Quote: @Jor-El said:
I think we would be worse if Zimmer is fired. Odds and history suggest someone worse (like Frazier or Tice) would replace him. I think Zimmer is an average-level NFL head coach, but I no longer think he's going to build a Super Bowl contender.
Why, because he has almost unfathomable bad luck in the injury/suspension department?
EDIT: The following is not directly personally at you, Jor-El, but is just a rant in general at those who are starting to question Zimmer as the HC after every single loss.
I can't believe how short of a memory some people have here. Do you not remember the Tice/Childress/Frazier years? The Vikings are 2-2 after losing their starting QB and RB early in the season for the second year in a row and people start calling for Zimmer's head saying that he can't coach?
You've got to be f*cking kidding me.
Here's a little synopsis of what Zimmer has had to endure so far as HC of the Vikings:
2014: The guy the entire offense was built around, Adrian Peterson, gets suspended for the year before the second game of the season. Zimmer also has to lean on a rookie QB and with Matt Asiata as the starting RB and a washed up Greg Jennings as the main WR, in a temporary outdoor college stadium, while also inheriting the NFL's worst scoring defense from the year prior. Despite all of this, he leads the team to a 7-9 record, an improvement over the 5-10-1 record the year before under Frazier. The defense also improves from 32 ranked in points, to 11th.
2015: Finally with some stability at QB and RB, but still in a temporary college stadium, the Vikings go 11-5, while finishing in the top 5 in scoring defense and beating the Packers in Lambeau Field in the final week of the season to win the division. Blair Walsh misses a 27 yard FG in the playoffs that costs us a chance at beating the eventual NFC Champion Seahawks.
2016: The two main pieces of our offense, Bridgewater and AD are lost for the season by the end of week two. The OL is also the most injured unit in the entire NFL since the year 2000. A total of 92.1 games were missed just by the offensive line alone. Despite all of this, Zimmer coaches the team to an 8-8 record and the defense finishes 6th in points allowed.
2017: Once again, both the starting QB and a very promising RB are lost early in the season. However, the Vikings are 2-2 and 8th in points allowed. The offense has also shown to be MUCH improved when the starters have been on the field and even the much improved backup QB position has directly contributed to a win.
We've also started beating the Packers regularly, both at home and in GB. Erin no longer toys with our defense like he's going against a Division II college team. Zimmer has changed the entire attitude and culture of this organization and many of the players rave about playing for this team and playing for him. I truly believe that if he could ever get some goddamn stability for a change, he could be the coach that leads us to our first championship.
Please look at the big picture instead of freaking out after each loss.
2-5 against Jim Caldwell,.SF. Can't blame it all on injuries.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
2-5 against Jim Caldwell,.SF. Can't blame it all on injuries.
But I would argue that your focus is too narrow. You are looking at one team and one coach. I am looking at the bigger picture about why I think Zimmer has done one hell of a job so far given the hands that he has been dealt.
I think it's pretty incredible that his worst record is 7-9 considering all the shit he's had to deal with, not to mention the team that he was handed after Frazier was fired.
Quote: @SFVikingFan said:
@ Jor-El said:
I think we would be worse if Zimmer is fired. Odds and history suggest someone worse (like Frazier or Tice) would replace him. I think Zimmer is an average-level NFL head coach, but I no longer think he's going to build a Super Bowl contender.
Why, because he has almost unfathomable bad luck in the injury/suspension department?
EDIT: The following is not directly personally at you, Jor-El, but is just a rant in general at those who are starting to question Zimmer as the HC after every single loss.
I can't believe how short of a memory some people have here. Do you not remember the Tice/Childress/Frazier years? The Vikings are 2-2 after losing their starting QB and RB early in the season for the second year in a row and people start calling for Zimmer's head saying that he can't coach?
You've got to be f*cking kidding me.
Here's a little synopsis of what Zimmer has had to endure so far as HC of the Vikings:
2014: The guy the entire offense was built around, Adrian Peterson, gets suspended for the year before the second game of the season. Zimmer also has to lean on a rookie QB and with Matt Asiata as the starting RB and a washed up Greg Jennings as the main WR, in a temporary outdoor college stadium, while also inheriting the NFL's worst scoring defense from the year prior. Despite all of this, he leads the team to a 7-9 record, an improvement over the 5-10-1 record the year before under Frazier. The defense also improves from 32 ranked in points, to 11th.
