The problem with most Viking fans is that they have ZERO perspective. They pay no attention to what other teams are doing outside of their wins and losses. And this is especially true when it comes to the draft.
Viking fans see a pick like Dru Samia in the 4th round, then see his first couple of starts, and scream "what a terrible pick!" not realizing that there are almost no 2nd year, 4th round players contributing in the NFL.
I don't know what to think of our head coach. I think he's good, but I think he has fundamental flaws that prevent him from ever becoming an excellent head coach. But our front office is one of the league's best. And Rick Spielman, if he's not the NFL's best drafting GM, he's in the top 5. Just compare what he's done in the draft to what other teams have done.
Hell, compare him to the Belichick if you want. Here are Belichick's day 1 and 2 picks for the last 8 seasons. You guys would be taking torches to Rick's house if he had this many day 1 and 2 busts, many of whom are no longer playing football.
2020 (too early obviously, but...)
Kyle Dugger, S. 2nd round, 2020, 3rd string
Josh Uche. LB, 2nd round, healthy scratch first two games. On IR now, hasn’t played a game
Anfernee Jennings, 3rd round, healthy scratch, hasn’t played a game
Vikings draft: Justin Jefferson, Jeff Gladney, Ezra Cleveland and Cameron Dantzler
2019
N’Keal Harry, WR, 1st round. Did nothing his first year. Labeled a bust already.
JoJuan Williams, DB, 2nd round. Hasn’t started a game. Has 1 tackle in 4 games this year.
Chase Winovich, LB, 3rd round. Didn’t start a game his rookie season. But looks like a decent player
Damien Harris, RB, 3rd round. Has one start in two seasons
Yodny Cajuste, OL, 3rd round. Hasn’t appeared in a single game. Taken one pick before Alexander Mattison.
Vikings draft: Garrett Bradbury, Irv Smith and Alexander Mattison
2018
Isaiah Wynn, OL, 1st round, Finally healthy, good looking player. Still, only 12 starts out of 36 games
Sony Michel, RB, 1st round, had a good week last week, but Michel is just awful. For a 1st rounder, bust.
Duke Dawson, DB, 2nd round. Didn’t play a single game his rookie season. Year later traded to Broncos for 6th rounder, where he is not a starter. Taken 6 picks before Brian O'Neill. Bust.
Vikings draft: Mike Hughes and Brian O’Neill
2017
Derek Rivers, DE, 3rd round, hasn’t started a game. Has 5 tackles in 4 seasons. Bust
Antonio Garcia, T, 3rd round, released a year later. Out of football. Bust.
Vikings draft: Dalvin Cook and Pat Elflein
2016
Cyrus Jones, DE, 2nd round. In 4 years, has played on 5 teams. Now out of football. Bust
Joe Thuney, G, 3rd round. Good player.
Jacoby Brissett, QB, 3rd round. Backup QB in Indy. Started a handful of games
Vincent Valentine, DT, 3rd round. 4 teams in 4 years. Out of football. Bust.
Vikings draft Laquon Treadwell and Mack Alexander
2015
Malcolm Brown, DT, 1st round. Patriots declined 5th year option. Decent player in New Orleans
Jordan Richards, DB, 2nd round. On his 5th team in 6 seasons. Bust
Geneo Grissom, DE, 3rd round. Played on three teams in 5 seasons. Out of football.
Vikings draft Trae Waynes, Eric Kendricks, Danielle Hunter, (Stefon Diggs)
2014
Dominique Easley, DE, 1st round. Started 3 games in 4 seasons. Out of football. Bust.
Jimmy G, QB, 2nd round. Solid, starting QB in San Francisco.
Vikings draft: Anthony Barr, Teddy Bridgewater, Jerrick McKinnon
2013
Jamie Collins, LB, 2nd round. Good player. Traded to Browns for conditional pick after 3 seasons.
Aaron Dobson, WR, 2nd round. Was out of football after 4 seasons. Bust.
Logan Ryan, DB, 3rd round, On 3rd team.
Vikings draft: Xavier Rhodes, Sharif Floyd, Cordarrelle Patterson
Patriots 2013-2020: 1 Pro Bowl season, 0 1st team All Pro seasons, 6 out of football
Vikings: 2013-2020: 15 Pro Bowl seasons. 5 1st team All Pro seasons, 1 out of football (Floyd and only because of his knee)
Perspective. Every team, organization, business, etc., does certain things well and certain things not so well. The key to success is being able to look beyond wins and losses and identify which is which.
