Quote: @"1VikesFan" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"PurpleCrush" said:
The thing with smart guys is, they eventually figure it out. Usually sooner rather than later.
only the truly smart ones do, the ones that only think they are smart typically dont see that they are on a wrong path until they are on the unemployment line, which seems to happen quite often in pro sports.
Guess we'll find if Kwesi truly smart or just thinks he's smart. Time will tell and at this time none of us really know what Kwesi and KOC have planned.
as long as they have a plan... thats good enough for me right now, but by this time next year that plan better be pretty apparent or I will be joining the dark side on this one. KAM inherited a bit of a mess so having 2 seasons to get it straightened out and the team pointed in a new direction should be enough time for the picture to come into focus.
Quote: @"JimmyinSD" said:
@"PurpleCrush" said:
The thing with smart guys is, they eventually figure it out. Usually sooner rather than later.
only the truly smart ones do, the ones that only think they are smart typically dont see that they are on a wrong path until they are on the unemployment line, which seems to happen quite often in pro sports.
I think he's done an OK job, especially considering he's trying to walk a very fine line between being competitive and retooling the roster. My only gripe so far is that he hadn't gotten as good a return with his trades as I felt he should have in his first draft.
With that being said, the team still has the makings of a really good offense, and as others have mentioned the defense can't get any worse than last year. So they should still be competitive all the while working on their cap situation.
Quote: @"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
I had the chance to visit with Zyg and Mark before a game in KC years ago, for gazillion aires they were very approachable and friendly, even if they did lie about the tailgating priority of a new stadium, I have to admit that I am still a fan of theirs as far as an ownership group goes.
The Wilfs are great people and great owners. On the flip side they've done nothing to show they know the game of football. Take the good with the bad
what owner knows the game of football? every owner out there gets blasted for how bad they screw things up. the best owners just hire football people and sign checks, those that try and be football people just end up looking the fool.
It can certainly be argued if they hired a "football person" in KAM. I think they carry unreasonable expectations a lot of times and project those expectations on to their football people instead of just allowing them to do their jobs. I firmly believe that's the reason our first choice for the job (Poles) took the Bears job instead
Who said he was the first choice? Do we know if he was for sure offered?
Poles was the first guy we interviewed and was widely considered to be the favorite. We waited on him to make a decision before we moved on to the fallback option in Kwesi, who to me was a political hire (at least partially) when examining the resumes of some of the other candidates interviewed. Particularly Spytek and Monti Ossenfort, who is now the GM of the Cardinals
I don't know about it being political. I assume it was at least partly because of his analytics-type background. KAM obviously did not grow up around the game.
Well can anyone name another GM who's primary football related background is limited to analytics? All of the final four teams last season are ran by GM's who's background is in scouting, player personnel, or is one of the greatest football players of all time (John Lynch). You can be the smartest, book smart guy on the planet, but that doesn't mean you know shit about football or building a roster. It's like hiring a college graduate with a masters degree and thinking because they are a college graduate they'd make a good cop or ski instructor for example, when one has no bearing on the other. He was such a completely outside the box hire and it gives me a good chuckle when I hear some on here down playing the opinions of others while justifying some of these things Kwesi has done, because, well, "he's a smart college guy so he must know what he is doing." Or, the "Wilfs wouldn't have hired him if they didnt know what they were doing." Let's not forget these are the same Wilfs who gave Brad Childress a contract extension after one good year with Favre, only to fire him the following season. The Wilfs are fans with a shit ton of money. So no, just because these guys are "in charge" doesn't mean they know what they are doing or are any smarter on the matter then you or I. I think that's something to keep in mind as we go through this transition and being objective
There is no formula for success as a GM. In any sport. Jerry Rice was one of the greatest players of all time. Much better than John Lynch. Dan Marino was a lot better than John Lynch. So was OJ Simpson. And Randy Moss. None of them has built a SB winner as a GM. Neither have hundreds of other great former NFL stars. Lots of former scouts have failed as GMs. In fact, every single GM the Vikings have ever had has failed to bring a SB to Minnesota.
