Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ FSUVike said:
I have a problem with the whole "Defense isn't the problem" narrative.
Why? Smith, Rhodes, Waynes, Hughes, Alexander, Barr, Kendricks. That's 7 first or second round picks. And Griff and Hunter were 3rd round picks. Plus FA signings like Joseph and Richardson.
Tons of Draft Capital and Coin to field a Unit that is not taking games over ala the Bears. And Chicago apparently didn't get the memo that the League legislated Defense out of the game.
No pass from me. The Team pushed the majority of their chips into the pile betting on a great Defense that could maybe be Elite/All Time. The results have been anything but that. And that rests solely on Mike Zimmer's shoulders.
Who on that D is playing at an All Pro Level besides Hunter? Lotta big names that are imo underperforming.
In years like these I always wrestle with how much of that is the scheme/coach vs players?
Harry is one of the best I'm the league. And the corners are doing great all things considered at most tmes.
I can't say it's completely surprising to me that we are struggling on O the way we are. Our O-line coach passes away right at the cusp of the new season. Our O-line has once again sustained some big injuries. We have a new O coordinator, and a new QB. Our starting RB is coming off a serious injury and has missed most of the season to this point. Simply put, the O hasn't come together yet.
...BUT, as a Vikings fan, I can acknowledge the above and still be pissed because every year there's something, right?? Yes, for many other teams in the league there's also SOMETHING, but for the Vikings it truly amazes me how they disappoint us in absolutely the most excruciating ways. If I could say that, even back in the 60s or something, we'd won a SB it wouldn't sting as much. But we haven't. We come close, there's a HUUUUGGE tease....but we fall short, and most often in terrible, terrible ways. As a fan, it gets harder and harder each year to keep watching because of these failures. Are we so different from the Browns? They fail colossally. We fail excruciatingly. Both are fails. Both kill the fans.
Oh, and P.S.--Are there any others who are takers on a Teddy rebirth and explosion in New Orleans??? It is a very REAL fear of mine. I hear Payton LOVES Teddy. Anybody think he's going to take over for Brees next year if, say, they win the SB and Brees decides to retire?? Granted, he may not be ready to retire, but what a kick in the collective nuts of Vikings fans it would be if Teddy ends up leading that team to glory for the next decade....
...okay, it's all a big wowza of a scenario, but it seems perfectly suited for a VIKINGS FAIL scenario....doesn't it???
Edit: BTW, I pray Teddy does have that kind of success but I hope it will be with another team, like perhaps the Jags or Bucs. Teddy and Carson Wentz are both my guys for very personal and obvious reasons...but they are also members of 2 of my most hated teams. It's quite the conundrum.
You hit some good points PG. Losing Sparano was huge. And players are not robots, they feel that. It's a lot of change and adjustment. I still wonder how Dalvin is doing. There was the knee injury and then the hammy. It is a painful process with the OL but it still sucks. But the OL is the foundation. We have weapons but we need a solid OL. I am not sold on the new OC. Play calling is leaving a lot to be desired. And some are saying he is learning on the job. I am waiting for the creativity. But part of that comes back to the OL.
And regardless of colossally or excruciatingly, failing sucks. And the defense is talented but even so, there is work to do. Both sides of the ball are struggling. I do not understand why corners are playing so far off. I get that they don't want to be burned deep but teams are able to sustain drives and the defense gets gassed. Teams with good OL's also prevent teams from generating a lot of pass rush. I know some of it was impacted by Griffen's absence but it was a nice surprise to see Weatherly shine.
I can totally see Teddy shining bright there. That would be like a dagger to the heart. Not because of anything against Teddy. I have tremendous love for him. But because it's the Saints and I still hate them. I seriously think that they need to seriously scout OL and seriously invest. The window is open but it will shut quickly without OL. Depth and starters are needed.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ FSUVike said:
I have a problem with the whole "Defense isn't the problem" narrative.
Why? Smith, Rhodes, Waynes, Hughes, Alexander, Barr, Kendricks. That's 7 first or second round picks. And Griff and Hunter were 3rd round picks. Plus FA signings like Joseph and Richardson.
Tons of Draft Capital and Coin to field a Unit that is not taking games over ala the Bears. And Chicago apparently didn't get the memo that the League legislated Defense out of the game.
No pass from me. The Team pushed the majority of their chips into the pile betting on a great Defense that could maybe be Elite/All Time. The results have been anything but that. And that rests solely on Mike Zimmer's shoulders.