2015: Finally with some stability at QB and RB, but still in a temporary college stadium, the Vikings go 11-5, while finishing in the top 5 in scoring defense and beating the Packers in Lambeau Field in the final week of the season to win the division. Blair Walsh misses a 27 yard FG in the playoffs that costs us a chance at beating the eventual NFC Champion Seahawks.
2016: The two main pieces of our offense, Bridgewater and AD are lost for the season by the end of week two. The OL is also the most injured unit in the entire NFL since the year 2000. A total of 92.1 games were missed just by the offensive line alone. Despite all of this, Zimmer coaches the team to an 8-8 record and the defense finishes 6th in points allowed.
2017: Once again, both the starting QB and a very promising RB are lost early in the season. However, the Vikings are 2-2 and 8th in points allowed. The offense has also shown to be MUCH improved when the starters have been on the field and even the much improved backup QB position has directly contributed to a win.
We've also started beating the Packers regularly, both at home and in GB. Erin no longer toys with our defense like he's going against a Division II college team. Zimmer has changed the entire attitude and culture of this organization and many of the players rave about playing for this team and playing for him. I truly believe that if he could ever get some goddamn stability for a change, he could be the coach that leads us to our first championship.
Please look at the big picture instead of freaking out after each loss.
You forgot the "BOOM" at the end...
Quote: @FSUVike said:
2-5 against Jim Caldwell,.SF. Can't blame it all on injuries.
I bet if we had Matthew Stafford the past 4 seasons, that record would be flipped...
All good points by everyone so far which is what I was hoping for in this discussion. Here is my concern. Longship members are quick to defend Zimmer and talk about his success with the defense which he is both the designer of and the playcaller. I agree that he has been stellar in that role and wouldn't want anyone else. On the flip side, our offense has struggled during his tenure. We are 19th in points scored this season averaging 19.8 per game. Last year with Bradford healthy, we averaged 19 points per game. If you throw out the last game of the year against the Bears and the 38 points they gave up against us, that average drops down to 17.9 per game after the 5-0 start. I don't think this offense generates enough points to beat the best teams in the NFC. Many of them also have balanced teams with solid to great defenses like the Falcons, Lions, Packers, Cowboys, etc. How long does Zimmer get to build an elite offensive team that compliments his defense? Injuries have been a major factor but you only get so much time in these jobs before owners expect results. It will be interesting to see how the rest of the year plays out, especially if Bradford is out an extended period of time and we fall out of contention. I hope he and Shurmur can find some answers to put more points on the board. With Floyd back, I would seriously look to pass first to set-up the run with 4 Wideout sets. Diggs, Thielen, Floyd, and Wright would be tough to cover if Case can get rid of the ball quickly and decisively. With Murray still not healthy, and McKinnon banged up, Shurmur needs to open things up.
In the two losses we were competitive, but made mistakes left and right and beat ourselves in many respects. In the two wins we rolled over the opponents. This tells me we have a good team but something has to stop the mental mistakes, including coaching mistakes like that wildcat call which has gotta be the dumbest thing I've seen out of the Vikings since I don't know, maybe the Chili era.
It's on Zimmer to straighten all of that out. I agree he's a good DC, as a head guy the jury is out; all the excuses for him in this thread don't matter in the long run, in the NFL you have to produce wins and playoff appearances or the next guy gets a crack at it.
Quote: @SFVikingFan said:
@ Jor-El said:
I think we would be worse if Zimmer is fired. Odds and history suggest someone worse (like Frazier or Tice) would replace him. I think Zimmer is an average-level NFL head coach, but I no longer think he's going to build a Super Bowl contender.
Why, because he has almost unfathomable bad luck in the injury/suspension department?
EDIT: The following is not directly personally at you, Jor-El, but is just a rant in general at those who are starting to question Zimmer as the HC after every single loss.
