Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ JustinTime18™ said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ JustinTime18™ said:
@ pattersaur said:
Playing for a division crown… must be nice.
Jones played bad but he’s a rookie. What are Stafford and Cousins’ excuse?
With the Pats D we are 12-3 at worst.
Rams are in first place in the NFC West. What's our point?
We used to have a defense as good as the Patriots are this season. Problem is... a couple years ago we decided to pay a QB a big percentage of our cap and don't have the luxury of a QB on a rookie contract anymore. And our GM hasn't done a good job of replacing the expensive veteran defenders we had to let go to get under the cap.
Who do you want back? Rhodes? Waynes? Sendejo?
Really?
I get really tired of people latching on to one part of a post and taking t completely out of context, did you miss the part where I said our GM hasn't done a good job of replacing those veteran defenders? Yes, Rhodes, Waynes, and Harris were all very good players for us. Yes, if we kept Waynes and Harris our secondary likely would have been better the past two seasons. We also cut Griffen and Robison for cap purposes as well as Linval Joseph. It wasn't just our secondary that took a hit.
At the end of the day, we picked Cousins. At that point, we made the decision to draft and develop to fit young players on cheap contracts around our QB. The problem is Spielman has whiffed on both his CB picks in the first round and we haven't put an emphasis on replacing the pass rushers we lost. Wonnum might have some promise, but it's been 3 years since we let Robison go and Griffen left the year after.
I know some love to fault Zimmer for everything wrong with this team, but Rick certainly shares as much (or more) of the blame for our defense going backwards. We've taken a big step back in overall talent and all these 1-year bandaids on defense isn't a sustainable way for Zimmer to have a good defense.
We can talk about these things and not be a dick to each other. I'm not sure why everything has to be an internet battle.
You really think Rhodes, Waynes, Joseph, Harris, Griffen and Robison were let go because we paid Cousins so much? That's a huge stretch. I don't remember anyone complaining about letting any of them walk. With the possible exception of Joseph, the simple fact is that their performance and long-term potential no longer matched their value on the market.
And your comment about Rick deserving "as much or more" of the blame is ridiculous. The Vikings have consistently built competitive rosters. You don't find too many teams with players like JJ and Dalvin and Thielen and Mattison and ISJ and Hunter and Pierce and Barr and Kendricks and Harry. It's the simple fact that this team IS so talented that Zimmer's failures stand out so much.
It's not just Viking fans saying this. Every week the announcers mention how this is the best X-X team in the NFL. It really is. So why do we keep losing? Why is there a breakdown so fucking always? It sure as hell ain't Rick Spielman. LOL.
I guess we see different things. I see a competitive roster on one side of the ball (the offense) that lost the identity of it's HC and the style of team that was successful under him.
This team won because of a strong defense and Spielman let that side of the ball dry up by not putting enough emphasis on acquiring the right pass rushers and DBs to sustain the departures of Rhodes, Waynes, Harris, Griffen, Linval, etc.
Zimmer runs a complex scheme that is very good when players have time to learn it and we have talent at DE and CB. We don't have any of that now... especially with all the 1-year deals Spielman handed out on that side of the ball the last two years. Those decisions have had more of an impact on the defense, it's not like Zimmer and Dre forgot how to coach that side of the ball.
If we're gonna move on from Zimmer, I think it's time to start fresh. Spielman has had enough time and has done a good job in the draft overall, but he's missed on more first rounders lately and he's made some questionable trades the past two off-seasons. I would rather find a HC and GM who work well together and bring in both than let Spielman pick a 3rd HC.
For instance, I'd look hard at someone in the Cowboys FO since they've been on a roll drafting the past couple years and Moore seems like a great fit for the talent we have on offense. You get two guys who are familiar with each other and you can kick start this thing quick.
Quote: @Wetlander said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ JustinTime18™ said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ JustinTime18™ said:
@ pattersaur said:
Playing for a division crown… must be nice.
Jones played bad but he’s a rookie. What are Stafford and Cousins’ excuse?
With the Pats D we are 12-3 at worst.
Rams are in first place in the NFC West. What's our point?
We used to have a defense as good as the Patriots are this season. Problem is... a couple years ago we decided to pay a QB a big percentage of our cap and don't have the luxury of a QB on a rookie contract anymore. And our GM hasn't done a good job of replacing the expensive veteran defenders we had to let go to get under the cap.
Who do you want back? Rhodes? Waynes? Sendejo?
Really?
I get really tired of people latching on to one part of a post and taking t completely out of context, did you miss the part where I said our GM hasn't done a good job of replacing those veteran defenders? Yes, Rhodes, Waynes, and Harris were all very good players for us. Yes, if we kept Waynes and Harris our secondary likely would have been better the past two seasons. We also cut Griffen and Robison for cap purposes as well as Linval Joseph. It wasn't just our secondary that took a hit.