Who on that D is playing at an All Pro Level besides Hunter? Lotta big names that are imo underperforming.
In years like these I always wrestle with how much of that is the scheme/coach vs players?
Harry is one of the best I'm the league. And the corners are doing great all things considered at most tmes.
My eyes tell me that even Harry is showing some wear and tear this year compared to last year when he was flying to the ball. Now he's trying to catch people from behind. How many safety blitz's has he gotten to the QB this year? Same goes for Rhodes. That "Rhodes closed" sign has been thrown in the ditch. (...and I thought he he looked slower before the ankle injury, so I'm not blaming his performance solely on injury). It says something when Waynes looks to be the most physical DB on the team this year. I think the Hughes injury was a huge blow, in that he was fresh, playing faster, and could have given Rhodes and others some much needed rest.
Still no idea why we signed Iloka given what how he's being used.
Our LBer's besides Kendricks were non-existent against the Bears, and the other high octane offensive teams. (L.A., N.O.).
Quote: @Vikergirl said:
You hit some good points PG. Losing Sparano was huge. And players are not robots, they feel that. It's a lot of change and adjustment. I still wonder how Dalvin is doing. There was the knee injury and then the hammy. It is a painful process with the OL but it still sucks. But the OL is the foundation. We have weapons but we need a solid OL. I am not sold on the new OC. Play calling is leaving a lot to be desired. And some are saying he is learning on the job. I am waiting for the creativity. But part of that comes back to the OL.
And regardless of colossally or excruciatingly, failing sucks. And the defense is talented but even so, there is work to do. Both sides of the ball are struggling. I do not understand why corners are playing so far off. I get that they don't want to be burned deep but teams are able to sustain drives and the defense gets gassed. Teams with good OL's also prevent teams from generating a lot of pass rush. I know some of it was impacted by Griffen's absence but it was a nice surprise to see Weatherly shine.
I can totally see Teddy shining bright there. That would be like a dagger to the heart. Not because of anything against Teddy. I have tremendous love for him. But because it's the Saints and I still hate them. I seriously think that they need to seriously scout OL and seriously invest. The window is open but it will shut quickly without OL. Depth and starters are needed.
We feel the same, VG. I too have tremendous love for him, and wish him all the success in the world....just not as a Saint. I'm not in the business of loving individual players rather than a team, but there are 3 exceptions in the NFL right now that I do love and want to be successful: Teddy, Carson and Larry Fitzgerald.
I think the shelf life of NFL coaches with a team is shorter these days and Zimmer might be passing his window here. They used to get 3, even 4 years of patience through losing records to "build their team" and then a couple more years to make the playoffs, another year to win a playoff game, then contend... But now owners see coaches like Dan Quinn, Sean McVay, Anthony Lynn, and maybe Matt Nagy come in and field contenders within 2 years. Zimmer did win in his 2nd season, but he has been in a bad-year/good-year/bad/good/bad pattern and if the narrative is now, "need another season or so to bring the offense up to the same level as the defense", that's really frustrating.
But I don't think anyone is getting fired after this season (unless they totally collapse). Spielman can spin the idea that Cousins needed a year to get comfortable here and that now he really, honestly, I-swear-Mr-Wilf, GETS the notion that he needs to build up the OL through FA and the draft. If the Vikings are mediocre again in 2019 - especially if Cousins looks like a mistake - I think Spielman will be done. Most likely Zimmer with him because new GMs want their own coach...though Zimmer could get treated like John Fox, with a new GM that ignores him, drafts for the following year, lets Zimmer take the blame for a bad season that earns a high draft pick, and THEN fire Zimmer.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
I think the shelf life of NFL coaches with a team is shorter these days and Zimmer might be passing his window here. They used to get 3, even 4 years of patience through losing records to "build their team" and then a couple more years to make the playoffs, another year to win a playoff game, then contend... But now owners see coaches like Dan Quinn, Sean McVay, Anthony Lynn, and maybe Matt Nagy come in and field contenders within 2 years. Zimmer did win in his 2nd season, but he has been in a bad-year/good-year/bad/good/bad pattern and if the narrative is now, "need another season or so to bring the offense up to the same level as the defense", that's really frustrating.