Quote: @comet52 said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ comet52 said:
@ Jor-El said:
I know Spielman's defenders will argue that he has reformed since 2017, because he has used a fairly high pick for an OL every year since then - Elflein, O'Neill, Bradury, Cleveland. OK, that's better. But I have doubts for 2 reasons. First, if you ignore a 5-player unit for more than half a decade, you won't fix it with one player a year. Second...it's still Spielman picking.
Spielman has defenders? Will the last Spielman defender out of the building please shut off the lights?
They thought 6th rounder Brandon Fusco was a hit and this had Spielman bragging in media interviews for several years about their brilliant discovery that you could build an oline with lower round guys. Meanwhile Fusco went downhill fast and the David Yankeys of the world didn't last.
But somehow Rick stuck to this fantasy with the exception of Kalil who was basically just the safe, consensus pick at the time, until he finally conceded to reality by drafting Pat Elflein in the 3rd. As lousy at that has turned out, Elf has still seen more of the field than just about any of Rick's back-of-the-draft nobodies ever did.
It's all just sad and long past time for Rick and Zim to go. But ownership has a penchant for doubling down on football failure. So we're saddled with them and Cousins awful contract and all the rest for who knows how long.
With covid knocking revenue down and Wilf on the hook for his new, mostly empty hotel, it's possible he isn't willing to jettison the pair and eat their freshly minted extensions, even if the idea somehow worms it's way past the layer of insulation that seemingly keeps all possible smart football moves from coming in contact with his brain.
Damn - I thought I was hostile to Spielman...
But yes there are people today still praising his drafting if you hunt around on this board just a bit. Fusco...yes I thought RS shipped out Schwartz a bit too rapidly to promote Brandon. But IMO Fusco illustrates another of our problems trying to manage our OL: the idea that linemen can be moved all over and play as well at one position as another. Fusco was a decent, probably league-average, player at RG. So the Vikings braintrust thought, "He can solve our problem at LG!" But Fusco sucked at the LG. Rather than move him back to RG, they waived him. Fusco promptly wrapped up his career with the 49ers and Falcons, starting and playing decently at - you guessed it - RG before his career was ended by injury. He wasn't a star lineman but the production he gave OTHER TEAMS at RG was better than what the Vikings have.
The Vikings under Spielman have moved offensive linemen around willy-nilly. Yes, you find the occasional Joe Berger who can be a jack of multiple positions (but master none), but a lot of players seem to need to settle in at one role or are naturally best at one. Fusco should have demonstrated that, but TJ Clemmings and Jeremiah Sirles and others should have as well.
I count releasing Fusco, Schwartz, and John Sullivan (who just needed more time to recover from injury) as more unfortunate personnel mistakes. I don't know if Spielman makes the final decision who to waive, but he's part of it.
I've felt Spielman has drafted ok, compared to other teams, but what the team does with the picks especially at OL is baffling. Does that fall on Rick? I don't know, he hires the coaches. They're the ones playing tinker toys with the line year in and year out.
I just feel at this point the team needs to clean house and start over. They should have done it last winter. How are the genius Wilf bros going to feel if Stefanski builds the Browns into a powerhouse. The dummies who bought the team saying "We want to be like the Giants" and now they say "We want to be like the Steelers." They're just living in fantasyland as usual with no clue. We're more like the Lions than either of those teams. They had Tomlin on their payroll and Childress showing what an ass he was in year one, he was a terrible idiot hire to begin with. But off went Tomlin to win a title with Pittsburgh. They had Stefanski on their payroll for years, will it turn out the same? Who knows.
It's not Spielman I loathe, it's Wilf. Rick is just a guy who works hard and knows where his bread is buttered. I think one thing fans don't realize as they savage Rick is, and this is my observation you could argue I'm wrong, but he really mostly does what Wilf and Zimmer want. He serves his masters well while preserving his position, he's a political creature to some extent.
Anyhow, Wilf has wasted 16 years of my football fandom on nonsense like the TOA, Chili, Les, sticking with Spielman and Zimmer past the expiration date, and all the rest of it. People carry on about how great he is because he built some buildings. I'd take a SB trophy and a seat in the Metrodome with the team still practicing at Winter Park any day of the week over this perpetually mediocre shit I am supposed to cheer for now. End of rant. =)
I would add Eric Bienemy to the list of Tomlin and Stefanski. He was on Childress' staff here, had the title of "Assistant Head Coach", same as Frazier, but when Childress was fired, the interim HC job went to Frazier, so 10 days later Bienemy took a job with U of Colorado. Now Bienemy is a rising star and likely a head coach in the NFL within a week of this season ending (probably not with the Vikings, sadly).
