Quote: @"purplefaithful" said:
There is no such thing as herd immunity - at least proven herd immunity.
There is no science (that I am aware of) that says once you get Covid-19 you wont get it again. Let aloner how long the presences of anti-bodies means any kind of resistance.
then we shouldn't even bother looking for a vaccine?
Quote: @"purplefaithful" said:
@"greediron" said:
What to make of the uptick in the fudging of numbers. Looks like Florida and Ohio both have some questions that need answering. And don't forget, the uptick in cases is just that, cases. Not deaths, not hospitalizations, but positive cases. And if the test numbers aren't accurate, even that is skewed. Dramatic increase in testing is going to lead to more cases overall and a percentage is going to be positive. But if they aren't leading to hospitalization, what is the issue. More positives mean we are approaching herd immunity.
Ask the Houston Medical community if they aren't seeing an uptick in hospitalizations....Or the 39 counties in the state of Tx that are ordering more cooled storage trailers for...Not ice cubes.
That said, we always need to scrutinize the #'s and look at the big pix. I just hope the data remains available to the public and isn't vaulted away by the Feds until the election is over.
I would also ask if Houston Medical counts covid hospitalizations as only those admitted for covid or does it include those in the hospital that test positive for covid and are say, having a baby and healthy.
Also, looking at the Ohio issue, if that person is in the hospital for multiple days, does each test count as a separate case?
Yeah, when there is money involved, corruption finds its way in. And number are easily manipulated.
Quote: @"greediron" said:
@"purplefaithful" said:
There is no such thing as herd immunity - at least proven herd immunity.
There is no science (that I am aware of) that says once you get Covid-19 you wont get it again. Let aloner how long the presences of anti-bodies means any kind of resistance.
then we shouldn't even bother looking for a vaccine?
im not sure I follow here, in the absence of herd immunity a vaccine is likely the only hope for things to return to some sort of pre covid normal.
Quote: @"JimmyinSD" said:
@"greediron" said:
@"purplefaithful" said:
There is no such thing as herd immunity - at least proven herd immunity.
There is no science (that I am aware of) that says once you get Covid-19 you wont get it again. Let aloner how long the presences of anti-bodies means any kind of resistance.
then we shouldn't even bother looking for a vaccine?
im not sure I follow here, in the absence of herd immunity a vaccine is likely the only hope for things to return to some sort of pre covid normal.
vaccines are all about building that herd immunity. So if there is no such thing, why bother?
And no, vaccine isn't the only hope for a return to normal, that is just what some what us to believe.
Quote: @"JimmyinSD" said:
@"greediron" said:
@"purplefaithful" said:
There is no such thing as herd immunity - at least proven herd immunity.
There is no science (that I am aware of) that says once you get Covid-19 you wont get it again. Let aloner how long the presences of anti-bodies means any kind of resistance.
then we shouldn't even bother looking for a vaccine?
im not sure I follow here, in the absence of herd immunity a vaccine is likely the only hope for things to return to some sort of pre covid normal.
Here's what our friends at the Mayo have to say...Greed is correct in that there are two paths to herd immunity; naturally occurring and vaccine.
@ PF is correct in that there is no proven, natural heard immunity to Covid-19.
The Mayo viewpoint further extrapolates on the potential risk/cost of the US attempting to reach heard immunity via natural transmission:
Herd immunity and COVID-19 (coronavirus): What you need to know
Understand what's known about herd immunity and what it means for coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19).Curious as to whether herd immunity against the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) might slow the spread of the disease? Understand how herd immunity works and what experts are saying about its potential impact on the COVID-19 pandemic.
Why is herd immunity important?Herd immunity occurs when a large portion of a community (the herd) becomes immune to a disease, making the spread of disease from person to person unlikely. As a result, the whole community becomes protected — not just those who are immune.
Often, a percentage of the population must be capable of getting a disease in order for it to spread. This is called a threshold proportion. If the proportion of the population that is immune to the disease is greater than this threshold, the spread of the disease will decline. This is known as the herd immunity threshold.
What percentage of a community needs to be immune in order to achieve herd immunity? It varies from disease to disease. The more contagious a disease is, the greater the proportion of the population that needs to be immune to the disease to stop its spread. For example, the measles is a highly contagious illness. It's estimated that 94% of the population must be immune to interrupt the chain of transmission.
