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01-07-2022, 08:39 PM

Quote: @MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:
Meanwhile a couple guys that many of us on this board were pounding the table for in Ben Cleveland and Quinn Meinerz look like they are going to be very solid pro's. Both picked after the Vikings made three selections in the 3rd round.
Oh now let's not start that. Because of an injury, Cleveland started, what, one game? Two? He graded in the 40s, which is downright Doziery. Meinerz has been a little better, but little better than average. In either case, it's way too early to make a judgement on that 3rd round...for ALL teams.
I saw an article the other day bemoaning the Vikings lack of contribution from the 3rd round. Providing ZERO context, which is hugely irresponsible. Here's the 3rd round. Go ahead, list all the starters from the 21 draft. Truth is, very few teams get significant contribution from 3rd rounders in their 1st season. Players like Hunter, Mattison, Dantzler, Elflein, McKinnon have spoiled Viking fans. But they are the exception, not the rule.

Cleveland was a day 1 starter so that says something about his upside. Meinnerz has looked very solid in Denver. Kendrick Green was another guy I liked a lot who has been a day 1 starter in Pittsburgh. There's lots of guys on that list who have contributed and played a lot of meaningful snaps for their teams. Meanwhile we've gotten nothing all year out of Mond, Surratt, Jones and Wyatt Davis. They've all been inactive all year and now work ethic and/or bust whispers have come up about Mond and Davis from Vikings coaches.

Slice it anyway you want but that pack of mid rounders Rick accumulated from the 2021 draft made zero impact for a team that needed it
Cleveland rotated early on until he got hurt, but he didn't start a game until week 15.
https://www.nfl.com/players/ben-cleveland/stats/

His PFF grade: 49.7.
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/ben-cleveland/41696

You wanna crown his ass, then crown him. But you might want to wait two or three years before declaring any of these guys a better pick than anyone else. What's more, the Vikings 1st two picks were projects. We knew that when we drafted them. The other two are fair game, but their lack of contribution, in context with the rest of the 3rd round, is not out of line.
Lol well of course it's too early to tell on any of them. That's an obvious statement. All I'm saying is we had four....four f'n picks in the 3rd round and we got no impact or return on any of them this year when we needed it. Coaches have not had very reassuring things to say recently on Mond and Davis.
Yes it is an obvious statement, which really should render the rest of your paragraph irrelevant.

01-07-2022, 08:49 PM

Quote: @supafreak84 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:
Meanwhile a couple guys that many of us on this board were pounding the table for in Ben Cleveland and Quinn Meinerz look like they are going to be very solid pro's. Both picked after the Vikings made three selections in the 3rd round.
Oh now let's not start that. Because of an injury, Cleveland started, what, one game? Two? He graded in the 40s, which is downright Doziery. Meinerz has been a little better, but little better than average. In either case, it's way too early to make a judgement on that 3rd round...for ALL teams.
I saw an article the other day bemoaning the Vikings lack of contribution from the 3rd round. Providing ZERO context, which is hugely irresponsible. Here's the 3rd round. Go ahead, list all the starters from the 21 draft. Truth is, very few teams get significant contribution from 3rd rounders in their 1st season. Players like Hunter, Mattison, Dantzler, Elflein, McKinnon have spoiled Viking fans. But they are the exception, not the rule.

Cleveland was a day 1 starter so that says something about his upside. Meinnerz has looked very solid in Denver. Kendrick Green was another guy I liked a lot who has been a day 1 starter in Pittsburgh. There's lots of guys on that list who have contributed and played a lot of meaningful snaps for their teams. Meanwhile we've gotten nothing all year out of Mond, Surratt, Jones and Wyatt Davis. They've all been inactive all year and now work ethic and/or bust whispers have come up about Mond and Davis from Vikings coaches.

Slice it anyway you want but that pack of mid rounders Rick accumulated from the 2021 draft made zero impact for a team that needed it
Cleveland rotated early on until he got hurt, but he didn't start a game until week 15.
https://www.nfl.com/players/ben-cleveland/stats/

His PFF grade: 49.7.
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/ben-cleveland/41696

You wanna crown his ass, then crown him. But you might want to wait two or three years before declaring any of these guys a better pick than anyone else. What's more, the Vikings 1st two picks were projects. We knew that when we drafted them. The other two are fair game, but their lack of contribution, in context with the rest of the 3rd round, is not out of line.
Lol well of course it's too early to tell on any of them. That's an obvious statement. All I'm saying is we had four....four f'n picks in the 3rd round and we got no impact or return on any of them this year when we needed it. Coaches have not had very reassuring things to say recently on Mond and Davis.
Yes it is an obvious statement, which really should render the rest of your paragraph irrelevant.

