Quote: @supafreak84 said:
QB- Brett Favre, and I say this based only on his one season (2009) and it being the only time Ive EVER felt we've had an elite quarterback. Fran has all the franchise stats but Favre is universally considered the better quarterback. Culpepper is the only other option but I never felt he was on the level of Favre, even into his 40's. I have no doubt we would have won the Super Bowl in 2009 if it wasn't for the Saints essentially putting a bounty on Favre and trying to injure him. Controversial based on only two seasons in Minnesota but 2009 was the greatest ride I've ever experienced as a fan in large part due to Brett Favre..
RB- Adrian Peterson
WR- Randy Moss
WR- Cris Carter
WR- Justin Jefferson
TE- Steve Jordan
LT- Gary Zimmerman
LG- Randall McDaniel
C- Mick Tingelhoff
RG- Steve Hutchinson
RT- Ron Yary
DE- Carl Eller
DT- John Randle
DT- Alan Page
DE- Chris Doleman
LB- Matt Blair
LB- EJ Henderson
LB- Chad Greenway
CB- Carl Lee
CB- Antoine Wifield
S- Joey Browner
S- Paul Krause
I'm not going to get into kickers as that's too painful a topic. On the defensive lineman, that was incredibly rough picking just four and the strength of this football team over the years has clearly been the defensive line and we've reinvented that unit into three of the most dominant units in the history of the league from the Purple People Eaters, to that 80's unit, to the Williams Wall and Jared Allen destroying the league. Just look at the players left off; Jim Marshall, Keith Millard, Henry Thomas, Doug Martin, Kevin Williams, Pat Williams, Jared Allen, and the list goes on. Again, it brings me a lot of pain seeing this franchise transition to a 3-4 relying on tricky blitz packages and our best pass rushers dropping into coverage. Also tough leaving Harrison Smith off my list.
2 points, I think Moon was better than Favre. Favre had the defenses more worried about Peterson than Sidney Rice and Harvin. And he was only good for 1 year.
On your DT, you don't have a NT, but your point about the dominance we have had at D-line is crazy. I think Linval Joseph belongs on that list with Pat Williams.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
Hunter might not be an option as we are still figuring out what we are doing with him and his holdout this offseason and might trade him now. Unless we are talking about a young star, and I count us as having two (JJ and Darrisaw), I don't think another team would want anybody else on our roster in lew of a 1st round or high draft pick..
I think we were solidly behind Philly, Dallas, SF, and the Giants (obviously) last year in the conference. I don't think any of those teams got worse and I think a Cook-less Vikings team is much less potent. Seattle and the Lions have both gotten better. There are probably half a dozen teams in the AFC with better rosters. I just don't believe in the "competitive rebuild" model unless you already have a franchise QB in the fold and think we are wasting more years just being "good" without a real contingency plan to make us elite.
Just depends on the defense. I expect the offense to be quite a bit better going into its 2nd season. Even without Cook. The defense is the big unknown due to all the youth, the new scheme and uncertainty surrounding Hunter. But if Flores can bump that unit into the teens, then the Vikings will do well.
What's all this about Seattle? Is it just because they drafted JSN? Yeah, that trio of receivers looks scary, but is that all people pay attention to? They still have a horrible offensive line, one of the worst in the NFL. And what about Geno Smith? Has he ever put together two good years in a row?
The Lions roster has a bright future. If all those new, young faces can gel in one season, they could take the division from us. But I find it amusing that so many Viking fans who doubt the 31st ranked defense with a new DC can improve at all....sure seem convinced the 32nd ranked defense will improve with the same DC.
I've heard a lot of people "in the know" on NFL Radio picking the Seahawks to win their division this year over San Francisco. It's not just the trio of receivers, but the combination of their terrific draft class last season (bookend tackles, Kenneth Walker, Tariq Woolen) combined with what they've added this offseason and the momentum they built last season. Shane Waldren returns as their OC and that's going to go a long ways in keeping Geno Smith on track. The one glaring area of weakness I see for them is pass rusher, which is why I mentioned them as a prime destination as a trade partner if the Vikings dealt Hunter. Oh and they get Jamal Adams and Bobby Wagner back...
On the Lions, we know that offense is good and they can score, but they've actually added impact pieces to their defense that would lead you to believe they should be better. Jack Campbell, Cam Sutton, CJ Gardner-Johnson, Emanuel Mosley. The Vikings are just hoping a bunch of young, unproven guys step up and fill roles in yet another new scheme. If we trade Hunter we are in trouble..
There is no one "in the know" when it comes to predicting the season. For example, two years ago the Jets ranked dead last in defense. I doubt anyone predicted they would rank 4th last year. It's not 1975 anymore. Teams change and evolve very quickly now. In 2019, the Bucs finished 7-9. The next year they won the Super Bowl. That year, the Bengals finished 4-11, the next year they were AFC champs.
I don't expect the Vikings' defense to improve from bottom to top in one year like the Jets did. But they don't need to. I agree with your last sentence though.