But I don't think anyone is getting fired after this season (unless they totally collapse). Spielman can spin the idea that Cousins needed a year to get comfortable here and that now he really, honestly, I-swear-Mr-Wilf, GETS the notion that he needs to build up the OL through FA and the draft. If the Vikings are mediocre again in 2019 - especially if Cousins looks like a mistake - I think Spielman will be done. Most likely Zimmer with him because new GMs want their own coach...though Zimmer could get treated like John Fox, with a new GM that ignores him, drafts for the following year, lets Zimmer take the blame for a bad season that earns a high draft pick, and THEN fire Zimmer.
Just for reference. A bad Zimmer year is just NFL medicore at 7-9 or 8-8. It's not like the Frazier era where bad meant 3-13 or 5-10-1.
LOL... we are such a spoiled bunch.
Quote: @medaille said:
@ Jor-El said:
I think the shelf life of NFL coaches with a team is shorter these days and Zimmer might be passing his window here. They used to get 3, even 4 years of patience through losing records to "build their team" and then a couple more years to make the playoffs, another year to win a playoff game, then contend... But now owners see coaches like Dan Quinn, Sean McVay, Anthony Lynn, and maybe Matt Nagy come in and field contenders within 2 years. Zimmer did win in his 2nd season, but he has been in a bad-year/good-year/bad/good/bad pattern and if the narrative is now, "need another season or so to bring the offense up to the same level as the defense", that's really frustrating.
But I don't think anyone is getting fired after this season (unless they totally collapse). Spielman can spin the idea that Cousins needed a year to get comfortable here and that now he really, honestly, I-swear-Mr-Wilf, GETS the notion that he needs to build up the OL through FA and the draft. If the Vikings are mediocre again in 2019 - especially if Cousins looks like a mistake - I think Spielman will be done. Most likely Zimmer with him because new GMs want their own coach...though Zimmer could get treated like John Fox, with a new GM that ignores him, drafts for the following year, lets Zimmer take the blame for a bad season that earns a high draft pick, and THEN fire Zimmer.
Just for reference. A bad Zimmer year is just NFL medicore at 7-9 or 8-8. It's not like the Frazier era where bad meant 3-13 or 5-10-1.
Totally true and it makes me hesitant to change. We were unhappy with Denny Green "only" making the playoffs 8 of his 10 seasons, and went into a 13-year abyss. But...
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
LOL... we are such a spoiled bunch.
No: spoiled means getting what you want almost always. Patriots fans are spoiled.
Vikings fans are teased: getting close to, but NEVER receiving, a championship.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ medaille said:
@ Jor-El said:
I think the shelf life of NFL coaches with a team is shorter these days and Zimmer might be passing his window here. They used to get 3, even 4 years of patience through losing records to "build their team" and then a couple more years to make the playoffs, another year to win a playoff game, then contend... But now owners see coaches like Dan Quinn, Sean McVay, Anthony Lynn, and maybe Matt Nagy come in and field contenders within 2 years. Zimmer did win in his 2nd season, but he has been in a bad-year/good-year/bad/good/bad pattern and if the narrative is now, "need another season or so to bring the offense up to the same level as the defense", that's really frustrating.
But I don't think anyone is getting fired after this season (unless they totally collapse). Spielman can spin the idea that Cousins needed a year to get comfortable here and that now he really, honestly, I-swear-Mr-Wilf, GETS the notion that he needs to build up the OL through FA and the draft. If the Vikings are mediocre again in 2019 - especially if Cousins looks like a mistake - I think Spielman will be done. Most likely Zimmer with him because new GMs want their own coach...though Zimmer could get treated like John Fox, with a new GM that ignores him, drafts for the following year, lets Zimmer take the blame for a bad season that earns a high draft pick, and THEN fire Zimmer.
Just for reference. A bad Zimmer year is just NFL medicore at 7-9 or 8-8. It's not like the Frazier era where bad meant 3-13 or 5-10-1.
Totally true and it makes me hesitant to change. We were unhappy with Denny Green "only" making the playoffs 8 of his 10 seasons, and went into a 13-year abyss. But...
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
LOL... we are such a spoiled bunch.
No: spoiled means getting what you want almost always. Patriots fans are spoiled.
Vikings fans are teased: getting close to, but NEVER receiving, a championship.
in the grand scheme... we are pretty spoiled, there are a lot of franchises fans that would love to have our team and its history...maybe not the ultimate fails, but we have been treated to some pretty dam good teams over the history of the franchise.
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