Some fans may want the Wilfs to try something different. You know the old saying about insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Others want them to keep doing what they've been doing; do what every other team does. And as a fan you can critique any choice they make at least until they win a SB. You are a fan; you have that right. You even have the right to think that you are a better GM than KAM. I support your right to think that. And until you buy your own team, we will never know.
Have those guys you mentioned been GM's? The point is you want guys who have a feel for the game and prior experience building rosters in some facet because that's what GM's do. Scouting, player personnel, or guys who have been former players are highly desirable because they have that feel for the game that isnt taught at Harvard, or by trading stocks, or analyzing why a strong wind might alter a quarterbacks throw (analytics). Smart guy, does not equal smart GM and I think that's what we have in Kwesi who was a completely outside the box hire with extremely limited experience. It would be like hiring Elon Musk to run your football team. Smart guy, very successful, but does he know anything about building a football roster? No
A couple of points:
First, you are arguing that the Vikings should have hired as GM the kind of folks the Vikings have always hired as GM, because that's how you win a SB. Fine. But it has been more than 60 years and we have 0 rings to show for it. Maybe it's OK to try something else, a plan B, at least for a little while. I know Plan B might not work. But we have been working Plan A for 60+ years without success.
Second, when they hired KAM the Vikings did not fire all of their scouts - those guys who grew up in the game and presumably have an eye for NFL talent. KAM is not alone in identifying players. The Vikings' scouting infrastructure is still in place.
What we really need is a guy who can identify a Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers, Favre, Montana, Warner, Brees, ... before they are drafted. (Atlanta had Favre and traded him to GB.) All of these HOF SB-winning QBs should have been the first overall pick in their drafts. None were. We can all recognize Peyton, Eli, Elway, Luck, Aikman, .... It's about the QB.
Get me a GM who can get the QB pick right and nobody will care what their background is.
Quote: @"PurpleCrush" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"PurpleCrush" said:
The thing with smart guys is, they eventually figure it out. Usually sooner rather than later.
only the truly smart ones do, the ones that only think they are smart typically dont see that they are on a wrong path until they are on the unemployment line, which seems to happen quite often in pro sports.
I think he's done an OK job, especially considering he's trying to walk a very fine line between being competitive and retooling the roster. My only gripe so far is that he hadn't gotten as good a return with his trades as I felt he should have in his first draft.
With that being said, the team still has the makings of a really good offense, and as others have mentioned the defense can't get any worse than last year. So they should still be competitive all the while working on their cap situation.
I think he's been bad to this point. I don't care about the 13 wins they won with a new coach and Spielman's roster, I'm looking specifically at what has Adolfo-Mensah brought to the table. He's made one arguably good trade for Hockenson, but a handful of other trades that have been awful. He shit the bed in his first draft in every way possible, from trade value, to trading with division rivals, to the actual players selected and their collective lack of impact. Free agency has been non impactful under the cap crunch and this years first order of free agency business was to give a blocking TE a $21 million dollar contract. Nobody knows what we are doing or if this competitive rebuild is a good strategy. I contend its not and going the tank year route would be the better strategy. We still don't have a long term QB and are dicking around with Cousins, who you know they don't want and are only entertaining him because they have no other options. I didn't like the hire from the outset due to his collective lack of football experience and nothing I've seen to this point has changed that opinion. Let's see how this year plays out
Quote: @"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
I had the chance to visit with Zyg and Mark before a game in KC years ago, for gazillion aires they were very approachable and friendly, even if they did lie about the tailgating priority of a new stadium, I have to admit that I am still a fan of theirs as far as an ownership group goes.
The Wilfs are great people and great owners. On the flip side they've done nothing to show they know the game of football. Take the good with the bad
what owner knows the game of football? every owner out there gets blasted for how bad they screw things up. the best owners just hire football people and sign checks, those that try and be football people just end up looking the fool.
It can certainly be argued if they hired a "football person" in KAM. I think they carry unreasonable expectations a lot of times and project those expectations on to their football people instead of just allowing them to do their jobs. I firmly believe that's the reason our first choice for the job (Poles) took the Bears job instead
Who said he was the first choice? Do we know if he was for sure offered?