Quote: @MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:
Meanwhile a couple guys that many of us on this board were pounding the table for in Ben Cleveland and Quinn Meinerz look like they are going to be very solid pro's. Both picked after the Vikings made three selections in the 3rd round.
Oh now let's not start that. Because of an injury, Cleveland started, what, one game? Two? He graded in the 40s, which is downright Doziery. Meinerz has been a little better, but little better than average. In either case, it's way too early to make a judgement on that 3rd round...for ALL teams.
I saw an article the other day bemoaning the Vikings lack of contribution from the 3rd round. Providing ZERO context, which is hugely irresponsible. Here's the 3rd round. Go ahead, list all the starters from the 21 draft. Truth is, very few teams get significant contribution from 3rd rounders in their 1st season. Players like Hunter, Mattison, Dantzler, Elflein, McKinnon have spoiled Viking fans. But they are the exception, not the rule.

Cleveland was a day 1 starter so that says something about his upside. Meinnerz has looked very solid in Denver. Kendrick Green was another guy I liked a lot who has been a day 1 starter in Pittsburgh. There's lots of guys on that list who have contributed and played a lot of meaningful snaps for their teams. Meanwhile we've gotten nothing all year out of Mond, Surratt, Jones and Wyatt Davis. They've all been inactive all year and now work ethic and/or bust whispers have come up about Mond and Davis from Vikings coaches.

Slice it anyway you want but that pack of mid rounders Rick accumulated from the 2021 draft made zero impact for a team that needed it
Cleveland rotated early on until he got hurt, but he didn't start a game until week 15.
https://www.nfl.com/players/ben-cleveland/stats/

His PFF grade: 49.7.
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/ben-cleveland/41696

You wanna crown his ass, then crown him. But you might want to wait two or three years before declaring any of these guys a better pick than anyone else. What's more, the Vikings 1st two picks were projects. We knew that when we drafted them. The other two are fair game, but their lack of contribution, in context with the rest of the 3rd round, is not out of line.
Lol well of course it's too early to tell on any of them. That's an obvious statement. All I'm saying is we had four....four f'n picks in the 3rd round and we got no impact or return on any of them this year when we needed it. Coaches have not had very reassuring things to say recently on Mond and Davis.
Yes it is an obvious statement, which really should render the rest of your paragraph irrelevant.

So you disagree and think our gaggle of mid rounders made an impact this year? We must be watching different teams. I'm thrilled Mond was able to step in for Cousins in a must win game when we needed him instead of starting Mannion who we know sucked. I'm thrilled Surratt could come in and fill in for Barr during his annual injury. Davis looked great coming in for a struggling Udoh and giving us reps. Oh and I'm happy Jones could fill in for Griffen when he went crazy again. Instead of Mond we got Mannion, instead of Surratt we got Vigil, instead of Davis we got Mason Cole switching over from center, and instead of Jones we got Willikes and Richardson moving over from tackle.

Nobody is crowning anybody. Just saying our rookie impact THIS SEASON has been hugely disappointing and the arrow is pointing down on a few of them

01-07-2022, 09:06 PM

It's interesting that the Packers selected Royce Newman in the 4th round at pick 142 and he has started every game for them playing 100% of the snaps.

Davis was drafted in the 3rd round at pick #86 and has not played on snap in the regular offense.

I do not know what Newman's PFF grade is and do not care.

The dude is getting experience and looks to be long time starter.

We have no clue what we have in Davis. Yet.

Considering who was in front of Davis it is even more perplexing.

The Vikings development plan for young players is different than the Packers (in this case).

01-07-2022, 09:42 PM

You can look at the last draft as Spielman saying FU to Zimmer by drafting on potential instead of immediate impact -- something Zimmer needed this year. In turn, you can look at this year's playing time as Zimmer's FU to Spielman -- basically making the draft look bad because Spielman's picks ca't get on the field.

01-07-2022, 09:51 PM

Quote: @greediron said:

@VikingOracle said:
Now, you mention Andre Patterson's ability to develop talent and I agree with you. Let's compare him to Zimmer. Here are the players drafted at DL since 2015:

Danielle Hunter (3rd round; still playing)

BJ Dubose (6th round)

Jaleel Johnson (4th round, still playing)

Ifeadi Odenigbo (7th round, still playing)

Jalyn Holmes (4th round, still playing)

Ade Aruna (6th round)

Armon Watts (6th round, still playing)

DJ Wonnum (4th round, still playing)

James Lynch (4th round, still playing)

Kenny Willekes (7th round, still playing)

Patrick Jones (3rd round)

Janarius Robinson (4th round)

Jaylen Twyman (6th round).

So, since 2015, the Vikings have not drafted a DL higher than the 3rd round; have drafted a total of 13 dl in that time and all but 2 are still in the NFL. I will agree with you, that looks like a coach good at developing talent as most have outplayed their draft position.