At the end of the day, we picked Cousins. At that point, we made the decision to draft and develop to fit young players on cheap contracts around our QB. The problem is Spielman has whiffed on both his CB picks in the first round and we haven't put an emphasis on replacing the pass rushers we lost. Wonnum might have some promise, but it's been 3 years since we let Robison go and Griffen left the year after.
I know some love to fault Zimmer for everything wrong with this team, but Rick certainly shares as much (or more) of the blame for our defense going backwards. We've taken a big step back in overall talent and all these 1-year bandaids on defense isn't a sustainable way for Zimmer to have a good defense.
We can talk about these things and not be a dick to each other. I'm not sure why everything has to be an internet battle.
You really think Rhodes, Waynes, Joseph, Harris, Griffen and Robison were let go because we paid Cousins so much? That's a huge stretch. I don't remember anyone complaining about letting any of them walk. With the possible exception of Joseph, the simple fact is that their performance and long-term potential no longer matched their value on the market.
And your comment about Rick deserving "as much or more" of the blame is ridiculous. The Vikings have consistently built competitive rosters. You don't find too many teams with players like JJ and Dalvin and Thielen and Mattison and ISJ and Hunter and Pierce and Barr and Kendricks and Harry. It's the simple fact that this team IS so talented that Zimmer's failures stand out so much.
It's not just Viking fans saying this. Every week the announcers mention how this is the best X-X team in the NFL. It really is. So why do we keep losing? Why is there a breakdown so fucking always? It sure as hell ain't Rick Spielman. LOL.
I guess we see different things. I see a competitive roster on one side of the ball (the offense) that lost the identity of it's HC and the style of team that was successful under him.
This team won because of a strong defense and Spielman let that side of the ball dry up by not putting enough emphasis on acquiring the right pass rushers and DBs to sustain the departures of Rhodes, Waynes, Harris, Griffen, Linval, etc.
Zimmer runs a complex scheme that is very good when players have time to learn it and we have talent at DE and CB. We don't have any of that now... especially with all the 1-year deals Spielman handed out on that side of the ball the last two years. Those decisions have had more of an impact on the defense, it's not like Zimmer and Dre forgot how to coach that side of the ball.
If we're gonna move on from Zimmer, I think it's time to start fresh. Spielman has had enough time and has done a good job in the draft overall, but he's missed on more first rounders lately and he's made some questionable trades the past two off-seasons. I would rather find a HC and GM who work well together and bring in both than let Spielman pick a 3rd HC.
For instance, I'd look hard at someone in the Cowboys FO since they've been on a roll drafting the past couple years and Moore seems like a great fit for the talent we have on offense. You get two guys who are familiar with each other and you can kick start this thing quick.
It’d be nice to get Moore but without Mac Jones we dont stand a chance. Vikes gotta draft defense only, find a diamond in the rough QB, a reliable kicker, and a trade partner for cousins. Maybe NE for Mac Jones?
Quote: @Hawkvike25 said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ JustinTime18™ said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ JustinTime18™ said:
@ pattersaur said:
Playing for a division crown… must be nice.
Jones played bad but he’s a rookie. What are Stafford and Cousins’ excuse?
With the Pats D we are 12-3 at worst.
Rams are in first place in the NFC West. What's our point?
We used to have a defense as good as the Patriots are this season. Problem is... a couple years ago we decided to pay a QB a big percentage of our cap and don't have the luxury of a QB on a rookie contract anymore. And our GM hasn't done a good job of replacing the expensive veteran defenders we had to let go to get under the cap.
Who do you want back? Rhodes? Waynes? Sendejo?
Really?
I get really tired of people latching on to one part of a post and taking t completely out of context, did you miss the part where I said our GM hasn't done a good job of replacing those veteran defenders? Yes, Rhodes, Waynes, and Harris were all very good players for us. Yes, if we kept Waynes and Harris our secondary likely would have been better the past two seasons. We also cut Griffen and Robison for cap purposes as well as Linval Joseph. It wasn't just our secondary that took a hit.
At the end of the day, we picked Cousins. At that point, we made the decision to draft and develop to fit young players on cheap contracts around our QB. The problem is Spielman has whiffed on both his CB picks in the first round and we haven't put an emphasis on replacing the pass rushers we lost. Wonnum might have some promise, but it's been 3 years since we let Robison go and Griffen left the year after.
I know some love to fault Zimmer for everything wrong with this team, but Rick certainly shares as much (or more) of the blame for our defense going backwards. We've taken a big step back in overall talent and all these 1-year bandaids on defense isn't a sustainable way for Zimmer to have a good defense.
We can talk about these things and not be a dick to each other. I'm not sure why everything has to be an internet battle.