I guess I should rephrase that...people who are former players, coaches and front office people who are paid analysts to give opinions. As to your examples I think it was reasonable to assume when the Jets hired a DC to become their coach, a very successful one at that, in conjunction with players added like a Sauce Gardner that they were going to be much better on that side of the ball. The Bucs added the greatest quarterback of all time to a loaded roster, so that turnaround was hardly surprising. Ditto with the Bengals who got a healthy Joe Burrow and added Jamar Chase amongst other players. The Vikings have not added those kind of impact players to our roster and IMO mistakenly elected to part with one of the best running backs in football which only weakens a strength from last season. Mattison is not Dalvin Cook and I think his loss is going to hurt more then most people expect. I know neither of us were huge Addison guys heading into the draft, so at the very least you hope he can step in and replace Thielens production. To me this just reeks of a .500 type football team
Quote: @Rigby said:
Nice list. I would diverge on the QB and 2 of the linebackers. Tarkenton, Studwell and Siemon over Henderson and Greenway (yeah I know that's 2 MLB). I would also give strong consideration to Ed McDaniel, as well as the woefully underappreciated Jim Marshall in Doleman's spot. Would agree with the balance.
Was going to mention Marshall as well. Even though he's well known by Vikings fans I believe he's one of the most underrated DE's ever and should be in the HOF.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
To me this just reeks of a .500 type football team
Might be. As I always say, every team in the NFL is a couple of players, key bounces and injuries away from a reversed fortune. You seem to only acknowledge the negative though. And yes, there are a few of those (Thielen>Addison, Cook>Mattison), but neither is a huge downgrade. Considering how ineffective Thielen was late last year, Addison might even be an upgrade.
And sure, the secondary is young and injury prone, but late last year we were starting Chandon Sullivan, Cam Dantzler and a practice squad player who was cut from the worst team in the NFL. He played well for us, but still.
There are just as many reasons why this team might be even better than last year. Maybe not a better record, but it could be a better overall team.
1. Kirk Cousins returning to the same offensive scheme for the first time since 2016. Same five OL returning for the first time in a decade. Don't discount continuity. It's huge. Cook or not, this offense is going to be very, very good.
2. A full year and a full training camp for Hockenson. Josh Oliver.
3. Brian Flores. How does a team win 13 games with a defense as bad as ours was? It's mind boggling. I'm not expecting a "good" defense until 2024, but a middling defense makes the Vikings a tough team to beat.
Quote: @1VikesFan said:
@ Rigby said:
Nice list. I would diverge on the QB and 2 of the linebackers. Tarkenton, Studwell and Siemon over Henderson and Greenway (yeah I know that's 2 MLB). I would also give strong consideration to Ed McDaniel, as well as the woefully underappreciated Jim Marshall in Doleman's spot. Would agree with the balance.
Was going to mention Marshall as well. Even though he's well known by Vikings fans I believe he's one of the most underrated DE's ever and should be in the HOF.
Hopefully this is the year.
These guys aren't getting any younger.
Quote: @1VikesFan said:
@ Rigby said:
Nice list. I would diverge on the QB and 2 of the linebackers. Tarkenton, Studwell and Siemon over Henderson and Greenway (yeah I know that's 2 MLB). I would also give strong consideration to Ed McDaniel, as well as the woefully underappreciated Jim Marshall in Doleman's spot. Would agree with the balance.
Was going to mention Marshall as well. Even though he's well known by Vikings fans I believe he's one of the most underrated DE's ever and should be in the HOF.
one thing I always wonder about the PPE defense... were they really all that great, or where their accomplishments a sum of their collective skill level, I am not trying to diminish any one of their accolades, but were they are singularly that dominant, or would some of them be much more mortal if they had been on a more average team? I wonder how much better some guys over the years would have looked if they hadnt been able to be focused on by opposing offenses or defenses. ( kinda the Emmitt Smith question I guess, who I never thought was all that great, just had a great OL and decent QB and passing game that allowed him huge holes and miles of open field to run to )
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
To me this just reeks of a .500 type football team
Might be. As I always say, every team in the NFL is a couple of players, key bounces and injuries away from a reversed fortune. You seem to only acknowledge the negative though. And yes, there are a few of those (Thielen>Addison, Cook>Mattison), but neither is a huge downgrade. Considering how ineffective Thielen was late last year, Addison might even be an upgrade.
And sure, the secondary is young and injury prone, but late last year we were starting Chandon Sullivan, Cam Dantzler and a practice squad player who was cut from the worst team in the NFL. He played well for us, but still.
There are just as many reasons why this team might be even better than last year. Maybe not a better record, but it could be a better overall team.
1. Kirk Cousins returning to the same offensive scheme for the first time since 2016. Same five OL returning for the first time in a decade. Don't discount continuity. It's huge. Cook or not, this offense is going to be very, very good.
2. A full year and a full training camp for Hockenson. Josh Oliver.
3. Brian Flores. How does a team win 13 games with a defense as bad as ours was? It's mind boggling. I'm not expecting a "good" defense until 2024, but a middling defense makes the Vikings a tough team to beat.
