Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ greediron said:
@ minny65 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
I will put it to rest. The Vikings have absolutely zero interest in trading Kirk Cousins. It doesn't matter if the 49ers want him, he isn't available. I also feel very confident that the 49ers would not offer the 12th pick straight up with Kirk.
I agree and said the same above your post. That said I still don't think we should rule out drafting a QB in round 1. My supply/demand theory (ponder reach) vs Favre/Rodgers. I don't think having Cousins/rookie QB is such a bad thing.
Rick's biggest failure IMO. We have never had a developmental QB worth worrying about. Ponder and some old dude. Teddy and some even older dude. Kirk and a nobody. I get having a veteran mentor for the young QB, but you gotta have something in the well in case they bust like Ponder or get hurt like Teddy. We mortgaged the future because everyone knew Hill was way over his name and wouldn't make it through the season.
Yeah, but when has a "developmental" QB ever really developed? Seems to me there are three kinds: QBs you draft in the 1st to be starters, QBs you get lucky on (Dak, Brady, Wilson), and QBs who are drafted to be backups. I can't think of too many low-experience, high-upside QBs drafted in the mid-to-late rounds that actually developed into starters. Rich Gannon I guess.
I do agree that we can probably do better than Sean Mannion.
how many really get the chance? Cousins comes to mind, but most of those mid round guys never really see the field as they are behind somebody drafted higher that the coaches and gms have more professionally invested in succeeding.
I think Cousins falls more into the luck category. Like Dak, Wilson and Brady, he wasn't really developed. Those teams knew early on what they had. There's probably some middle ground on this. I just think this "mid-to-late round QB with good physical traits who just needs time" is largely a myth.
Quote: @Hawkvike25 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ greediron said:
@ minny65 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
I will put it to rest. The Vikings have absolutely zero interest in trading Kirk Cousins. It doesn't matter if the 49ers want him, he isn't available. I also feel very confident that the 49ers would not offer the 12th pick straight up with Kirk.
I agree and said the same above your post. That said I still don't think we should rule out drafting a QB in round 1. My supply/demand theory (ponder reach) vs Favre/Rodgers. I don't think having Cousins/rookie QB is such a bad thing.
Rick's biggest failure IMO. We have never had a developmental QB worth worrying about. Ponder and some old dude. Teddy and some even older dude. Kirk and a nobody. I get having a veteran mentor for the young QB, but you gotta have something in the well in case they bust like Ponder or get hurt like Teddy. We mortgaged the future because everyone knew Hill was way over his name and wouldn't make it through the season.
Yeah, but when has a "developmental" QB ever really developed? Seems to me there are three kinds: QBs you draft in the 1st to be starters, QBs you get lucky on (Dak, Brady, Wilson), and QBs who are drafted to be backups. I can't think of too many low-experience, high-upside QBs drafted in the mid-to-late rounds that actually developed into starters. Rich Gannon I guess.
I do agree that we can probably do better than Sean Mannion.
how many really get the chance? Cousins comes to mind, but most of those mid round guys never really see the field as they are behind somebody drafted higher that the coaches and gms have more professionally invested in succeeding.
Quite a few get their chance when the starter goes down. Tyrod Taylor got his chance, as has CJ Beathard, Brett Hundley, Matt Flynn, and Colt McCoy. Some obviously didnt have a chance to take over for the current QB but they had their shot to get noticed for a different option
Some do, most are spot starters who have never been given a real chance to compete due to an entrenched starter. its one thing to get to see the field, its another thing to get the amount of reps with the starters to really get comfortable in that role. thats why IMO being able to mentor a rookie QB and ease them into that starter role is better than just throwing them out there and scream swim MOFO swim.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ PurpleCrush said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
I will put it to rest. The Vikings have absolutely zero interest in trading Kirk Cousins. It doesn't matter if the 49ers want him, he isn't available. I also feel very confident that the 49ers would not offer the 12th pick straight up with Kirk.
Well, I guess that's that. Geoff, let me ask you this...what's the general consensus inside the building regarding Cousins (meaning from management, coaches, players)? Is it mostly positive, and does the team believe Cousins is the guy to take them to a Super Bowl?
Depends who you ask. Nobody thinks Kirk is perfect, he isn't. But he didn't limit the team this season. Injuries and flawed personnel on the defensive side did.
So while you can probably do better than Kirk you probably need to run it back with him to see what happens this season. So while I heard they have no interest in trading him maybe seeing what the Rams offered opened a slight door for someone to feel desperate? But at the end of the day trading Kirk creates more problems than it solves. Top 5 QBs never come available, top 10 QBs hardly come available, and top 15 QBs move once and awhile.