You really think Rhodes, Waynes, Joseph, Harris, Griffen and Robison were let go because we paid Cousins so much? That's a huge stretch. I don't remember anyone complaining about letting any of them walk. With the possible exception of Joseph, the simple fact is that their performance and long-term potential no longer matched their value on the market.
And your comment about Rick deserving "as much or more" of the blame is ridiculous. The Vikings have consistently built competitive rosters. You don't find too many teams with players like JJ and Dalvin and Thielen and Mattison and ISJ and Hunter and Pierce and Barr and Kendricks and Harry. It's the simple fact that this team IS so talented that Zimmer's failures stand out so much.
It's not just Viking fans saying this. Every week the announcers mention how this is the best X-X team in the NFL. It really is. So why do we keep losing? Why is there a breakdown so fucking always? It sure as hell ain't Rick Spielman. LOL.
I guess we see different things. I see a competitive roster on one side of the ball (the offense) that lost the identity of it's HC and the style of team that was successful under him.
This team won because of a strong defense and Spielman let that side of the ball dry up by not putting enough emphasis on acquiring the right pass rushers and DBs to sustain the departures of Rhodes, Waynes, Harris, Griffen, Linval, etc.
It’d be nice to get Moore but without Mac Jones we dont stand a chance. Vikes gotta draft defense only, find a diamond in the rough QB, a reliable kicker, and a trade partner for cousins. Maybe NE for Mac Jones?
It's funny, I was watching the Rams game with a buddy last weekend. Announcers introduced the secondary and he said, "wow, that's a pretty good secondary." I turned to him blankly and said, "uh....."
Then I thought some more about it. Patrick Peterson, 3rd round 2nd year man Cameron Dantzler, Xavier Woods and Harrison freaking Smith. Y'know what? That IS a pretty good secondary. Not elite by any means, but they really should be playing better than they are.
Who's at linebacker? Anthony Barr and Eric Kendricks. That isn't exactly a load of crap either.
What's in front of them? You can't blame anyone for what happened to Hunter and Griffen, but those were the two ends Zimmer was given to start the season. Not bad, huh? On the inside, Dalvin Tomlinson and Michael Pierce have been beasts the last few weeks. PIerce season PFF grade is 81! DT has been the highest graded defensive player on the Vikings more than any other player. Depth isn't bad either with promising young players like Wonnum and Watts and Sheldon Richardon.
So Pierce and DT in the middle, Kendricks and Harry behind. And we can't stop the run? There's something seriously wrong with that.
The problem is not talent on either side of the ball. The biggest problem is a head condition, a mindset that pervades both sides of the ball. A mindset that plays not to lose. Whether it's in prevent defense against the Lions (both games, and many others), or an unwillingness to pull out the dagger after turnovers, you see it nearly every game. That's on the HC. The 2nd biggest problem is a defensive play caller (same guy) who just can't make his defense work anymore.
I read recently where the presumptive Vikings HC opening would be the most desirable opening in the NFL. Why? Because of our front office! Because of the talent on our team. Again, talent is NOT the problem. I'm tellin' ya man, if we fire Rick along with Zim, it will be a blunder of Herschelesque proportions--one we may regret for decades.
@ MaroonBells the sum of the parts is less than the whole. It gets manifested in so many ways. Get the right coach, and we're a division winner next year, with or without Rodgers in the division.
Quote: @JustinTime18™ said:
@MaroonBells the sum of the parts is less than the whole. It gets manifested in so many ways. Get the right coach, and we're a division winner next year, with or without Rodgers in the division.
Yep. I posted something a couple of weeks back where I read an analyst saying "The Vikings have a lot of really good players, but they are not a good team". I still believe that and think with a new coach who is at least above average this team is back in the playoffs
![[Image: 0xy9k3am9ruf.jpeg]](https://vikefans.com/vfforums/uploads/editor/qm/0xy9k3am9ruf.jpeg)
Yep, this one…  B)
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ minny65 said:
When your team sucks some fans like to look around and attempt to justify their past post and opinions.
I thought Mac Jones was a late first, early second round QB and I would not have drafted him as we didn't. But he has been the best rookie QB by far. No idea his ceiling just like all the rest. For now, and even knowing that he went to the best situation I would say I was wrong on him so far.
I loved Zack Wilson - he has looked bad overall. Again, really shitty situation and too early - but I would say I am wrong on him so far.
I would have made an aggressive move up for Fields and said so at the time but when we didn't I was thrilled with getting Darrisaw, Wyatt, Mond for 14th.
Other threads I have seen the last few weeks focus some fans attention away from our own disaster - deflection
Crown Mac Jones
Stefanski is not a good HC
Paton is not a good GM
I guess those come from fans that did not want Jones, Sefanski or Paton and want to validate those opinions? All three of those could have been on the Vikings and we might have been better off with them then Cousin's,Zimmer,Spelly????