I can't believe how short of a memory some people have here. Do you not remember the Tice/Childress/Frazier years? The Vikings are 2-2 after losing their starting QB and RB early in the season for the second year in a row and people start calling for Zimmer's head saying that he can't coach?
You've got to be f*cking kidding me.
Here's a little synopsis of what Zimmer has had to endure so far as HC of the Vikings:
2014: ...
Please look at the big picture instead of freaking out after each loss.
I know all that (and btw didn't take any of this personally) - I said, we could do far worse, a la Frazier or Tice. It's not a set of extremes, where our coach is either great or terrible. But we Vikings fans have an expectation that we should have a team that contends for the division title and more. From Bud Grant's first season until 2000, we made the playoffs 23 out of 34 years, won 57% of our regular season games, went to 9 NFC Championship games and 4 Super Bowls.
But that was all in the last century. The Vikings fired Dennis Green because he only took the team to the playoffs in 8 of his 10 seasons - and many fans were glad to see him go, the man won no Super Bowls! THAT is, in my opinion, the defining aspect of Viking fandom: we are not happy with anything but championships. We fired a coach who was 97-63 with a playoff appearance rate of 80% - and you are surprised that Zimmer, with 1 winning season and a loss in the wildcard round, is being questioned??
It's sad but I'm beginning to accept that maybe we are never going to recapture the "glory years". We're not a dumpster fire of a franchise and can be glad of that. But since Green left the Vikings are 123-132-1. We're just one of those teams that linger around .500, a lot of 7-9 or 8-8 years. Have we had bad breaks? Sure, but all teams do. Denny never had a multi-year "franchise quarterback" - he was winning with Gannon, Salisbury, Moon, George, McMahon, Johnson, Cunningham, Culpepper. Burns had Kramer for a few years but Steve Dils and Wade Wilson too. He survived the Herschel Walker trade and didn't beg to get a few years crossed off as "mulligans".
Winning franchises overcome their injuries and player problems, but losing teams just make a list of excuses and tell themselves fate conspired against them.
As for Zimmer, IMO he came here with a bunch of weaknesses, and that's most likely why he got passed over by other teams repeatedly. Those other teams were not all just dumber than the Vikings, folks. Zimmer is suprisingly weak at clock management, dealing with the press, and ignored the offensive side of the ball for 2+ years. Those are pretty stupid mistakes for a guy coaching in the NFL for two decades. Most of the good NFL coaches had a first head coaching job that they made mistakes in (Belichick, Carroll, etc) but they got better when they got a second chance. This is Zimmer's rookie job and he won't likely get another.
And - I'll try to keep this part short because everyone else seems to want to just label Zimmer's defense as great/elite - I don't think Zimmer is an amazing "defensive guru". He has built a good defense, and it looks great compared to Les Frazier's. But when our offense is sputtering, does our defense ever stifle an opponent and carry us to a win? I mean really stifle, not 14 points. Do we have games where our defense gets big plays and turnovers and scores by itself and sets the tone for the team? Nope. The standard our defense is playing towards is, "we should win IF our offense scores 21 or more". Look at Zimmer's historic defensive rankings before coming here and it's obvious why no one thought his defensive genius was enough to overlook all his other flaws.
Zimmer has not put together a streak of 2+ wins since the 5-0 start; that's a pretty critical test of preparing and leading and building a winning attitude on the squad. In the next 4 weeks he has 2 home games and 2 road games against the Bears and Browns. That's a great opportunity to get momentum for this team. Will they do that - or will they hang their heads and say, "Bradford's out, Cook's out, it's hard to prepare for Trubisky without any game tape, poor us, it's so unfair, boo hoo..." ??
60% of his HC career he's been without his QB1...is this really a discussion?
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ SFVikingFan said:
@ Jor-El said:
I think we would be worse if Zimmer is fired. Odds and history suggest someone worse (like Frazier or Tice) would replace him. I think Zimmer is an average-level NFL head coach, but I no longer think he's going to build a Super Bowl contender.
Why, because he has almost unfathomable bad luck in the injury/suspension department?
EDIT: The following is not directly personally at you, Jor-El, but is just a rant in general at those who are starting to question Zimmer as the HC after every single loss.