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ comet52 said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ comet52 said:
@ Jor-El said:
I know Spielman's defenders will argue that he has reformed since 2017, because he has used a fairly high pick for an OL every year since then - Elflein, O'Neill, Bradury, Cleveland. OK, that's better. But I have doubts for 2 reasons. First, if you ignore a 5-player unit for more than half a decade, you won't fix it with one player a year. Second...it's still Spielman picking.
Spielman has defenders? Will the last Spielman defender out of the building please shut off the lights?
They thought 6th rounder Brandon Fusco was a hit and this had Spielman bragging in media interviews for several years about their brilliant discovery that you could build an oline with lower round guys. Meanwhile Fusco went downhill fast and the David Yankeys of the world didn't last.
But somehow Rick stuck to this fantasy with the exception of Kalil who was basically just the safe, consensus pick at the time, until he finally conceded to reality by drafting Pat Elflein in the 3rd. As lousy at that has turned out, Elf has still seen more of the field than just about any of Rick's back-of-the-draft nobodies ever did.
It's all just sad and long past time for Rick and Zim to go. But ownership has a penchant for doubling down on football failure. So we're saddled with them and Cousins awful contract and all the rest for who knows how long.
With covid knocking revenue down and Wilf on the hook for his new, mostly empty hotel, it's possible he isn't willing to jettison the pair and eat their freshly minted extensions, even if the idea somehow worms it's way past the layer of insulation that seemingly keeps all possible smart football moves from coming in contact with his brain.
Damn - I thought I was hostile to Spielman...
But yes there are people today still praising his drafting if you hunt around on this board just a bit. Fusco...yes I thought RS shipped out Schwartz a bit too rapidly to promote Brandon. But IMO Fusco illustrates another of our problems trying to manage our OL: the idea that linemen can be moved all over and play as well at one position as another. Fusco was a decent, probably league-average, player at RG. So the Vikings braintrust thought, "He can solve our problem at LG!" But Fusco sucked at the LG. Rather than move him back to RG, they waived him. Fusco promptly wrapped up his career with the 49ers and Falcons, starting and playing decently at - you guessed it - RG before his career was ended by injury. He wasn't a star lineman but the production he gave OTHER TEAMS at RG was better than what the Vikings have.
The Vikings under Spielman have moved offensive linemen around willy-nilly. Yes, you find the occasional Joe Berger who can be a jack of multiple positions (but master none), but a lot of players seem to need to settle in at one role or are naturally best at one. Fusco should have demonstrated that, but TJ Clemmings and Jeremiah Sirles and others should have as well.
I count releasing Fusco, Schwartz, and John Sullivan (who just needed more time to recover from injury) as more unfortunate personnel mistakes. I don't know if Spielman makes the final decision who to waive, but he's part of it.
I've felt Spielman has drafted ok, compared to other teams, but what the team does with the picks especially at OL is baffling. Does that fall on Rick? I don't know, he hires the coaches. They're the ones playing tinker toys with the line year in and year out.
I just feel at this point the team needs to clean house and start over. They should have done it last winter. How are the genius Wilf bros going to feel if Stefanski builds the Browns into a powerhouse. The dummies who bought the team saying "We want to be like the Giants" and now they say "We want to be like the Steelers." They're just living in fantasyland as usual with no clue. We're more like the Lions than either of those teams. They had Tomlin on their payroll and Childress showing what an ass he was in year one, he was a terrible idiot hire to begin with. But off went Tomlin to win a title with Pittsburgh. They had Stefanski on their payroll for years, will it turn out the same? Who knows.
It's not Spielman I loathe, it's Wilf. Rick is just a guy who works hard and knows where his bread is buttered. I think one thing fans don't realize as they savage Rick is, and this is my observation you could argue I'm wrong, but he really mostly does what Wilf and Zimmer want. He serves his masters well while preserving his position, he's a political creature to some extent.
Anyhow, Wilf has wasted 16 years of my football fandom on nonsense like the TOA, Chili, Les, sticking with Spielman and Zimmer past the expiration date, and all the rest of it. People carry on about how great he is because he built some buildings. I'd take a SB trophy and a seat in the Metrodome with the team still practicing at Winter Park any day of the week over this perpetually mediocre shit I am supposed to cheer for now. End of rant. =)
I would add Eric Bienemy to the list of Tomlin and Stefanski. He was on Childress' staff here, had the title of "Assistant Head Coach", same as Frazier, but when Childress was fired, the interim HC job went to Frazier, so 10 days later Bienemy took a job with U of Colorado. Now Bienemy is a rising star and likely a head coach in the NFL within a week of this season ending (probably not with the Vikings, sadly).