How is herd immunity achieved?There are two paths to herd immunity for COVID-19 — vaccines and infection.
VaccinesA vaccine for the virus that causes COVID-19 would be an ideal approach to achieving herd immunity. Vaccines create immunity without causing illness or resulting complications. Herd immunity makes it possible to protect the population from a disease, including those who can't be vaccinated, such as newborns or those who have compromised immune systems. Using the concept of herd immunity, vaccines have successfully controlled deadly contagious diseases such as smallpox, polio, diphtheria, rubella and many others.
Reaching herd immunity through vaccination sometimes has drawbacks, though. Protection from some vaccines can wane over time, requiring revaccination. Sometimes people don't get all of the shots that they need to be completely protected from a disease.
In addition, some people may object to vaccines because of religious objections, fears about the possible risks or skepticism about the benefits. People who object to vaccines often live in the same neighborhoods or attend the same religious services or schools. If the proportion of vaccinated people in a community falls below the herd immunity threshold, exposure to a contagious disease could result in the disease quickly spreading. Measles has recently resurged in several parts of the world with relatively low vaccination rates, including the United States. Opposition to vaccines can pose a real challenge to herd immunity.
Natural infectionHerd immunity can also be reached when a sufficient number of people in the population have recovered from a disease and have developed antibodies against future infection. For example, those who survived the 1918 flu (influenza) pandemic were later immune to infection with the H1N1 flu, a subtype of influenza A. During the 2009-10 flu season, H1N1 caused the respiratory infection in humans that was commonly referred to as swine flu.
However, there are some major problems with relying on community infection to create herd immunity to the virus that causes COVID-19. First, it isn't yet clear if infection with the COVID-19 virus makes a person immune to future infection.
Research suggests that after infection with some coronaviruses, reinfection with the same virus — though usually mild and only happening in a fraction of people — is possible after a period of months or years. Further research is needed to determine the protective effect of antibodies to the virus in those who have been infected.
Even if infection with the COVID-19 virus creates long-lasting immunity, a large number of people would have to become infected to reach the herd immunity threshold. Experts estimate that in the U.S., 70% of the population — more than 200 million people — would have to recover from COVID-19 to halt the epidemic. If many people become sick with COVID-19 at once, the health care system could quickly become overwhelmed. This amount of infection could also lead to serious complications and millions of deaths, especially among older people and those who have chronic conditions.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-cond...t-20486808
Quote: @"greediron" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"greediron" said:
@"purplefaithful" said:
There is no such thing as herd immunity - at least proven herd immunity.
There is no science (that I am aware of) that says once you get Covid-19 you wont get it again. Let aloner how long the presences of anti-bodies means any kind of resistance.
then we shouldn't even bother looking for a vaccine?
im not sure I follow here, in the absence of herd immunity a vaccine is likely the only hope for things to return to some sort of pre covid normal.
vaccines are all about building that herd immunity. So if there is no such thing, why bother?
And no, vaccine isn't the only hope for a return to normal, that is just what some what us to believe.
why is it one extreme or the other with the virus with most people? this thing is real, and the dead bodies are real, life pre covid is gone unless we come up with a vaccine or we are ready to accept some pretty high death numbers if we want to pretend that its not for real. I agree that its been politicized and a lot of the shit being thrown around is just a ploy to win an election, but thats just my opinion.
as far as herd immunity and a vaccine, if herd immunity was possible we wouldnt need vaccines, enough people would get it and build antibodies that a vaccine wouldnt be necessary, once enough of the herd had those antibodies developed those that do contract it wouldnt likely spread it to enough of the herd to even make it a concern.
Quote: @"purplefaithful" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"greediron" said:
@"purplefaithful" said:
There is no such thing as herd immunity - at least proven herd immunity.
There is no science (that I am aware of) that says once you get Covid-19 you wont get it again. Let aloner how long the presences of anti-bodies means any kind of resistance.
then we shouldn't even bother looking for a vaccine?
im not sure I follow here, in the absence of herd immunity a vaccine is likely the only hope for things to return to some sort of pre covid normal.
Here's what our friends at the Mayo have to say...Greed is correct in that there are two paths to herd immunity; naturally occurring and vaccine.