I can't believe how short of a memory some people have here. Do you not remember the Tice/Childress/Frazier years? The Vikings are 2-2 after losing their starting QB and RB early in the season for the second year in a row and people start calling for Zimmer's head saying that he can't coach?
You've got to be f*cking kidding me.
Here's a little synopsis of what Zimmer has had to endure so far as HC of the Vikings:
2014: ...
Please look at the big picture instead of freaking out after each loss.
I know all that (and btw didn't take any of this personally) - I said, we could do far worse, a la Frazier or Tice. It's not a set of extremes, where our coach is either great or terrible. But we Vikings fans have an expectation that we should have a team that contends for the division title and more. From Bud Grant's first season until 2000, we made the playoffs 23 out of 34 years, won 57% of our regular season games, went to 9 NFC Championship games and 4 Super Bowls.
But that was all in the last century. The Vikings fired Dennis Green because he only took the team to the playoffs in 8 of his 10 seasons - and many fans were glad to see him go, the man won no Super Bowls! THAT is, in my opinion, the defining aspect of Viking fandom: we are not happy with anything but championships. We fired a coach who was 97-63 with a playoff appearance rate of 80% - and you are surprised that Zimmer, with 1 winning season and a loss in the wildcard round, is being questioned??
It's sad but I'm beginning to accept that maybe we are never going to recapture the "glory years". We're not a dumpster fire of a franchise and can be glad of that. But since Green left the Vikings are 123-132-1. We're just one of those teams that linger around .500, a lot of 7-9 or 8-8 years. Have we had bad breaks? Sure, but all teams do. Denny never had a multi-year "franchise quarterback" - he was winning with Gannon, Salisbury, Moon, George, McMahon, Johnson, Cunningham, Culpepper. Burns had Kramer for a few years but Steve Dils and Wade Wilson too. He survived the Herschel Walker trade and didn't beg to get a few years crossed off as "mulligans".
Winning franchises overcome their injuries and player problems, but losing teams just make a list of excuses and tell themselves fate conspired against them.
As for Zimmer, IMO he came here with a bunch of weaknesses, and that's most likely why he got passed over by other teams repeatedly. Those other teams were not all just dumber than the Vikings, folks. Zimmer is suprisingly weak at clock management, dealing with the press, and ignored the offensive side of the ball for 2+ years. Those are pretty stupid mistakes for a guy coaching in the NFL for two decades. Most of the good NFL coaches had a first head coaching job that they made mistakes in (Belichick, Carroll, etc) but they got better when they got a second chance. This is Zimmer's rookie job and he won't likely get another.
And - I'll try to keep this part short because everyone else seems to want to just label Zimmer's defense as great/elite - I don't think Zimmer is an amazing "defensive guru". He has built a good defense, and it looks great compared to Les Frazier's. But when our offense is sputtering, does our defense ever stifle an opponent and carry us to a win? I mean really stifle, not 14 points. Do we have games where our defense gets big plays and turnovers and scores by itself and sets the tone for the team? Nope. The standard our defense is playing towards is, "we should win IF our offense scores 21 or more". Look at Zimmer's historic defensive rankings before coming here and it's obvious why no one thought his defensive genius was enough to overlook all his other flaws.
Zimmer has not put together a streak of 2+ wins since the 5-0 start; that's a pretty critical test of preparing and leading and building a winning attitude on the squad. In the next 4 weeks he has 2 home games and 2 road games against the Bears and Browns. That's a great opportunity to get momentum for this team. Will they do that - or will they hang their heads and say, "Bradford's out, Cook's out, it's hard to prepare for Trubisky without any game tape, poor us, it's so unfair, boo hoo..." ??
Mostly a very good post JorEl except for that last paragraph, I don't see these guys going boo hoo hoo. I think Denny had good offenses because he knew offense and we had a decent line anchored by Randall McDaniel one of the greatest guards in NFL history. And early in his regime he had a decent D until Dungy took off for Tampa.
I also don't think fans are different anywhere, a coach without a championship is always under the gun, even coaches with championships get fired, it's the nature of the business. Reality is only 1 of 32 teams is happy every year come February, the rest have to retool and try again. So most years you are going to be unhappy.
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