to the draft? Even the Vikings? So using your logic, Rick can't be credited for Diggs either. Because he clearly waited to long. That's just nuts man.
Do you know why Diggs dropped to the 5th? He was injury prone. He had season ending injuries two years in a row. He was considered a day three prospect.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JR44 said:
@ MaroonBells said:So yes, while Pace had a say in where he went, it's not like the Vikings didn't scout him, target him and make him a very large offer based on their interest. The distance some of you go to to avoid giving Kwesi cwedit for ANYTHING widdowy makes me waugh out woud.
As opposed to the distance that some go to try to present him as a combination of Bill Walsh, Ozzie Newsome, Bill Polian, David Copperfield, Mother Theresa and Gandhi =)
You can't honestly see it that way. I think reasonable people see the good and the bad and acknowledge both, no matter whether we're talking about Rick or Kwesi. I think Rick was a really good drafting GM. I've said it a hundred times. I also think he should've been fired when he was no longer communicating with the coach. I said that a hundred times too.
When I think Kwesi has made a mistake I say so, typically loudly, like the trade down value in the '22 draft, or not spending the extra 100K to bring back Shelley, who would've been nice depth for a corner-thin team. But when I think his decisions are good, like the TJH trade, the Murphy signing and shedding the team of overpriced players like Thielen, P2, Cook and Kendricks, I say that too.
Why is it so hard to just tell the TRUTH as you see it, whatever it is? And cut the juvenile agendas. It's not that fucking hard.
i said it how i saw it, what fucking agenda do i have? I had no problem when they hired the guy, i wasnt banging the table for anybody else, but I have been grossly underwhelmed with his approach to date, and to say that Pace was a anything more than luck is the one with an agenda. if they thought they were getting a starting LB from their scouting reports they wouldnt have risked him getting nabbed in the later rounds, they would have took him much earlier and thats a fact. if there is anybody with a juvenile agenda here you might start in the mirror.
Hell, the whole draft is luck. Top to bottom. College barely runs Nfl worthy offense and all the good players end up on a few teams so its harder to pick out who is who (see cine).
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