What makes Eric Bienemy so good all of a sudden? Overrated, and I say that liking the guy. Jets fans are bitching they want him and they already INTERVIEWED the guy for a HC job, lol. Andy Reid is the wizard of KC, not Bienemy. What Eric is is black and the media wants more minority hires so they are trumping this dude. That's just the truth. I hope Eric gets a shot but lets not act like he's a superstar. But having said that, neither are 50% of the white guys that get hired as HC, so why not Bienemy?
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ comet52 said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ comet52 said:
@ Jor-El said:
I know Spielman's defenders will argue that he has reformed since 2017, because he has used a fairly high pick for an OL every year since then - Elflein, O'Neill, Bradury, Cleveland. OK, that's better. But I have doubts for 2 reasons. First, if you ignore a 5-player unit for more than half a decade, you won't fix it with one player a year. Second...it's still Spielman picking.
Spielman has defenders? Will the last Spielman defender out of the building please shut off the lights?
They thought 6th rounder Brandon Fusco was a hit and this had Spielman bragging in media interviews for several years about their brilliant discovery that you could build an oline with lower round guys. Meanwhile Fusco went downhill fast and the David Yankeys of the world didn't last.
But somehow Rick stuck to this fantasy with the exception of Kalil who was basically just the safe, consensus pick at the time, until he finally conceded to reality by drafting Pat Elflein in the 3rd. As lousy at that has turned out, Elf has still seen more of the field than just about any of Rick's back-of-the-draft nobodies ever did.
It's all just sad and long past time for Rick and Zim to go. But ownership has a penchant for doubling down on football failure. So we're saddled with them and Cousins awful contract and all the rest for who knows how long.
With covid knocking revenue down and Wilf on the hook for his new, mostly empty hotel, it's possible he isn't willing to jettison the pair and eat their freshly minted extensions, even if the idea somehow worms it's way past the layer of insulation that seemingly keeps all possible smart football moves from coming in contact with his brain.
Damn - I thought I was hostile to Spielman...
But yes there are people today still praising his drafting if you hunt around on this board just a bit. Fusco...yes I thought RS shipped out Schwartz a bit too rapidly to promote Brandon. But IMO Fusco illustrates another of our problems trying to manage our OL: the idea that linemen can be moved all over and play as well at one position as another. Fusco was a decent, probably league-average, player at RG. So the Vikings braintrust thought, "He can solve our problem at LG!" But Fusco sucked at the LG. Rather than move him back to RG, they waived him. Fusco promptly wrapped up his career with the 49ers and Falcons, starting and playing decently at - you guessed it - RG before his career was ended by injury. He wasn't a star lineman but the production he gave OTHER TEAMS at RG was better than what the Vikings have.
The Vikings under Spielman have moved offensive linemen around willy-nilly. Yes, you find the occasional Joe Berger who can be a jack of multiple positions (but master none), but a lot of players seem to need to settle in at one role or are naturally best at one. Fusco should have demonstrated that, but TJ Clemmings and Jeremiah Sirles and others should have as well.
I count releasing Fusco, Schwartz, and John Sullivan (who just needed more time to recover from injury) as more unfortunate personnel mistakes. I don't know if Spielman makes the final decision who to waive, but he's part of it.
I've felt Spielman has drafted ok, compared to other teams, but what the team does with the picks especially at OL is baffling. Does that fall on Rick? I don't know, he hires the coaches. They're the ones playing tinker toys with the line year in and year out.
I just feel at this point the team needs to clean house and start over. They should have done it last winter. How are the genius Wilf bros going to feel if Stefanski builds the Browns into a powerhouse. The dummies who bought the team saying "We want to be like the Giants" and now they say "We want to be like the Steelers." They're just living in fantasyland as usual with no clue. We're more like the Lions than either of those teams. They had Tomlin on their payroll and Childress showing what an ass he was in year one, he was a terrible idiot hire to begin with. But off went Tomlin to win a title with Pittsburgh. They had Stefanski on their payroll for years, will it turn out the same? Who knows.
It's not Spielman I loathe, it's Wilf. Rick is just a guy who works hard and knows where his bread is buttered. I think one thing fans don't realize as they savage Rick is, and this is my observation you could argue I'm wrong, but he really mostly does what Wilf and Zimmer want. He serves his masters well while preserving his position, he's a political creature to some extent.
