Quote: @Kentis said:
@ suncoastvike said:
My bottom line on this is like Maroon says. Just pay him this year. Don't have to extend him. Play out the deal get a few million somewhere else. We are going to be right at the cap regardless. I know you'd like a few million to play with in case. I still see him as our 3rd best receiving option. Makes the 3rd best pay. Seems to fit. Those just in case scenarios could well be one of those other 2 get hurt. Maybe this new TE is much like Rudy was early in his career till he learned what needs to be done to make it through 16 games. If we are counting on Cook and the new guy. These a BIG ? to me if... Why must we sacrifice one of our leaders on offense while leaving the defense untouchable.
Maybe this team needs to trust in what leadership can mean.
He may not even show up w/o any guaranteed salary, an injury would be catastrophic to him...
Well don't you just know how to make a guy feel better...lol.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
as far as the Treadwell comparison... lot less money for Treadwell, and not a huge difference in how they are used and their production based on opportunities. Rudy is not a top tier offensive threat at TE so really its not really about what he has done, its how much more has he done than a guy that would work for half his salary. I dont see a huge drop off without him on the field. Maybe I am wrong. I am sure we will find out.
Honestly, with Diggs and AT being the 1 and 2 on every play, that really doesnt leave a lot of chances for a #3 receiver or a TE, especially with Cook out of the back field.
Jimmy, your point is well taken. I was kinda stating the same in the post I made on the other Rudy thread...IF...and it's a big IF...we get a reliable 3rd receiver option with the other WR's we currently have and/or drafted, do we miss Rudy's receiving prowess as an essential piece of the offense? If, as others have pointed out, Rudy's biggest contribution with the last several O-lines is as a blocker, how much is that blockling worth? Maybe the OL issues are in the past and he'll be a weapon again. Maybe.
I like him and wish he could stay, but his comments tell me he's not much in a negotiating frame of mind. Can the Vikings afford to be that accommodating?
This whole thing is not about what he has done. It is more then likely about what he will do and I am willing to bet the sticking point is guaranteed money.
7 to 8 mil is probably fair but maybe the Vikings want him to do like Hunter and take a bit less. Maybe he will if they guarantee more?
This whole thing feels like a "meh".
If he stays, fine. If he leaves, fine.
They will figure it out if he is not here.
If they plan on running more then he may not see as many targets anyway and his production could go down.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ pumpf said:
I'd like to keep Rudy around. But I really don't see what he offers that we can't get from Man-Bun (if he had more opportunities). Granted, Morgan might not have the hands that Rudy has, but he's just as "quick" (relative term) and equal (in ability) in YAC. But Rudy is a good guy and has been pretty reliable. If they can't lock him down to an extension, then I'd prefer to let it all play out next season... and see what kind of FA offers he gets. I don't think it will be in the same range as he's being paid now. So... maybe... we can re-sign him in 2020 for a lower number?
Really? Morgan has been targeted 19 times in the past three seasons - TOTAL, not per year. Rudolph has been targeted 295 in the same period. So if Morgan looked effective on one of his 16 career catches, it's probably because opposing teams ignore him. His testing numbers never suggested even moderate quickness. Morgan is an excellent blocker and valuable in that role, but If he is targeted 5 times a game like Rudolph, I think he will look like an offensive lineman trying to play TE.
I don't know what targets have to do with anything. Yeah, Rudy's gotten more targets. And yet, he gets only 1 more yard per reception. He also has a catch rate of 66%, whereas Morgan has a catch rate of 84%. Your OPINION is that- if Morgan was targeted more- he would be exposed. Well, you're certainly entitled to that opinion, but it's not a fact.
Well targets really have a lot to do with things pumpf---heck morgan has been targeted so little over is tenure that teams forget he's on the field so few contested plays. whereas Rudy has to block at home fight off the DE or Lb and then find a seam to sit down in and get his head around to find the ball all in a couple of seconds Oh and by the way over the same time period his % is over 69 not 66
Quote: @Akvike said:
Well targets really have a lot to do with things pumpf---heck morgan has been targeted so little over is tenure that teams forget he's on the field so few contested plays. whereas Rudy has to block at home fight off the DE or Lb and then find a seam to sit down in and get his head around to find the ball all in a couple of seconds Oh and by the way over the same time period his % is over 69 not 66
I'm saying that it has little to do with the ability of each. Do you know how Morgan would do if he had the number of targets that Rudy had? I don't. But I do know that he is a better blocker. As for "over the same time period", that seems a little bit like cherry picking. I went with career numbers. If you want to make the argument that one of them played with a hall of fame QB and the other had Spergeon Wynn: well, then I might consider the difference worth considering. Even so, we're talking about 3% ("cherry-picked" stats vs. his career numbers) vs. Morgan's... and Morgan's is still higher- by double digits.