So, no, I would not lump Zimmer and Patterson together as coaches able to develop players. You also see Patterson giving back-ups/young players reps (not caused by injuries).
Lol, sorry that isn't that impressive. Hunter has been a find, but is turning into a david boston type, too rip and always hurt.

The rest, Watts and Lynch are getting good reps and looking decent. The rest on the Vikings are playing because we lack depth and hunter and Griff are out.

That said, Patterson's resume is much longer and more impressive than that.

Greed: I am sincerely interested in knowing which current Viking coach you think has best developed talent during his tenure with the Vikings. Or do you think the Vikes should get rid of them all?

Weirdly, looking back, during the Zimmer years, have the Vikings been better at developing offensive talent than defensive talent?

01-07-2022, 09:58 PM

Quote: @VikingOracle said:
You can look at the last draft as Spielman saying FU to Zimmer by drafting on potential instead of immediate impact -- something Zimmer needed this year. In turn, you can look at this year's playing time as Zimmer's FU to Spielman -- basically making the draft look bad because Spielman's picks ca't get on the field.

That's a great point. I wonder if they aren't as happy together and with the direction of the roster as they portray. I remember the behind the scenes stuff for the draft this year and Zimmer did not look pleased with the trade down in the first round. Well it might end up costing them both their jobs

01-07-2022, 10:59 PM

Quote: @VikingOracle said:

@greediron said:

@VikingOracle said:
Now, you mention Andre Patterson's ability to develop talent and I agree with you. Let's compare him to Zimmer. Here are the players drafted at DL since 2015:

Danielle Hunter (3rd round; still playing)

BJ Dubose (6th round)

Jaleel Johnson (4th round, still playing)

Ifeadi Odenigbo (7th round, still playing)

Jalyn Holmes (4th round, still playing)

Ade Aruna (6th round)

Armon Watts (6th round, still playing)

DJ Wonnum (4th round, still playing)

James Lynch (4th round, still playing)

Kenny Willekes (7th round, still playing)

Patrick Jones (3rd round)

Janarius Robinson (4th round)

Jaylen Twyman (6th round).

So, since 2015, the Vikings have not drafted a DL higher than the 3rd round; have drafted a total of 13 dl in that time and all but 2 are still in the NFL. I will agree with you, that looks like a coach good at developing talent as most have outplayed their draft position.

So, no, I would not lump Zimmer and Patterson together as coaches able to develop players. You also see Patterson giving back-ups/young players reps (not caused by injuries).
Lol, sorry that isn't that impressive. Hunter has been a find, but is turning into a david boston type, too rip and always hurt.

The rest, Watts and Lynch are getting good reps and looking decent. The rest on the Vikings are playing because we lack depth and hunter and Griff are out.

That said, Patterson's resume is much longer and more impressive than that.
Greed: I am sincerely interested in knowing which current Viking coach you think has best developed talent during his tenure with the Vikings. Or do you think the Vikes should get rid of them all?

Weirdly, looking back, during the Zimmer years, have the Vikings been better at developing offensive talent than defensive talent?

I think Patterson is pretty good, just that your list of D-line isn't that great. Only one star and he is always hurt. Watts might be a starter, but other than that, meh.

Gray was involved with the DBs and I think he did good. But I guess we differ on that opinion. Seeing the lack of decent DBs now and how it really takes down the entire D, I look back at Rhodes, Waynes and Mac with appreciation.

01-07-2022, 11:37 PM

Quote: @greediron said:
Greed: I am sincerely interested in knowing which current Viking coach you think has best developed talent during his tenure with the Vikings. Or do you think the Vikes should get rid of them all?

Weirdly, looking back, during the Zimmer years, have the Vikings been better at developing offensive talent than defensive talent?
I think Patterson is pretty good, just that your list of D-line isn't that great. Only one star and he is always hurt. Watts might be a starter, but other than that, meh.

Gray was involved with the DBs and I think he did good. But I guess we differ on that opinion. Seeing the lack of decent DBs now and how it really takes down the entire D, I look back at Rhodes, Waynes and Mac with appreciation.

Rhodes is probably the most interesting as he really developed and then totally became toast with the Vikings in his last year. Then he bounced back well. Some of that may be injury recovery but something definitely got into his head that last season -- many missed assignments, etc.

Waynes became a decent DB but never lived up to his draft status.

Mac had one decent year. His free agent signing showed to me that he was not well respected in the league even coming off his best year. I think he is his own worst enemy.

Of course, with the three players you identify, you are talking two 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder -- that is pretty high quality clay to mould.

Frankly, I think an argument can be made that the Vikes have had better success recently developing running backs and wide receivers than defensive players.

01-07-2022, 11:45 PM

Davis is just setting the table to be next year's KJ Osborn.

01-08-2022, 01:07 AM

Yah but, didn't KJ at least see the field his rookie year? Fingers crossed, hoping for the best with Davis...