Anyhow, Wilf has wasted 16 years of my football fandom on nonsense like the TOA, Chili, Les, sticking with Spielman and Zimmer past the expiration date, and all the rest of it. People carry on about how great he is because he built some buildings. I'd take a SB trophy and a seat in the Metrodome with the team still practicing at Winter Park any day of the week over this perpetually mediocre shit I am supposed to cheer for now. End of rant. =)
I would add Eric Bienemy to the list of Tomlin and Stefanski. He was on Childress' staff here, had the title of "Assistant Head Coach", same as Frazier, but when Childress was fired, the interim HC job went to Frazier, so 10 days later Bienemy took a job with U of Colorado. Now Bienemy is a rising star and likely a head coach in the NFL within a week of this season ending (probably not with the Vikings, sadly).
What makes Eric Bienemy so good all of a sudden? Overrated, and I say that liking the guy. Jets fans are bitching they want him and they already INTERVIEWED the guy for a HC job, lol. Andy Reid is the wizard of KC, not Bienemy. What Eric is is black and the media wants more minority hires so they are trumping this dude. That's just the truth. I hope Eric gets a shot but lets not act like he's a superstar. But having said that, neither are 50% of the white guys that get hired as HC, so why not Bienemy?
EB is calling the plays, a job made a shit ton easier when you have a future HOF in Mahomes running around making those plays work no matter what. But I do like Beiniemy for a HC opening because he is coming from a position of authority (play calling) on a successful team. so at least hes not a total reach like some teams make.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ comet52 said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ comet52 said:
@ Jor-El said:
I know Spielman's defenders will argue that he has reformed since 2017, because he has used a fairly high pick for an OL every year since then - Elflein, O'Neill, Bradury, Cleveland. OK, that's better. But I have doubts for 2 reasons. First, if you ignore a 5-player unit for more than half a decade, you won't fix it with one player a year. Second...it's still Spielman picking.
Spielman has defenders? Will the last Spielman defender out of the building please shut off the lights?
They thought 6th rounder Brandon Fusco was a hit and this had Spielman bragging in media interviews for several years about their brilliant discovery that you could build an oline with lower round guys. Meanwhile Fusco went downhill fast and the David Yankeys of the world didn't last.
But somehow Rick stuck to this fantasy with the exception of Kalil who was basically just the safe, consensus pick at the time, until he finally conceded to reality by drafting Pat Elflein in the 3rd. As lousy at that has turned out, Elf has still seen more of the field than just about any of Rick's back-of-the-draft nobodies ever did.
It's all just sad and long past time for Rick and Zim to go. But ownership has a penchant for doubling down on football failure. So we're saddled with them and Cousins awful contract and all the rest for who knows how long.
With covid knocking revenue down and Wilf on the hook for his new, mostly empty hotel, it's possible he isn't willing to jettison the pair and eat their freshly minted extensions, even if the idea somehow worms it's way past the layer of insulation that seemingly keeps all possible smart football moves from coming in contact with his brain.
Damn - I thought I was hostile to Spielman...
But yes there are people today still praising his drafting if you hunt around on this board just a bit. Fusco...yes I thought RS shipped out Schwartz a bit too rapidly to promote Brandon. But IMO Fusco illustrates another of our problems trying to manage our OL: the idea that linemen can be moved all over and play as well at one position as another. Fusco was a decent, probably league-average, player at RG. So the Vikings braintrust thought, "He can solve our problem at LG!" But Fusco sucked at the LG. Rather than move him back to RG, they waived him. Fusco promptly wrapped up his career with the 49ers and Falcons, starting and playing decently at - you guessed it - RG before his career was ended by injury. He wasn't a star lineman but the production he gave OTHER TEAMS at RG was better than what the Vikings have.
The Vikings under Spielman have moved offensive linemen around willy-nilly. Yes, you find the occasional Joe Berger who can be a jack of multiple positions (but master none), but a lot of players seem to need to settle in at one role or are naturally best at one. Fusco should have demonstrated that, but TJ Clemmings and Jeremiah Sirles and others should have as well.
I count releasing Fusco, Schwartz, and John Sullivan (who just needed more time to recover from injury) as more unfortunate personnel mistakes. I don't know if Spielman makes the final decision who to waive, but he's part of it.
I've felt Spielman has drafted ok, compared to other teams, but what the team does with the picks especially at OL is baffling. Does that fall on Rick? I don't know, he hires the coaches. They're the ones playing tinker toys with the line year in and year out.
I just feel at this point the team needs to clean house and start over. They should have done it last winter. How are the genius Wilf bros going to feel if Stefanski builds the Browns into a powerhouse. The dummies who bought the team saying "We want to be like the Giants" and now they say "We want to be like the Steelers." They're just living in fantasyland as usual with no clue. We're more like the Lions than either of those teams. They had Tomlin on their payroll and Childress showing what an ass he was in year one, he was a terrible idiot hire to begin with. But off went Tomlin to win a title with Pittsburgh. They had Stefanski on their payroll for years, will it turn out the same? Who knows.