Poles was the first guy we interviewed and was widely considered to be the favorite. We waited on him to make a decision before we moved on to the fallback option in Kwesi, who to me was a political hire (at least partially) when examining the resumes of some of the other candidates interviewed. Particularly Spytek and Monti Ossenfort, who is now the GM of the Cardinals
I don't know about it being political. I assume it was at least partly because of his analytics-type background. KAM obviously did not grow up around the game.
Well can anyone name another GM who's primary football related background is limited to analytics? All of the final four teams last season are ran by GM's who's background is in scouting, player personnel, or is one of the greatest football players of all time (John Lynch). You can be the smartest, book smart guy on the planet, but that doesn't mean you know shit about football or building a roster. It's like hiring a college graduate with a masters degree and thinking because they are a college graduate they'd make a good cop or ski instructor for example, when one has no bearing on the other. He was such a completely outside the box hire and it gives me a good chuckle when I hear some on here down playing the opinions of others while justifying some of these things Kwesi has done, because, well, "he's a smart college guy so he must know what he is doing." Or, the "Wilfs wouldn't have hired him if they didnt know what they were doing." Let's not forget these are the same Wilfs who gave Brad Childress a contract extension after one good year with Favre, only to fire him the following season. The Wilfs are fans with a shit ton of money. So no, just because these guys are "in charge" doesn't mean they know what they are doing or are any smarter on the matter then you or I. I think that's something to keep in mind as we go through this transition and being objective
There is no formula for success as a GM. In any sport. Jerry Rice was one of the greatest players of all time. Much better than John Lynch. Dan Marino was a lot better than John Lynch. So was OJ Simpson. And Randy Moss. None of them has built a SB winner as a GM. Neither have hundreds of other great former NFL stars. Lots of former scouts have failed as GMs. In fact, every single GM the Vikings have ever had has failed to bring a SB to Minnesota.
Some fans may want the Wilfs to try something different. You know the old saying about insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Others want them to keep doing what they've been doing; do what every other team does. And as a fan you can critique any choice they make at least until they win a SB. You are a fan; you have that right. You even have the right to think that you are a better GM than KAM. I support your right to think that. And until you buy your own team, we will never know.
Have those guys you mentioned been GM's? The point is you want guys who have a feel for the game and prior experience building rosters in some facet because that's what GM's do. Scouting, player personnel, or guys who have been former players are highly desirable because they have that feel for the game that isnt taught at Harvard, or by trading stocks, or analyzing why a strong wind might alter a quarterbacks throw (analytics). Smart guy, does not equal smart GM and I think that's what we have in Kwesi who was a completely outside the box hire with extremely limited experience. It would be like hiring Elon Musk to run your football team. Smart guy, very successful, but does he know anything about building a football roster? No
A couple of points:
First, you are arguing that the Vikings should have hired as GM the kind of folks the Vikings have always hired as GM, because that's how you win a SB. Fine. But it has been more than 60 years and we have 0 rings to show for it. Maybe it's OK to try something else, a plan B, at least for a little while. I know Plan B might not work. But we have been working Plan A for 60+ years without success.
Second, when they hired KAM the Vikings did not fire all of their scouts - those guys who grew up in the game and presumably have an eye for NFL talent. KAM is not alone in identifying players. The Vikings' scouting infrastructure is still in place.
What we really need is a guy who can identify a Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers, Favre, Montana, Warner, Brees, ... before they are drafted. (Atlanta had Favre and traded him to GB.) All of these HOF SB-winning QBs should have been the first overall pick in their drafts. None were. We can all recognize Peyton, Eli, Elway, Luck, Aikman, .... It's about the QB.
Get me a GM who can get the QB pick right and nobody will care what their background is.
the key for me is KAM smart enough to see that his specialty, the analytics, is only part of the solution, there is still a lot more to finding the right players, yes he has our scouting team ( for what thats worth) but maybe thats where he would be best in brining in some new blood. How much of our scouting team has been home grown and subject to the same bias when evaluating players? might explain why we have been so good at hitting on certain positions and not being able to draft others for shit. If KOC can have 47 coaches under him, why cant KAM have the largest scouting team in the NFL?
Quote: @"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
I had the chance to visit with Zyg and Mark before a game in KC years ago, for gazillion aires they were very approachable and friendly, even if they did lie about the tailgating priority of a new stadium, I have to admit that I am still a fan of theirs as far as an ownership group goes.