Aside from Spielman/Zimmer needing a strong season I don't think the Wilf's would be thrilled to get the call suggesting they sunk $45M into a single season (2020) of Kirk Cousins.
I think there is enough crazy QB stuff that's going to happen this offseason nothing would surprise me. If the 49ers feel desperate enough and that their window is now....dealing for Cousins makes all the sense in the world. If I'm the Vikings I'm looking at this from the perspective of how much longer is Kirk going to realistically be in purple. His salary has crippled our ability to re-sign veterans or be real active in free agency.
If the 49ers called up and offered Jimmy Garopollo and the 12th pick for Cousins and a 3rd or 4th.....I'd think long and hard about making that deal. Garopollo has been dinged up but he's a solid QB when healthy and would give us more athleticism at the position and a cap savings of about 5 million this season and almost 20 million next season. You get to restructure Reiff's deal with that money, maybe sign a starting guard, and add a second top 15 pick in a strong draft class. Yeah on second thought.....I'm doing that deal
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ PurpleCrush said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
I will put it to rest. The Vikings have absolutely zero interest in trading Kirk Cousins. It doesn't matter if the 49ers want him, he isn't available. I also feel very confident that the 49ers would not offer the 12th pick straight up with Kirk.
Well, I guess that's that. Geoff, let me ask you this...what's the general consensus inside the building regarding Cousins (meaning from management, coaches, players)? Is it mostly positive, and does the team believe Cousins is the guy to take them to a Super Bowl?
Depends who you ask. Nobody thinks Kirk is perfect, he isn't. But he didn't limit the team this season. Injuries and flawed personnel on the defensive side did.
So while you can probably do better than Kirk you probably need to run it back with him to see what happens this season. So while I heard they have no interest in trading him maybe seeing what the Rams offered opened a slight door for someone to feel desperate? But at the end of the day trading Kirk creates more problems than it solves. Top 5 QBs never come available, top 10 QBs hardly come available, and top 15 QBs move once and awhile.
Aside from Spielman/Zimmer needing a strong season I don't think the Wilf's would be thrilled to get the call suggesting they sunk $45M into a single season (2020) of Kirk Cousins.
I think there is enough crazy QB stuff that's going to happen this offseason nothing would surprise me. If the 49ers feel desperate enough and that their window is now....dealing for Cousins makes all the sense in the world. If I'm the Vikings I'm looking at this from the perspective of how much longer is Kirk going to realistically be in purple. His salary has crippled our ability to re-sign veterans or be real active in free agency.
If the 49ers called up and offered Jimmy Garopollo and the 12th pick for Cousins and a 3rd or 4th.....I'd think long and hard about making that deal. Garopollo has been dinged up but he's a solid QB when healthy and would give us more athleticism at the position and a cap savings of about 5 million this season and almost 20 million next season. You get to restructure Reiff's deal with that money, maybe sign a starting guard, and add a second top 15 pick in a strong draft class. Yeah on second thought.....I'm doing that deal
I don't think the Cousins has crippled their cap space at all. Kirk gets the blame since he's the highest paid player on the team. Playing win-now and resigning/keeping players past their expiration dates is the real culprit. The Ngokoue trade along cost them $7M in space that could have been rolled over. They didn't need to keep Ant Harris and the idea of a tag & trade flopped so there is another $11M. The Diggs trade left $14M in dead money on the books so at least Jefferson made that a valuable deal. But if you add up those three moves you're already over $30M.
So the idea that Kirk is killing the cap is a myth. Its the moves around him that has pushed them up to and above the salary cap.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ greediron said:
@ minny65 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
I will put it to rest. The Vikings have absolutely zero interest in trading Kirk Cousins. It doesn't matter if the 49ers want him, he isn't available. I also feel very confident that the 49ers would not offer the 12th pick straight up with Kirk.
I agree and said the same above your post. That said I still don't think we should rule out drafting a QB in round 1. My supply/demand theory (ponder reach) vs Favre/Rodgers. I don't think having Cousins/rookie QB is such a bad thing.
Rick's biggest failure IMO. We have never had a developmental QB worth worrying about. Ponder and some old dude. Teddy and some even older dude. Kirk and a nobody. I get having a veteran mentor for the young QB, but you gotta have something in the well in case they bust like Ponder or get hurt like Teddy. We mortgaged the future because everyone knew Hill was way over his name and wouldn't make it through the season.