It's not Spielman I loathe, it's Wilf. Rick is just a guy who works hard and knows where his bread is buttered. I think one thing fans don't realize as they savage Rick is, and this is my observation you could argue I'm wrong, but he really mostly does what Wilf and Zimmer want. He serves his masters well while preserving his position, he's a political creature to some extent.
Anyhow, Wilf has wasted 16 years of my football fandom on nonsense like the TOA, Chili, Les, sticking with Spielman and Zimmer past the expiration date, and all the rest of it. People carry on about how great he is because he built some buildings. I'd take a SB trophy and a seat in the Metrodome with the team still practicing at Winter Park any day of the week over this perpetually mediocre shit I am supposed to cheer for now. End of rant. =)
I would add Eric Bienemy to the list of Tomlin and Stefanski. He was on Childress' staff here, had the title of "Assistant Head Coach", same as Frazier, but when Childress was fired, the interim HC job went to Frazier, so 10 days later Bienemy took a job with U of Colorado. Now Bienemy is a rising star and likely a head coach in the NFL within a week of this season ending (probably not with the Vikings, sadly).
What makes Eric Bienemy so good all of a sudden? Overrated, and I say that liking the guy. Jets fans are bitching they want him and they already INTERVIEWED the guy for a HC job, lol. Andy Reid is the wizard of KC, not Bienemy. What Eric is is black and the media wants more minority hires so they are trumping this dude. That's just the truth. I hope Eric gets a shot but lets not act like he's a superstar. But having said that, neither are 50% of the white guys that get hired as HC, so why not Bienemy?
EB is calling the plays, a job made a shit ton easier when you have a future HOF in Mahomes running around making those plays work no matter what. But I do like Beiniemy for a HC opening because he is coming from a position of authority (play calling) on a successful team. so at least hes not a total reach like some teams make.
Agreed, jimmy. Its not that I don't want him to get a shot, he deserves it as much or more than some others that have been hired, but lets not pretend he's amazing.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ comet52 said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ comet52 said:
@ Jor-El said:
I know Spielman's defenders will argue that he has reformed since 2017, because he has used a fairly high pick for an OL every year since then - Elflein, O'Neill, Bradury, Cleveland. OK, that's better. But I have doubts for 2 reasons. First, if you ignore a 5-player unit for more than half a decade, you won't fix it with one player a year. Second...it's still Spielman picking.
Spielman has defenders? Will the last Spielman defender out of the building please shut off the lights?
They thought 6th rounder Brandon Fusco was a hit and this had Spielman bragging in media interviews for several years about their brilliant discovery that you could build an oline with lower round guys. Meanwhile Fusco went downhill fast and the David Yankeys of the world didn't last.
But somehow Rick stuck to this fantasy with the exception of Kalil who was basically just the safe, consensus pick at the time, until he finally conceded to reality by drafting Pat Elflein in the 3rd. As lousy at that has turned out, Elf has still seen more of the field than just about any of Rick's back-of-the-draft nobodies ever did.
It's all just sad and long past time for Rick and Zim to go. But ownership has a penchant for doubling down on football failure. So we're saddled with them and Cousins awful contract and all the rest for who knows how long.
With covid knocking revenue down and Wilf on the hook for his new, mostly empty hotel, it's possible he isn't willing to jettison the pair and eat their freshly minted extensions, even if the idea somehow worms it's way past the layer of insulation that seemingly keeps all possible smart football moves from coming in contact with his brain.
Damn - I thought I was hostile to Spielman...
But yes there are people today still praising his drafting if you hunt around on this board just a bit. Fusco...yes I thought RS shipped out Schwartz a bit too rapidly to promote Brandon. But IMO Fusco illustrates another of our problems trying to manage our OL: the idea that linemen can be moved all over and play as well at one position as another. Fusco was a decent, probably league-average, player at RG. So the Vikings braintrust thought, "He can solve our problem at LG!" But Fusco sucked at the LG. Rather than move him back to RG, they waived him. Fusco promptly wrapped up his career with the 49ers and Falcons, starting and playing decently at - you guessed it - RG before his career was ended by injury. He wasn't a star lineman but the production he gave OTHER TEAMS at RG was better than what the Vikings have.
The Vikings under Spielman have moved offensive linemen around willy-nilly. Yes, you find the occasional Joe Berger who can be a jack of multiple positions (but master none), but a lot of players seem to need to settle in at one role or are naturally best at one. Fusco should have demonstrated that, but TJ Clemmings and Jeremiah Sirles and others should have as well.