I would add a 1.b. KOC being in his second year. He did some stuff well in his first year, but his running game was about non-existent. Hopefully he spent the offseason self-scouting and building some resolve to fix that. A bit of balance would make this offense insane.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
To me this just reeks of a .500 type football team
Might be. As I always say, every team in the NFL is a couple of players, key bounces and injuries away from a reversed fortune. You seem to only acknowledge the negative though. And yes, there are a few of those (Thielen>Addison, Cook>Mattison), but neither is a huge downgrade. Considering how ineffective Thielen was late last year, Addison might even be an upgrade.
And sure, the secondary is young and injury prone, but late last year we were starting Chandon Sullivan, Cam Dantzler and a practice squad player who was cut from the worst team in the NFL. He played well for us, but still.
There are just as many reasons why this team might be even better than last year. Maybe not a better record, but it could be a better overall team.
1. Kirk Cousins returning to the same offensive scheme for the first time since 2016. Same five OL returning for the first time in a decade. Don't discount continuity. It's huge. Cook or not, this offense is going to be very, very good.
2. A full year and a full training camp for Hockenson. Josh Oliver.
3. Brian Flores. How does a team win 13 games with a defense as bad as ours was? It's mind boggling. I'm not expecting a "good" defense until 2024, but a middling defense makes the Vikings a tough team to beat.
I just don't see any substantial upgrades to a team that overperformed and pulled out a lot of come from behind, last minute victories last year. We hope the secondary is better and can stay healthy. We are banking on a guy who had half a sack the entirety of last season and is transitioning to a new scheme replacing the production of a pro bowl player for us (Zadarius). Our down three is one of the worst collective units in the league in front of a very mediocre Jordan Hicks and an undersized Asamoah. Replacing Tomlinson with Dean Lowry is a downgrade. I contend while the secondary should be better by virtue of scheme change, we are going to struggle to stop the run this season. Losing the leadership of Kendricks will hurt. I think we all better pray Flores is the miracle worker he's being made out to be because our roster defensively is still not good.
Offensively we still have a lot of weapons but teams are not going to game plan to stop Alex Mattison. They had to worry about Cook taking a swing pass or getting around the corner and going 90 on them. Losing that element is going to hurt, but then again KOC is a former quarterback who is a pass first and ask questions later kind of guy...so maybe it's inconsequential who the running back is if Cousins is throwing it around the yard 50 times a game? I'm not sold on Addison but you have to hope he can at least come in and replace the production of Thielen last year. You certainly won't replace Thielens leadership. Oliver is an inconsequential signing to me..
I just think overall when your biggest roster "upgrade" is coach who is on his 3rd team in three years and has never been a defensive coordinator before, it doesn't lend to lot of confidence that things have been upgraded for team that despite the win total last year was clearly running fourth or fifth best in the conference. But let's let Kwesi cook!
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ supafreak84 said:
QB- Brett Favre, and I say this based only on his one season (2009) and it being the only time Ive EVER felt we've had an elite quarterback. Fran has all the franchise stats but Favre is universally considered the better quarterback. Culpepper is the only other option but I never felt he was on the level of Favre, even into his 40's. I have no doubt we would have won the Super Bowl in 2009 if it wasn't for the Saints essentially putting a bounty on Favre and trying to injure him. Controversial based on only two seasons in Minnesota but 2009 was the greatest ride I've ever experienced as a fan in large part due to Brett Favre..
RB- Adrian Peterson
WR- Randy Moss
WR- Cris Carter
WR- Justin Jefferson
TE- Steve Jordan
LT- Gary Zimmerman
LG- Randall McDaniel
C- Mick Tingelhoff
RG- Steve Hutchinson
RT- Ron Yary
DE- Carl Eller
DT- John Randle
DT- Alan Page
DE- Chris Doleman
LB- Matt Blair
LB- EJ Henderson
LB- Chad Greenway
CB- Carl Lee
CB- Antoine Wifield
S- Joey Browner
S- Paul Krause
Not a bad list!
We'll all certainly have our own takes...I was in my teens the last time the Vikings played in a SB
Tweaks for me:
I cant put Favre on the list for one fun year over Tark
Much as I love JJ, he's got more to prove b4 I put him on an all time list over Rashad or White
Henderson/Greenway dont make my list over Studwell and McNeil
Ed White would get a lot of OG consideration - but McDaniel is maybe the greatest to have played the position.
Agree on the LBs. And Ed White would get consideration, but I don't think he was better than Hutch. And Tark (even though I hate the man) probably deserves to be above Favre. But if you're talking best single season, Favre's 2009 is a solid contender with Pep's 2004 for best all time.
But I wouldn't put Rashad or White over JJ. JJ's just that good. Think about it this way: if you had to win one game and you could choose any of the those three in their prime to pair with Moss and Carter, I think you're far more likely to win that game with JJ.
No, couldn't put him over a HOF'er like Hutch either.
Certainly one of the better OG's we had the last 50 years - I remember back in the day, the NFL strongest man competitions.
He was always a stud.
Sadly, diagnosed with Alzheimers back in 2018.
Is it possible that any other "All time team" could be as good as ours?I don't think so.
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