I'm not saying that Morgan IS better. What I'm saying is that- according to my eye-test (and the stats), there's no substantial difference. Yes, Rudy got more targets. But Treadwell got more targets than Thielen did (at the same point in their careers); does that mean that Treadwell is better?
Rudolph has no money that is guaranteed IIRC. His cap hit would be zero if cut. This is his way of saying pay me or cut me and let me go to the Patriots lol.
Quote: @pumpf said:
@ Akvike said:
Well targets really have a lot to do with things pumpf---heck morgan has been targeted so little over is tenure that teams forget he's on the field so few contested plays. whereas Rudy has to block at home fight off the DE or Lb and then find a seam to sit down in and get his head around to find the ball all in a couple of seconds Oh and by the way over the same time period his % is over 69 not 66
I'm saying that it has little to do with the ability of each. Do you know how Morgan would do if he had the number of targets that Rudy had? I don't. But I do know that he is a better blocker. As for "over the same time period", that seems a little bit like cherry picking. I went with career numbers. If you want to make the argument that one of them played with a hall of fame QB and the other had Spergeon Wynn: well, then I might consider the difference worth considering. Even so, we're talking about 3% ("cherry-picked" stats vs. his career numbers) vs. Morgan's... and Morgan's is still higher- by double digits.
I'm not saying that Morgan IS better. What I'm saying is that- according to my eye-test (and the stats), there's no substantial difference. Yes, Rudy got more targets. But Treadwell got more targets than Thielen did (at the same point in their careers); does that mean that Treadwell is better?
I think Morgan has parts of his game that make him better, and Rudy has parts of his game that are better, but neither are a complete TE, and neither are elite offensive weapons, so neither should get paid top dollar at that position. There is room for Rudy on this roster, but he has to be a team guy to fit imo.
Quote: @pumpf said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ pumpf said:
I'd like to keep Rudy around. But I really don't see what he offers that we can't get from Man-Bun (if he had more opportunities). Granted, Morgan might not have the hands that Rudy has, but he's just as "quick" (relative term) and equal (in ability) in YAC. But Rudy is a good guy and has been pretty reliable. If they can't lock him down to an extension, then I'd prefer to let it all play out next season... and see what kind of FA offers he gets. I don't think it will be in the same range as he's being paid now. So... maybe... we can re-sign him in 2020 for a lower number?
Really? Morgan has been targeted 19 times in the past three seasons - TOTAL, not per year. Rudolph has been targeted 295 in the same period. So if Morgan looked effective on one of his 16 career catches, it's probably because opposing teams ignore him. His testing numbers never suggested even moderate quickness. Morgan is an excellent blocker and valuable in that role, but If he is targeted 5 times a game like Rudolph, I think he will look like an offensive lineman trying to play TE.
I don't know what targets have to do with anything. Yeah, Rudy's gotten more targets. And yet, he gets only 1 more yard per reception. He also has a catch rate of 66%, whereas Morgan has a catch rate of 84%. Your OPINION is that- if Morgan was targeted more- he would be exposed. Well, you're certainly entitled to that opinion, but it's not a fact.
The # of targets Morgan has received is important because it is ABSURDLY TINY - roughly one pass directed at him every 3 games. This generates two pieces of data:
1. Morgan's sample size as a receiver in the NFL is so small that you can't legitimately project it to a larger quantity. If he dropped his next two passes and caught the third but was tackled for a loss, his catch rate and YPC are skewed ridiculously. Or, just take out his 23 yard career-long catch and he is now almost 3 YPC behind Rudolph.
2. Why haven't the Vikings thrown to him more? Especially if he is equal to Rudolph in quickness and YAC ability. The team has been trying to supplement (if not replace) Rudolph for several years: Mycole Pruitt, Bucky Hodges, Tyler Conklin, now Irv Smith...in fact, they have drafted a pass-catching TE prospect EVERY SEASON MORGAN HAS BEEN ON THIS TEAM. If he is some untapped gem of a receiving threat, why keep trying to find someone ELSE who can catch? Why not throw to him more than 6 times a season??
KR rules out pay cut: "I'm too young for that"To be fair Rudy is talking to Sid who has 70 yrs on him...  B)
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