Yeah, but when has a "developmental" QB ever really developed? Seems to me there are three kinds: QBs you draft in the 1st to be starters, QBs you get lucky on (Dak, Brady, Wilson), and QBs who are drafted to be backups. I can't think of too many low-experience, high-upside QBs drafted in the mid-to-late rounds that actually developed into starters. Rich Gannon I guess.
I do agree that we can probably do better than Sean Mannion.
how many really get the chance? Cousins comes to mind, but most of those mid round guys never really see the field as they are behind somebody drafted higher that the coaches and gms have more professionally invested in succeeding.
I think Cousins falls more into the luck category. Like Dak, Wilson and Brady, he wasn't really developed. Those teams knew early on what they had. There's probably some middle ground on this. I just think this "mid-to-late round QB with good physical traits who just needs time" is largely a myth.
To be clear, I am not just talking the rookie FA type with a huge arm and a loose cannon. To me, taking a 2nd, 3rd or 4th on a guy with some actual talent makes sense. Wilson and Dak are prime examples. Cousins is another. They may not turn out, but having a cheap reliable option at the most important position is worth some draft capital.
It doesn’t really matter that Cousins + Jefferson + Thielen
+ Cook + Rudolph + Smith + half an OLine wasn’t worse than our JV defense. What matters is, “Can we realistically build
a SB winning team around Cousins”? I
just don’t think the odds of a midlevel QB winning the SB are that good. I think you need to have a perfect team
and/or get massively lucky to win 3-4 games in a row against playoff caliber
teams with a midlevel QB. I think the
path to a SB victory is about as short as the path to getting an elite level
QB, and if you never make an effort to get an elite QB, you’re not moving
forward on the path unless the entire universe colludes in your favor for that one rare but perfect season.
I don’t agree with the idea of dumping Cousins to pick up a
scrub QB, and then hoping an elite one falls in your lap, but if having Cousins
prevents you from picking the guy that might develop into a HOF caliber QB, you’re
doing it wrong.
I also think the NFL has a serious problem developing QBs. I think they really need to consider increasing
the roster size and having some sort of method for letting teams develop 4 or 5
QBs at a time. I think if I was an owner
I’d be trying to carry a bunch of players that were not rostered but only
really there to help improve the QBs development. Like the 3rd through 5th
QBs would spend most of their time on fundamentals more so than worrying about winning
the game.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ PurpleCrush said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
I will put it to rest. The Vikings have absolutely zero interest in trading Kirk Cousins. It doesn't matter if the 49ers want him, he isn't available. I also feel very confident that the 49ers would not offer the 12th pick straight up with Kirk.
Well, I guess that's that. Geoff, let me ask you this...what's the general consensus inside the building regarding Cousins (meaning from management, coaches, players)? Is it mostly positive, and does the team believe Cousins is the guy to take them to a Super Bowl?
Depends who you ask. Nobody thinks Kirk is perfect, he isn't. But he didn't limit the team this season. Injuries and flawed personnel on the defensive side did.
So while you can probably do better than Kirk you probably need to run it back with him to see what happens this season. So while I heard they have no interest in trading him maybe seeing what the Rams offered opened a slight door for someone to feel desperate? But at the end of the day trading Kirk creates more problems than it solves. Top 5 QBs never come available, top 10 QBs hardly come available, and top 15 QBs move once and awhile.
Aside from Spielman/Zimmer needing a strong season I don't think the Wilf's would be thrilled to get the call suggesting they sunk $45M into a single season (2020) of Kirk Cousins.
I think there is enough crazy QB stuff that's going to happen this offseason nothing would surprise me. If the 49ers feel desperate enough and that their window is now....dealing for Cousins makes all the sense in the world. If I'm the Vikings I'm looking at this from the perspective of how much longer is Kirk going to realistically be in purple. His salary has crippled our ability to re-sign veterans or be real active in free agency.
If the 49ers called up and offered Jimmy Garopollo and the 12th pick for Cousins and a 3rd or 4th.....I'd think long and hard about making that deal. Garopollo has been dinged up but he's a solid QB when healthy and would give us more athleticism at the position and a cap savings of about 5 million this season and almost 20 million next season. You get to restructure Reiff's deal with that money, maybe sign a starting guard, and add a second top 15 pick in a strong draft class. Yeah on second thought.....I'm doing that deal
I don't think the Cousins has crippled their cap space at all. Kirk gets the blame since he's the highest paid player on the team. Playing win-now and resigning/keeping players past their expiration dates is the real culprit. The Ngokoue trade along cost them $7M in space that could have been rolled over. They didn't need to keep Ant Harris and the idea of a tag & trade flopped so there is another $11M. The Diggs trade left $14M in dead money on the books so at least Jefferson made that a valuable deal. But if you add up those three moves you're already over $30M.