I count releasing Fusco, Schwartz, and John Sullivan (who just needed more time to recover from injury) as more unfortunate personnel mistakes. I don't know if Spielman makes the final decision who to waive, but he's part of it.
I've felt Spielman has drafted ok, compared to other teams, but what the team does with the picks especially at OL is baffling. Does that fall on Rick? I don't know, he hires the coaches. They're the ones playing tinker toys with the line year in and year out.
I just feel at this point the team needs to clean house and start over. They should have done it last winter. How are the genius Wilf bros going to feel if Stefanski builds the Browns into a powerhouse. The dummies who bought the team saying "We want to be like the Giants" and now they say "We want to be like the Steelers." They're just living in fantasyland as usual with no clue. We're more like the Lions than either of those teams. They had Tomlin on their payroll and Childress showing what an ass he was in year one, he was a terrible idiot hire to begin with. But off went Tomlin to win a title with Pittsburgh. They had Stefanski on their payroll for years, will it turn out the same? Who knows.
It's not Spielman I loathe, it's Wilf. Rick is just a guy who works hard and knows where his bread is buttered. I think one thing fans don't realize as they savage Rick is, and this is my observation you could argue I'm wrong, but he really mostly does what Wilf and Zimmer want. He serves his masters well while preserving his position, he's a political creature to some extent.
Anyhow, Wilf has wasted 16 years of my football fandom on nonsense like the TOA, Chili, Les, sticking with Spielman and Zimmer past the expiration date, and all the rest of it. People carry on about how great he is because he built some buildings. I'd take a SB trophy and a seat in the Metrodome with the team still practicing at Winter Park any day of the week over this perpetually mediocre shit I am supposed to cheer for now. End of rant. =)
I would add Eric Bienemy to the list of Tomlin and Stefanski. He was on Childress' staff here, had the title of "Assistant Head Coach", same as Frazier, but when Childress was fired, the interim HC job went to Frazier, so 10 days later Bienemy took a job with U of Colorado. Now Bienemy is a rising star and likely a head coach in the NFL within a week of this season ending (probably not with the Vikings, sadly).
What makes Eric Bienemy so good all of a sudden? Overrated, and I say that liking the guy. Jets fans are bitching they want him and they already INTERVIEWED the guy for a HC job, lol. Andy Reid is the wizard of KC, not Bienemy. What Eric is is black and the media wants more minority hires so they are trumping this dude. That's just the truth. I hope Eric gets a shot but lets not act like he's a superstar. But having said that, neither are 50% of the white guys that get hired as HC, so why not Bienemy?
EB is calling the plays, a job made a shit ton easier when you have a future HOF in Mahomes running around making those plays work no matter what. But I do like Beiniemy for a HC opening because he is coming from a position of authority (play calling) on a successful team. so at least hes not a total reach like some teams make.
Agreed, jimmy. Its not that I don't want him to get a shot, he deserves it as much or more than some others that have been hired, but lets not pretend he's amazing.
very few are and most of those "amazing" candidates end up being busts as NFL HCs anyway.
Sleeping with Bienemy has the pedigree of a good nfl player, was a successful coach with us and struck gold with KC. I have little doubt he would be a good HC candidate but if he was all that why woukd we not retain him? The simple answer is he was not as good as Stefanski in his time here, which as I said doesnt mean he cant be good, just not as good as the other guy at the time
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ comet52 said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ comet52 said:
@ Jor-El said:
I know Spielman's defenders will argue that he has reformed since 2017, because he has used a fairly high pick for an OL every year since then - Elflein, O'Neill, Bradury, Cleveland. OK, that's better. But I have doubts for 2 reasons. First, if you ignore a 5-player unit for more than half a decade, you won't fix it with one player a year. Second...it's still Spielman picking.
Spielman has defenders? Will the last Spielman defender out of the building please shut off the lights?
They thought 6th rounder Brandon Fusco was a hit and this had Spielman bragging in media interviews for several years about their brilliant discovery that you could build an oline with lower round guys. Meanwhile Fusco went downhill fast and the David Yankeys of the world didn't last.
But somehow Rick stuck to this fantasy with the exception of Kalil who was basically just the safe, consensus pick at the time, until he finally conceded to reality by drafting Pat Elflein in the 3rd. As lousy at that has turned out, Elf has still seen more of the field than just about any of Rick's back-of-the-draft nobodies ever did.
It's all just sad and long past time for Rick and Zim to go. But ownership has a penchant for doubling down on football failure. So we're saddled with them and Cousins awful contract and all the rest for who knows how long.