The Wilfs are great people and great owners. On the flip side they've done nothing to show they know the game of football. Take the good with the bad
what owner knows the game of football? every owner out there gets blasted for how bad they screw things up. the best owners just hire football people and sign checks, those that try and be football people just end up looking the fool.
It can certainly be argued if they hired a "football person" in KAM. I think they carry unreasonable expectations a lot of times and project those expectations on to their football people instead of just allowing them to do their jobs. I firmly believe that's the reason our first choice for the job (Poles) took the Bears job instead
Who said he was the first choice? Do we know if he was for sure offered?
Poles was the first guy we interviewed and was widely considered to be the favorite. We waited on him to make a decision before we moved on to the fallback option in Kwesi, who to me was a political hire (at least partially) when examining the resumes of some of the other candidates interviewed. Particularly Spytek and Monti Ossenfort, who is now the GM of the Cardinals
I don't know about it being political. I assume it was at least partly because of his analytics-type background. KAM obviously did not grow up around the game.
Well can anyone name another GM who's primary football related background is limited to analytics? All of the final four teams last season are ran by GM's who's background is in scouting, player personnel, or is one of the greatest football players of all time (John Lynch). You can be the smartest, book smart guy on the planet, but that doesn't mean you know shit about football or building a roster. It's like hiring a college graduate with a masters degree and thinking because they are a college graduate they'd make a good cop or ski instructor for example, when one has no bearing on the other. He was such a completely outside the box hire and it gives me a good chuckle when I hear some on here down playing the opinions of others while justifying some of these things Kwesi has done, because, well, "he's a smart college guy so he must know what he is doing." Or, the "Wilfs wouldn't have hired him if they didnt know what they were doing." Let's not forget these are the same Wilfs who gave Brad Childress a contract extension after one good year with Favre, only to fire him the following season. The Wilfs are fans with a shit ton of money. So no, just because these guys are "in charge" doesn't mean they know what they are doing or are any smarter on the matter then you or I. I think that's something to keep in mind as we go through this transition and being objective
A couple of points:
First, you are arguing that the Vikings should have hired as GM the kind of folks the Vikings have always hired as GM, because that's how you win a SB. Fine. But it has been more than 60 years and we have 0 rings to show for it. Maybe it's OK to try something else, a plan B, at least for a little while. I know Plan B might not work. But we have been working Plan A for 60+ years without success.
Second, when they hired KAM the Vikings did not fire all of their scouts - those guys who grew up in the game and presumably have an eye for NFL talent. KAM is not alone in identifying players. The Vikings' scouting infrastructure is still in place.
What we really need is a guy who can identify a Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers, Favre, Montana, Warner, Brees, ... before they are drafted. (Atlanta had Favre and traded him to GB.) All of these HOF SB-winning QBs should have been the first overall pick in their drafts. None were. We can all recognize Peyton, Eli, Elway, Luck, Aikman, .... It's about the QB.
Get me a GM who can get the QB pick right and nobody will care what their background is.
Well let's be real, the Vikings have been below standards in the scouting department and undermanned for years until Spielman got in there and transformed things under the Wilfs. Do you remember the "triangle of authority" years or Tice and company bumbling trades, missing picks before the clock expired, and taking Troy Williamson and Erasmus James in the first round in the same year? So there's been a lot of reasons as to why the Vikings have never won a Super Bowl. With that said, going from a good traditional GM in Spieman, to someone who's total football experience is less then a decade long and is almost entirely comprised of analytics, is the blind swing of all swings. If they were looking to do something outside the box and appease the NFL by hiring a minority candidate, then hire someone who has some actual football experience. I'd have preferred them hand over the keys to Robert Smith, Chad Greenway, or almost anybody else with an actual feel for the game, football experience and a connection with the franchise.
Quote: @"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
I had the chance to visit with Zyg and Mark before a game in KC years ago, for gazillion aires they were very approachable and friendly, even if they did lie about the tailgating priority of a new stadium, I have to admit that I am still a fan of theirs as far as an ownership group goes.