@ PF is correct in that there is no proven, natural heard immunity to Covid-19. The Mayo viewpoint further extrapolates on the potential risk/cost of the US reaching herd immunity:
Herd immunity and COVID-19 (coronavirus): What you need to know
Understand what's known about herd immunity and what it means for coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19).Curious as to whether herd immunity against the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) might slow the spread of the disease? Understand how herd immunity works and what experts are saying about its potential impact on the COVID-19 pandemic.
Why is herd immunity important?Herd immunity occurs when a large portion of a community (the herd) becomes immune to a disease, making the spread of disease from person to person unlikely. As a result, the whole community becomes protected — not just those who are immune.
Often, a percentage of the population must be capable of getting a disease in order for it to spread. This is called a threshold proportion. If the proportion of the population that is immune to the disease is greater than this threshold, the spread of the disease will decline. This is known as the herd immunity threshold.
What percentage of a community needs to be immune in order to achieve herd immunity? It varies from disease to disease. The more contagious a disease is, the greater the proportion of the population that needs to be immune to the disease to stop its spread. For example, the measles is a highly contagious illness. It's estimated that 94% of the population must be immune to interrupt the chain of transmission.
How is herd immunity achieved?There are two paths to herd immunity for COVID-19 — vaccines and infection.
VaccinesA vaccine for the virus that causes COVID-19 would be an ideal approach to achieving herd immunity. Vaccines create immunity without causing illness or resulting complications. Herd immunity makes it possible to protect the population from a disease, including those who can't be vaccinated, such as newborns or those who have compromised immune systems. Using the concept of herd immunity, vaccines have successfully controlled deadly contagious diseases such as smallpox, polio, diphtheria, rubella and many others.
Reaching herd immunity through vaccination sometimes has drawbacks, though. Protection from some vaccines can wane over time, requiring revaccination. Sometimes people don't get all of the shots that they need to be completely protected from a disease.
In addition, some people may object to vaccines because of religious objections, fears about the possible risks or skepticism about the benefits. People who object to vaccines often live in the same neighborhoods or attend the same religious services or schools. If the proportion of vaccinated people in a community falls below the herd immunity threshold, exposure to a contagious disease could result in the disease quickly spreading. Measles has recently resurged in several parts of the world with relatively low vaccination rates, including the United States. Opposition to vaccines can pose a real challenge to herd immunity.
Natural infectionHerd immunity can also be reached when a sufficient number of people in the population have recovered from a disease and have developed antibodies against future infection. For example, those who survived the 1918 flu (influenza) pandemic were later immune to infection with the H1N1 flu, a subtype of influenza A. During the 2009-10 flu season, H1N1 caused the respiratory infection in humans that was commonly referred to as swine flu.
However, there are some major problems with relying on community infection to create herd immunity to the virus that causes COVID-19. First, it isn't yet clear if infection with the COVID-19 virus makes a person immune to future infection.
Research suggests that after infection with some coronaviruses, reinfection with the same virus — though usually mild and only happening in a fraction of people — is possible after a period of months or years. Further research is needed to determine the protective effect of antibodies to the virus in those who have been infected.
Even if infection with the COVID-19 virus creates long-lasting immunity, a large number of people would have to become infected to reach the herd immunity threshold. Experts estimate that in the U.S., 70% of the population — more than 200 million people — would have to recover from COVID-19 to halt the epidemic. If many people become sick with COVID-19 at once, the health care system could quickly become overwhelmed. This amount of infection could also lead to serious complications and millions of deaths, especially among older people and those who have chronic conditions.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-cond...t-20486808
herd immunity, as has been discussed since this came to light last winter, was about letting enough people get it to take advantage of natural antibody development and lowering the number of potential carriers in a given "herd", ie: natural
a vaccinated immunity level has not been worth discussing since... there is no known vaccine, once one is developed, and the side effects are known, then we can talk about how to get it distributed to enough willing people to create the other type in our herd.
Quote: @"JimmyinSD" said:
@"greediron" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"greediron" said:
@"purplefaithful" said:
There is no such thing as herd immunity - at least proven herd immunity.