I am not rooting for or against any one of the above.
I am rooting for us to make the right choices on a new HC - yes I am against Zimmer for years.
I think Spelly stays, and I have no problem with that but that will bias the situation with Cousins as opposed to a new GM. I would be fine with this Wilf decision.
I don't think Cousins is our answer. He is just not good enough in hard times to win us a few big games. I am for trying to trade Cousins and certainly not extend him for salary cap relief.
You're being too hard on yourself. Nobody knows what kind of QB Mac Jones is going to be. And nobody was proven right or wrong about him. Or Wilson or Fields or Lance or Lawrence. It's just too early. And I say this as someone who thought Jones was underrated.
Not hard on myself at all, just a one year (too early for career judgement) honest evaluation. Of course, it is too early for all first-year players at every position but this thread was started to sort of mock Mac Jones for some reason. Again, deflection from our own house on fire.
This week, we can bring back out the Gold jacket for Mac Jones.
22/30 227 yards 3 TD's O Int's
Bill Belichick didn’t hold back any love for Mac Jones.
The usually stoic Patriots coach gushed over the rookie quarterback following New England’s 50-10 win over the Jaguars on Sunday.
“Mac’s super consistent,” Beilchick told reporters. “Every day is really the same day for Mac. He’s always well prepared, he’s in early, he’s ready to go. He knows what we’re gonna be doing and he’s got a head start on it. He maximizes the information the coaches give him.
“Maximizes the walkthroughs, the practice reps and learns from whatever happens in those situations. He’s smart, he’s a good learner but he’s got good instincts, good mechanics. He’s just worked hard to get better every day.”
Jones threw for three touchdowns and 227 yards in the win. The Alabama product has played well for the 10-6 Patriots, who clinched a playoff spot after missing last postseason when Cam Newton replaced Tom Brady as the Patriots starter.
Then we have our HC talk about our rookie QB, who apparently isn't well prepared which has nothing to do with his coaching???
Quote: @minny65 said:
This week, we can bring back out the Gold jacket for Mac Jones.
22/30 227 yards 3 TD's O Int's
Bill Belichick didn’t hold back any love for Mac Jones.
The usually stoic Patriots coach gushed over the rookie quarterback following New England’s 50-10 win over the Jaguars on Sunday.
“Mac’s super consistent,” Beilchick told reporters. “Every day is really the same day for Mac. He’s always well prepared, he’s in early, he’s ready to go. He knows what we’re gonna be doing and he’s got a head start on it. He maximizes the information the coaches give him.
“Maximizes the walkthroughs, the practice reps and learns from whatever happens in those situations. He’s smart, he’s a good learner but he’s got good instincts, good mechanics. He’s just worked hard to get better every day.”
Jones threw for three touchdowns and 227 yards in the win. The Alabama product has played well for the 10-6 Patriots, who clinched a playoff spot after missing last postseason when Cam Newton replaced Tom Brady as the Patriots starter.
Then we have our HC talk about our rookie QB, who apparently isn't well prepared which has nothing to do with his coaching???
Bill got the robot he wanted. Seems like a good match. He's set up for success. I have no idea what his ceiling is but the thought that he's the most NFL ready guy to come out in the Draft seems spot on.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ minny65 said:
This week, we can bring back out the Gold jacket for Mac Jones.
22/30 227 yards 3 TD's O Int's
Bill Belichick didn’t hold back any love for Mac Jones.
The usually stoic Patriots coach gushed over the rookie quarterback following New England’s 50-10 win over the Jaguars on Sunday.
“Mac’s super consistent,” Beilchick told reporters. “Every day is really the same day for Mac. He’s always well prepared, he’s in early, he’s ready to go. He knows what we’re gonna be doing and he’s got a head start on it. He maximizes the information the coaches give him.
“Maximizes the walkthroughs, the practice reps and learns from whatever happens in those situations. He’s smart, he’s a good learner but he’s got good instincts, good mechanics. He’s just worked hard to get better every day.”
Jones threw for three touchdowns and 227 yards in the win. The Alabama product has played well for the 10-6 Patriots, who clinched a playoff spot after missing last postseason when Cam Newton replaced Tom Brady as the Patriots starter.
Then we have our HC talk about our rookie QB, who apparently isn't well prepared which has nothing to do with his coaching???
Bill got the robot he wanted. Seems like a good match. He's set up for success. I have no idea what his ceiling is but the thought that he's the most NFL ready guy to come out in the Draft seems spot on. So now Jones is a robot. LOL.
Regarding the bold part…
We sure could have used one on Sunday night dont you think?
Anyway, I thought it was too early to make any conclusions about Jones but its fair to conclude he is a robot at this point. Got it!
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