The Wilfs are great people and great owners. On the flip side they've done nothing to show they know the game of football. Take the good with the bad
what owner knows the game of football? every owner out there gets blasted for how bad they screw things up. the best owners just hire football people and sign checks, those that try and be football people just end up looking the fool.
It can certainly be argued if they hired a "football person" in KAM. I think they carry unreasonable expectations a lot of times and project those expectations on to their football people instead of just allowing them to do their jobs. I firmly believe that's the reason our first choice for the job (Poles) took the Bears job instead
Who said he was the first choice? Do we know if he was for sure offered?
Poles was the first guy we interviewed and was widely considered to be the favorite. We waited on him to make a decision before we moved on to the fallback option in Kwesi, who to me was a political hire (at least partially) when examining the resumes of some of the other candidates interviewed. Particularly Spytek and Monti Ossenfort, who is now the GM of the Cardinals
I don't know about it being political. I assume it was at least partly because of his analytics-type background. KAM obviously did not grow up around the game.
Well can anyone name another GM who's primary football related background is limited to analytics? All of the final four teams last season are ran by GM's who's background is in scouting, player personnel, or is one of the greatest football players of all time (John Lynch). You can be the smartest, book smart guy on the planet, but that doesn't mean you know shit about football or building a roster. It's like hiring a college graduate with a masters degree and thinking because they are a college graduate they'd make a good cop or ski instructor for example, when one has no bearing on the other. He was such a completely outside the box hire and it gives me a good chuckle when I hear some on here down playing the opinions of others while justifying some of these things Kwesi has done, because, well, "he's a smart college guy so he must know what he is doing." Or, the "Wilfs wouldn't have hired him if they didnt know what they were doing." Let's not forget these are the same Wilfs who gave Brad Childress a contract extension after one good year with Favre, only to fire him the following season. The Wilfs are fans with a shit ton of money. So no, just because these guys are "in charge" doesn't mean they know what they are doing or are any smarter on the matter then you or I. I think that's something to keep in mind as we go through this transition and being objective
A couple of points:
First, you are arguing that the Vikings should have hired as GM the kind of folks the Vikings have always hired as GM, because that's how you win a SB. Fine. But it has been more than 60 years and we have 0 rings to show for it. Maybe it's OK to try something else, a plan B, at least for a little while. I know Plan B might not work. But we have been working Plan A for 60+ years without success.
Second, when they hired KAM the Vikings did not fire all of their scouts - those guys who grew up in the game and presumably have an eye for NFL talent. KAM is not alone in identifying players. The Vikings' scouting infrastructure is still in place.
What we really need is a guy who can identify a Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers, Favre, Montana, Warner, Brees, ... before they are drafted. (Atlanta had Favre and traded him to GB.) All of these HOF SB-winning QBs should have been the first overall pick in their drafts. None were. We can all recognize Peyton, Eli, Elway, Luck, Aikman, .... It's about the QB.
Get me a GM who can get the QB pick right and nobody will care what their background is.
Well let's be real, the Vikings have been below standards in the scouting department and undermanned for years until Spielman got in there and transformed things under the Wilfs. Do you remember the "triangle of authority" years or Tice and company bumbling trades, missing picks before the clock expired, and taking Troy Williamson and Erasmus James in the first round in the same year? So there's been a lot of reasons as to why the Vikings have never won a Super Bowl. With that said, going from a good traditional GM in Spieman, to someone who's total football experience is less then a decade long and is almost entirely comprised of analytics, is the blind swing of all swings. If they were looking to do something outside the box and appease the NFL by hiring a minority candidate, then hire someone who has some actual football experience. I'd have preferred them hand over the keys to Robert Smith, Chad Greenway, or almost anybody else with an actual feel for the game, football experience and a connection with the franchise.
Rick's not coming back...move on already
Quote: @"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
I had the chance to visit with Zyg and Mark before a game in KC years ago, for gazillion aires they were very approachable and friendly, even if they did lie about the tailgating priority of a new stadium, I have to admit that I am still a fan of theirs as far as an ownership group goes.
The Wilfs are great people and great owners. On the flip side they've done nothing to show they know the game of football. Take the good with the bad
what owner knows the game of football? every owner out there gets blasted for how bad they screw things up. the best owners just hire football people and sign checks, those that try and be football people just end up looking the fool.