So the idea that Kirk is killing the cap is a myth. Its the moves around him that has pushed them up to and above the salary cap.
True, but he has had contracts with the Vikings that include a lot of GUARANTEED money. I am not saying that makes the cap hit higher, but it increases the perception of its value, and it also adds the feeling that his salary is "inescapable". Nearly every story reported about an NFL player signing a new deal includes verbiage like, "the team has an out in year 3" . But Cousins signed the initial 3-year deal fully guaranteed, and his extension has clauses that make the next two years fully guaranteed after day 3 of the 2021 league year or something. People have even called this "a poison pill". It enters into chat about trading him because it may impact his trade value (though I imagine contracts are a bigger aspect of any trade's compensation than most of us realize.)
The guarantees create the feeling that Cousins is some immovable block of cap hit which prevents any rearrangement within the overall team salaries, and that generates more frustration added to his actual salary cost.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ PurpleCrush said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
I will put it to rest. The Vikings have absolutely zero interest in trading Kirk Cousins. It doesn't matter if the 49ers want him, he isn't available. I also feel very confident that the 49ers would not offer the 12th pick straight up with Kirk.
Well, I guess that's that. Geoff, let me ask you this...what's the general consensus inside the building regarding Cousins (meaning from management, coaches, players)? Is it mostly positive, and does the team believe Cousins is the guy to take them to a Super Bowl?
Depends who you ask. Nobody thinks Kirk is perfect, he isn't. But he didn't limit the team this season. Injuries and flawed personnel on the defensive side did.
So while you can probably do better than Kirk you probably need to run it back with him to see what happens this season. So while I heard they have no interest in trading him maybe seeing what the Rams offered opened a slight door for someone to feel desperate? But at the end of the day trading Kirk creates more problems than it solves. Top 5 QBs never come available, top 10 QBs hardly come available, and top 15 QBs move once and awhile.
Aside from Spielman/Zimmer needing a strong season I don't think the Wilf's would be thrilled to get the call suggesting they sunk $45M into a single season (2020) of Kirk Cousins.
I think there is enough crazy QB stuff that's going to happen this offseason nothing would surprise me. If the 49ers feel desperate enough and that their window is now....dealing for Cousins makes all the sense in the world. If I'm the Vikings I'm looking at this from the perspective of how much longer is Kirk going to realistically be in purple. His salary has crippled our ability to re-sign veterans or be real active in free agency.
If the 49ers called up and offered Jimmy Garopollo and the 12th pick for Cousins and a 3rd or 4th.....I'd think long and hard about making that deal. Garopollo has been dinged up but he's a solid QB when healthy and would give us more athleticism at the position and a cap savings of about 5 million this season and almost 20 million next season. You get to restructure Reiff's deal with that money, maybe sign a starting guard, and add a second top 15 pick in a strong draft class. Yeah on second thought.....I'm doing that deal
I don't think the Cousins has crippled their cap space at all. Kirk gets the blame since he's the highest paid player on the team. Playing win-now and resigning/keeping players past their expiration dates is the real culprit. The Ngokoue trade along cost them $7M in space that could have been rolled over. They didn't need to keep Ant Harris and the idea of a tag & trade flopped so there is another $11M. The Diggs trade left $14M in dead money on the books so at least Jefferson made that a valuable deal. But if you add up those three moves you're already over $30M.
So the idea that Kirk is killing the cap is a myth. Its the moves around him that has pushed them up to and above the salary cap.
That's fair but his cap hits over the next two seasons are 31 and 45 million dollars. You move him and his contract in this Garopollo scenario and we are saving roughly 25 million dollars in salary at the QB position while getting younger and more athletic. I think it would likely assure us of keeping Reiff and maybe bringing in another offensive lineman in free agency. Something to think about
I really hope that everyone babbling endlessly about trading our QB is cripplingly disappointed, and that he has his best season by miles.
I've certainly seen whacko QB hatred among Vikings fans, but this is a whole new...low.
Cousins may not have the skill needed to get to the superbowl. But getting to the superbowl with the Vikings doesn't seem very likely.
The Vikings could pull off some trade that allowed them to get one of the top QB prospects, but that's not their style.
And even if they did, that QB won't out perform Cousins because of all the holes in the roster.
Until they get a top notch offensive line and rebuild their defense, it isn't going to matter who the QB is. Fix those two issues, then consider getting a new QB. Until then, it would seem to be like kicking the can down the road.
|