With covid knocking revenue down and Wilf on the hook for his new, mostly empty hotel, it's possible he isn't willing to jettison the pair and eat their freshly minted extensions, even if the idea somehow worms it's way past the layer of insulation that seemingly keeps all possible smart football moves from coming in contact with his brain.
Damn - I thought I was hostile to Spielman...
But yes there are people today still praising his drafting if you hunt around on this board just a bit. Fusco...yes I thought RS shipped out Schwartz a bit too rapidly to promote Brandon. But IMO Fusco illustrates another of our problems trying to manage our OL: the idea that linemen can be moved all over and play as well at one position as another. Fusco was a decent, probably league-average, player at RG. So the Vikings braintrust thought, "He can solve our problem at LG!" But Fusco sucked at the LG. Rather than move him back to RG, they waived him. Fusco promptly wrapped up his career with the 49ers and Falcons, starting and playing decently at - you guessed it - RG before his career was ended by injury. He wasn't a star lineman but the production he gave OTHER TEAMS at RG was better than what the Vikings have.
The Vikings under Spielman have moved offensive linemen around willy-nilly. Yes, you find the occasional Joe Berger who can be a jack of multiple positions (but master none), but a lot of players seem to need to settle in at one role or are naturally best at one. Fusco should have demonstrated that, but TJ Clemmings and Jeremiah Sirles and others should have as well.
I count releasing Fusco, Schwartz, and John Sullivan (who just needed more time to recover from injury) as more unfortunate personnel mistakes. I don't know if Spielman makes the final decision who to waive, but he's part of it.
I've felt Spielman has drafted ok, compared to other teams, but what the team does with the picks especially at OL is baffling. Does that fall on Rick? I don't know, he hires the coaches. They're the ones playing tinker toys with the line year in and year out.
I just feel at this point the team needs to clean house and start over. They should have done it last winter. How are the genius Wilf bros going to feel if Stefanski builds the Browns into a powerhouse. The dummies who bought the team saying "We want to be like the Giants" and now they say "We want to be like the Steelers." They're just living in fantasyland as usual with no clue. We're more like the Lions than either of those teams. They had Tomlin on their payroll and Childress showing what an ass he was in year one, he was a terrible idiot hire to begin with. But off went Tomlin to win a title with Pittsburgh. They had Stefanski on their payroll for years, will it turn out the same? Who knows.
It's not Spielman I loathe, it's Wilf. Rick is just a guy who works hard and knows where his bread is buttered. I think one thing fans don't realize as they savage Rick is, and this is my observation you could argue I'm wrong, but he really mostly does what Wilf and Zimmer want. He serves his masters well while preserving his position, he's a political creature to some extent.
Anyhow, Wilf has wasted 16 years of my football fandom on nonsense like the TOA, Chili, Les, sticking with Spielman and Zimmer past the expiration date, and all the rest of it. People carry on about how great he is because he built some buildings. I'd take a SB trophy and a seat in the Metrodome with the team still practicing at Winter Park any day of the week over this perpetually mediocre shit I am supposed to cheer for now. End of rant. =)
I would add Eric Bienemy to the list of Tomlin and Stefanski. He was on Childress' staff here, had the title of "Assistant Head Coach", same as Frazier, but when Childress was fired, the interim HC job went to Frazier, so 10 days later Bienemy took a job with U of Colorado. Now Bienemy is a rising star and likely a head coach in the NFL within a week of this season ending (probably not with the Vikings, sadly).
What makes Eric Bienemy so good all of a sudden? Overrated, and I say that liking the guy. Jets fans are bitching they want him and they already INTERVIEWED the guy for a HC job, lol. Andy Reid is the wizard of KC, not Bienemy. What Eric is is black and the media wants more minority hires so they are trumping this dude. That's just the truth. I hope Eric gets a shot but lets not act like he's a superstar. But having said that, neither are 50% of the white guys that get hired as HC, so why not Bienemy?
To be clear, my point was that in 2010 we had a choice between promoting Frazier or Bienemy, and IMO we made a mistake. I never said he was a superstar - I said he was better than Les Frazier. That's not too high of a bar.
Maybe I should have just said that IF Bienemy becomes a successful head coach, he will be another that we let get away.
The question is when? Is it because Samia looked better last week? Elflein is probably still 2 weeks away from returning.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
The question is when? Is it because Samia looked better last week? Elflein is probably still 2 weeks away from returning.
You can't pull Samia after last week's performance. With him there's a very real learning curve upside. Not so Dozier. That's where Cleveland will go when he's ready.
If Samia can put another couple of games together like Houston, Elflein may not get his job back.
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