There is no science (that I am aware of) that says once you get Covid-19 you wont get it again. Let aloner how long the presences of anti-bodies means any kind of resistance.
then we shouldn't even bother looking for a vaccine?
im not sure I follow here, in the absence of herd immunity a vaccine is likely the only hope for things to return to some sort of pre covid normal.
vaccines are all about building that herd immunity. So if there is no such thing, why bother?
And no, vaccine isn't the only hope for a return to normal, that is just what some what us to believe.
why is it one extreme or the other with the virus with most people? this thing is real, and the dead bodies are real, life pre covid is gone unless we come up with a vaccine or we are ready to accept some pretty high death numbers if we want to pretend that its not for real. I agree that its been politicized and a lot of the shit being thrown around is just a ploy to win an election, but thats just my opinion.
as far as herd immunity and a vaccine, if herd immunity was possible we wouldnt need vaccines, enough people would get it and build antibodies that a vaccine wouldnt be necessary, once enough of the herd had those antibodies developed those that do contract it wouldnt likely spread it to enough of the herd to even make it a concern.
The annual flu strains have vaccines and still pile up a serious body count each year according to the CDC. And like covid, usually these numbers include a large portion of people with co-morbidities.
So tell me why this respiratory disease is any different? I can think of one reason, Covid doesn't affect the very young like the flu does. Herd immunity is possible, we are seeing it happen right now. As the younger crowd gets covid, the deaths are not piling up. hospitalizations are not overwhelming by any stretch. So, if we cut the crap and live life, we are likely going to see this reach herd immunity soon. Or we can pretend that singing in church is dangerous, but standing in line at walmart isn't. Or at least it wasn't for the last 4 months, but now it is.
Quote: @"greediron" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"greediron" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"greediron" said:
@"purplefaithful" said:
There is no such thing as herd immunity - at least proven herd immunity.
There is no science (that I am aware of) that says once you get Covid-19 you wont get it again. Let aloner how long the presences of anti-bodies means any kind of resistance.
then we shouldn't even bother looking for a vaccine?
im not sure I follow here, in the absence of herd immunity a vaccine is likely the only hope for things to return to some sort of pre covid normal.
vaccines are all about building that herd immunity. So if there is no such thing, why bother?
And no, vaccine isn't the only hope for a return to normal, that is just what some what us to believe.
why is it one extreme or the other with the virus with most people? this thing is real, and the dead bodies are real, life pre covid is gone unless we come up with a vaccine or we are ready to accept some pretty high death numbers if we want to pretend that its not for real. I agree that its been politicized and a lot of the shit being thrown around is just a ploy to win an election, but thats just my opinion.
as far as herd immunity and a vaccine, if herd immunity was possible we wouldnt need vaccines, enough people would get it and build antibodies that a vaccine wouldnt be necessary, once enough of the herd had those antibodies developed those that do contract it wouldnt likely spread it to enough of the herd to even make it a concern.
The annual flu strains have vaccines and still pile up a serious body count each year according to the CDC. And like covid, usually these numbers include a large portion of people with co-morbidities.
So tell me why this respiratory disease is any different? I can think of one reason, Covid doesn't affect the very young like the flu does. Herd immunity is possible, we are seeing it happen right now. As the younger crowd gets covid, the deaths are not piling up. hospitalizations are not overwhelming by any stretch. So, if we cut the crap and live life, we are likely going to see this reach herd immunity soon. Or we can pretend that singing in church is dangerous, but standing in line at walmart isn't. Or at least it wasn't for the last 4 months, but now it is.
Well the hypocrisy of regulation and recommendation certainly makes it hard to take anybody serious on this thing, like people protesting the regulations, evil, people protesting and burning down cities claiming they were doing it in the name of social justice....no big deal. The list goes on. One of my favorites is fauci taking his mask off as soon as the press conference is over and standing around the briefing room shooting the shit with people, I'm guessing that will be the next leak that some people want investigated.
![[Image: air-conditioning-contributing-to-spread-...C531&ssl=1]](https://i0.wp.com/politicallyincorrecthumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/air-conditioning-contributing-to-spread-of-covid-19-bullshit-masks-protect.jpg?resize=480%2C531&ssl=1)
this kind of stuff, how does a cloth mask help but central air is a problem? also, where were the concerns when it was heating systems in the norther climates in the winter time?
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