It can certainly be argued if they hired a "football person" in KAM. I think they carry unreasonable expectations a lot of times and project those expectations on to their football people instead of just allowing them to do their jobs. I firmly believe that's the reason our first choice for the job (Poles) took the Bears job instead
Who said he was the first choice? Do we know if he was for sure offered?
Poles was the first guy we interviewed and was widely considered to be the favorite. We waited on him to make a decision before we moved on to the fallback option in Kwesi, who to me was a political hire (at least partially) when examining the resumes of some of the other candidates interviewed. Particularly Spytek and Monti Ossenfort, who is now the GM of the Cardinals
I don't know about it being political. I assume it was at least partly because of his analytics-type background. KAM obviously did not grow up around the game.
Well can anyone name another GM who's primary football related background is limited to analytics? All of the final four teams last season are ran by GM's who's background is in scouting, player personnel, or is one of the greatest football players of all time (John Lynch). You can be the smartest, book smart guy on the planet, but that doesn't mean you know shit about football or building a roster. It's like hiring a college graduate with a masters degree and thinking because they are a college graduate they'd make a good cop or ski instructor for example, when one has no bearing on the other. He was such a completely outside the box hire and it gives me a good chuckle when I hear some on here down playing the opinions of others while justifying some of these things Kwesi has done, because, well, "he's a smart college guy so he must know what he is doing." Or, the "Wilfs wouldn't have hired him if they didnt know what they were doing." Let's not forget these are the same Wilfs who gave Brad Childress a contract extension after one good year with Favre, only to fire him the following season. The Wilfs are fans with a shit ton of money. So no, just because these guys are "in charge" doesn't mean they know what they are doing or are any smarter on the matter then you or I. I think that's something to keep in mind as we go through this transition and being objective
A couple of points:
First, you are arguing that the Vikings should have hired as GM the kind of folks the Vikings have always hired as GM, because that's how you win a SB. Fine. But it has been more than 60 years and we have 0 rings to show for it. Maybe it's OK to try something else, a plan B, at least for a little while. I know Plan B might not work. But we have been working Plan A for 60+ years without success.
Second, when they hired KAM the Vikings did not fire all of their scouts - those guys who grew up in the game and presumably have an eye for NFL talent. KAM is not alone in identifying players. The Vikings' scouting infrastructure is still in place.
What we really need is a guy who can identify a Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers, Favre, Montana, Warner, Brees, ... before they are drafted. (Atlanta had Favre and traded him to GB.) All of these HOF SB-winning QBs should have been the first overall pick in their drafts. None were. We can all recognize Peyton, Eli, Elway, Luck, Aikman, .... It's about the QB.
Get me a GM who can get the QB pick right and nobody will care what their background is.
Well let's be real, the Vikings have been below standards in the scouting department and undermanned for years until Spielman got in there and transformed things under the Wilfs. Do you remember the "triangle of authority" years or Tice and company bumbling trades, missing picks before the clock expired, and taking Troy Williamson and Erasmus James in the first round in the same year? So there's been a lot of reasons as to why the Vikings have never won a Super Bowl. With that said, going from a good traditional GM in Spieman, to someone who's total football experience is less then a decade long and is almost entirely comprised of analytics, is the blind swing of all swings. If they were looking to do something outside the box and appease the NFL by hiring a minority candidate, then hire someone who has some actual football experience. I'd have preferred them hand over the keys to Robert Smith, Chad Greenway, or almost anybody else with an actual feel for the game, football experience and a connection with the franchise.
Just as playing the game great doesn't make great coaches, I dont know that knowing the game more means you will be a better GM. We've had football GMs and still only have dust in the trophy case. Head scratchers and all, ya need to give KAM a chance to settle in and see what he can do. Whats the worst case....we don't win the superbowl, again?
Quote: @"1VikesFan" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
I had the chance to visit with Zyg and Mark before a game in KC years ago, for gazillion aires they were very approachable and friendly, even if they did lie about the tailgating priority of a new stadium, I have to admit that I am still a fan of theirs as far as an ownership group goes.
The Wilfs are great people and great owners. On the flip side they've done nothing to show they know the game of football. Take the good with the bad
what owner knows the game of football? every owner out there gets blasted for how bad they screw things up. the best owners just hire football people and sign checks, those that try and be football people just end up looking the fool.
It can certainly be argued if they hired a "football person" in KAM. I think they carry unreasonable expectations a lot of times and project those expectations on to their football people instead of just allowing them to do their jobs. I firmly believe that's the reason our first choice for the job (Poles) took the Bears job instead
Who said he was the first choice? Do we know if he was for sure offered?
Poles was the first guy we interviewed and was widely considered to be the favorite. We waited on him to make a decision before we moved on to the fallback option in Kwesi, who to me was a political hire (at least partially) when examining the resumes of some of the other candidates interviewed. Particularly Spytek and Monti Ossenfort, who is now the GM of the Cardinals
I don't know about it being political. I assume it was at least partly because of his analytics-type background. KAM obviously did not grow up around the game.
Well can anyone name another GM who's primary football related background is limited to analytics? All of the final four teams last season are ran by GM's who's background is in scouting, player personnel, or is one of the greatest football players of all time (John Lynch). You can be the smartest, book smart guy on the planet, but that doesn't mean you know shit about football or building a roster. It's like hiring a college graduate with a masters degree and thinking because they are a college graduate they'd make a good cop or ski instructor for example, when one has no bearing on the other. He was such a completely outside the box hire and it gives me a good chuckle when I hear some on here down playing the opinions of others while justifying some of these things Kwesi has done, because, well, "he's a smart college guy so he must know what he is doing." Or, the "Wilfs wouldn't have hired him if they didnt know what they were doing." Let's not forget these are the same Wilfs who gave Brad Childress a contract extension after one good year with Favre, only to fire him the following season. The Wilfs are fans with a shit ton of money. So no, just because these guys are "in charge" doesn't mean they know what they are doing or are any smarter on the matter then you or I. I think that's something to keep in mind as we go through this transition and being objective
A couple of points:
First, you are arguing that the Vikings should have hired as GM the kind of folks the Vikings have always hired as GM, because that's how you win a SB. Fine. But it has been more than 60 years and we have 0 rings to show for it. Maybe it's OK to try something else, a plan B, at least for a little while. I know Plan B might not work. But we have been working Plan A for 60+ years without success.
Second, when they hired KAM the Vikings did not fire all of their scouts - those guys who grew up in the game and presumably have an eye for NFL talent. KAM is not alone in identifying players. The Vikings' scouting infrastructure is still in place.
What we really need is a guy who can identify a Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers, Favre, Montana, Warner, Brees, ... before they are drafted. (Atlanta had Favre and traded him to GB.) All of these HOF SB-winning QBs should have been the first overall pick in their drafts. None were. We can all recognize Peyton, Eli, Elway, Luck, Aikman, .... It's about the QB.
Get me a GM who can get the QB pick right and nobody will care what their background is.
Well let's be real, the Vikings have been below standards in the scouting department and undermanned for years until Spielman got in there and transformed things under the Wilfs. Do you remember the "triangle of authority" years or Tice and company bumbling trades, missing picks before the clock expired, and taking Troy Williamson and Erasmus James in the first round in the same year? So there's been a lot of reasons as to why the Vikings have never won a Super Bowl. With that said, going from a good traditional GM in Spieman, to someone who's total football experience is less then a decade long and is almost entirely comprised of analytics, is the blind swing of all swings. If they were looking to do something outside the box and appease the NFL by hiring a minority candidate, then hire someone who has some actual football experience. I'd have preferred them hand over the keys to Robert Smith, Chad Greenway, or almost anybody else with an actual feel for the game, football experience and a connection with the franchise.
Rick's not coming back...move on already
Everybody knows that
Quote: @"JimmyinSD" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"dadevike" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"supafreak84" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
I had the chance to visit with Zyg and Mark before a game in KC years ago, for gazillion aires they were very approachable and friendly, even if they did lie about the tailgating priority of a new stadium, I have to admit that I am still a fan of theirs as far as an ownership group goes.
The Wilfs are great people and great owners. On the flip side they've done nothing to show they know the game of football. Take the good with the bad
what owner knows the game of football? every owner out there gets blasted for how bad they screw things up. the best owners just hire football people and sign checks, those that try and be football people just end up looking the fool.
It can certainly be argued if they hired a "football person" in KAM. I think they carry unreasonable expectations a lot of times and project those expectations on to their football people instead of just allowing them to do their jobs. I firmly believe that's the reason our first choice for the job (Poles) took the Bears job instead
Who said he was the first choice? Do we know if he was for sure offered?
Poles was the first guy we interviewed and was widely considered to be the favorite. We waited on him to make a decision before we moved on to the fallback option in Kwesi, who to me was a political hire (at least partially) when examining the resumes of some of the other candidates interviewed. Particularly Spytek and Monti Ossenfort, who is now the GM of the Cardinals
I don't know about it being political. I assume it was at least partly because of his analytics-type background. KAM obviously did not grow up around the game.
Well can anyone name another GM who's primary football related background is limited to analytics? All of the final four teams last season are ran by GM's who's background is in scouting, player personnel, or is one of the greatest football players of all time (John Lynch). You can be the smartest, book smart guy on the planet, but that doesn't mean you know shit about football or building a roster. It's like hiring a college graduate with a masters degree and thinking because they are a college graduate they'd make a good cop or ski instructor for example, when one has no bearing on the other. He was such a completely outside the box hire and it gives me a good chuckle when I hear some on here down playing the opinions of others while justifying some of these things Kwesi has done, because, well, "he's a smart college guy so he must know what he is doing." Or, the "Wilfs wouldn't have hired him if they didnt know what they were doing." Let's not forget these are the same Wilfs who gave Brad Childress a contract extension after one good year with Favre, only to fire him the following season. The Wilfs are fans with a shit ton of money. So no, just because these guys are "in charge" doesn't mean they know what they are doing or are any smarter on the matter then you or I. I think that's something to keep in mind as we go through this transition and being objective
A couple of points:
First, you are arguing that the Vikings should have hired as GM the kind of folks the Vikings have always hired as GM, because that's how you win a SB. Fine. But it has been more than 60 years and we have 0 rings to show for it. Maybe it's OK to try something else, a plan B, at least for a little while. I know Plan B might not work. But we have been working Plan A for 60+ years without success.
Second, when they hired KAM the Vikings did not fire all of their scouts - those guys who grew up in the game and presumably have an eye for NFL talent. KAM is not alone in identifying players. The Vikings' scouting infrastructure is still in place.
What we really need is a guy who can identify a Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers, Favre, Montana, Warner, Brees, ... before they are drafted. (Atlanta had Favre and traded him to GB.) All of these HOF SB-winning QBs should have been the first overall pick in their drafts. None were. We can all recognize Peyton, Eli, Elway, Luck, Aikman, .... It's about the QB.
Get me a GM who can get the QB pick right and nobody will care what their background is.
Well let's be real, the Vikings have been below standards in the scouting department and undermanned for years until Spielman got in there and transformed things under the Wilfs. Do you remember the "triangle of authority" years or Tice and company bumbling trades, missing picks before the clock expired, and taking Troy Williamson and Erasmus James in the first round in the same year? So there's been a lot of reasons as to why the Vikings have never won a Super Bowl. With that said, going from a good traditional GM in Spieman, to someone who's total football experience is less then a decade long and is almost entirely comprised of analytics, is the blind swing of all swings. If they were looking to do something outside the box and appease the NFL by hiring a minority candidate, then hire someone who has some actual football experience. I'd have preferred them hand over the keys to Robert Smith, Chad Greenway, or almost anybody else with an actual feel for the game, football experience and a connection with the franchise.
Just as playing the game great doesn't make great coaches, I dont know that knowing the game more means you will be a better GM. We've had football GMs and still only have dust in the trophy case. Head scratchers and all, ya need to give KAM a chance to settle in and see what he can do. Whats the worst case....we don't win the superbowl, again?
On the flipside how many stock trading analytics guys have won a Super Bowl as a GM? And yes the fear is we are continuing down the non Super Bowl path and wasting even more years with a guy who's total cumulative football experience is less then the guy working down the street at 7-11. But unfortunately this is the ride we are on and nothing anybody can do about it
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