Diggs v JJ

[Guest]

@Kmerry82 said:

@medaille said:
To me this is a comparison that is being made
inappropriately, because you need to separate the end results from the trade
itself and no one is looking at the trade itself, they are looking at the end
results.  The correct trade for the
Vikings is that the Vikings shouldn’t have traded Diggs at all.  The reason the Vikings shouldn’t have traded
Diggs is that you are taking a known high quality player and replacing them
with an unknown draft pick.  I’m sure someone
deep into analytics like Kwesi could spit out a detailed analysis into the
value of Diggs, vs the expected value of money and draft picks, but I think the
odds are that we lost the value equation by getting rid of Diggs.  Obviously Jefferson is on track to be an all
decade/HOF caliber receiver and that’s great, but the reality is that was a
very unlikely outcome.


Secondly, I think it’s inappropriate in the sense that it
makes it sound like it was a consensual trade between two willing
partners.  The Vikings didn’t choose to
trade Diggs shortly after resigning him to an extension.  He forced himself out.  We shouldn’t be patting ourselves on the back
too hard for making a trade when the choice was made for us and selecting the 4th
or 5th WR in that draft.


For me, I’m just happy that things turned out well.

Minny65 begins to hit the nail on the head.  Diggs didn't want to be with the vikings anymore for whatever reason,  thinking he was going to be best utilized with the vikings for his career.  Whether that was Zimmer or not who knows.  At that point you have a disgruntled player.  They either leave once their contract is done and all you receive is a comp pick, or you trade them.  The Vikings elected to trade him.   

Now,  for the first 4 years we will have greatly won the trade.  We have received similar or better production,  with a much younger player on a much lower contract.  If you have a high salary QB like Cousins you are going to need to find elite players on cheap contracts and that is what we have with JJ and Darrisaw.  Now the question is will Cousins ever be willing to take a more reasonable contract to retain better players -  his previous MO says no.  However, he may have a different appreciation with this management and coaching group.  

However,  honestly once we pay JJ even though he is a younger player and will still likely be giving good stats,  he will ultimately not be as valuable due to the high pay. We will be paying him what we should be receiving.   Christian Darrisaw and JJ are going to cause some cap management issues if we still have Cousins at such a high level.  Add in Hockenson as well.  

We will have some players coming off or back at reduced levels.  Harry, Hunter?, Kendricks, Theilen, possibly Cook.   It will be fun managing the cap in future years.   

I could see 3 of those 5 gone next year - or on GREATLY reduced contracts. 

Fans/players should double-down on just enjoying this season. 

I think Brez is still with the team? 

[Guest]

@Kmerry82 said:

@medaille said:
To me this is a comparison that is being made
inappropriately, because you need to separate the end results from the trade
itself and no one is looking at the trade itself, they are looking at the end
results.  The correct trade for the
Vikings is that the Vikings shouldn’t have traded Diggs at all.  The reason the Vikings shouldn’t have traded
Diggs is that you are taking a known high quality player and replacing them
with an unknown draft pick.  I’m sure someone
deep into analytics like Kwesi could spit out a detailed analysis into the
value of Diggs, vs the expected value of money and draft picks, but I think the
odds are that we lost the value equation by getting rid of Diggs.  Obviously Jefferson is on track to be an all
decade/HOF caliber receiver and that’s great, but the reality is that was a
very unlikely outcome.


Secondly, I think it’s inappropriate in the sense that it
makes it sound like it was a consensual trade between two willing
partners.  The Vikings didn’t choose to
trade Diggs shortly after resigning him to an extension.  He forced himself out.  We shouldn’t be patting ourselves on the back
too hard for making a trade when the choice was made for us and selecting the 4th
or 5th WR in that draft.


For me, I’m just happy that things turned out well.

Minny65 begins to hit the nail on the head.  Diggs didn't want to be with the vikings anymore for whatever reason,  thinking he was going to be best utilized with the vikings for his career.  Whether that was Zimmer or not who knows.  At that point you have a disgruntled player.  They either leave once their contract is done and all you receive is a comp pick, or you trade them.  The Vikings elected to trade him.   

Now,  for the first 4 years we will have greatly won the trade.  We have received similar or better production,  with a much younger player on a much lower contract.  If you have a high salary QB like Cousins you are going to need to find elite players on cheap contracts and that is what we have with JJ and Darrisaw.  Now the question is will Cousins ever be willing to take a more reasonable contract to retain better players -  his previous MO says no.  However, he may have a different appreciation with this management and coaching group.  

However,  honestly once we pay JJ even though he is a younger player and will still likely be giving good stats,  he will ultimately not be as valuable due to the high pay. We will be paying him what we should be receiving.   Christian Darrisaw and JJ are going to cause some cap management issues if we still have Cousins at such a high level.  Add in Hockenson as well.  

We will have some players coming off or back at reduced levels.  Harry, Hunter?, Kendricks, Theilen, possibly Cook.   It will be fun managing the cap in future years.   

Interesting post, I do wonder if Kirk would be more willing to negotiate his contract with more favorable terms with the new regime.  We are in a honeymoon phase between him and KOC/Kwesi but it does seem possible or even reasonable.  

As someone who wanted Kirk gone last year with a new regime, I am happy to admit that if Kirk is willing to redo a reasonable contract, based on new relationships, then that might be ideal for both parties.  Right now Kirk is due to make 36 million next year (31.5 this year) with a dead cap close to 50 million.  Brezinski has some work to do but we can't keep kicking the can down the road with that huge dead cap number, can we?? 

[Guest]

@Vanguard83 said:
JJ and its not even close in my opinion

first round pick, versus Diggs fifth round pick

JJ almost immediate impact (after a couple games rookie year)
Diggs took a couple years to emerge / name & reputation has largely benefitted from “the miracle”

Diggs whined his way into more money, once he got paid, he “cryptically tweeted” his way out of town.

JJ becoming the face of the franchise after a season or two, Diggs I wouldnt consider that during his tenure here.

Diggs, Dont wanna be here AFTER getting paid?  “Well.......Bye”

Prefer JJ, and its not even close

This.

It is so easy to root for JJ.  He has fun and likes to dance when he scores, but he doesn't take away from the team.  He puts in the work and then has the fun.  His immediate impact shows how seriously he takes his job.

In my book it isn't even close either.  JJ will continue to get better because he is driven to be better.  

[Guest]

@JimmyinSD said:

@medaille said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@

the cap increase will be offset by increases that FAs all expect to get,  problem is the cap increase doesnt seem to cover all the positional increases.  The Vikings seem to be slipping a little further every year into the cap trap that ultimately ends up crippling some teams.  We have KC under contract for only 1 more season,  however his cap is spread clear into 25 to make it work.  This isnt something the Vikings ever used to do IIRC,  maybe 1 year dead money,  but I dont remember that much 2 years past the expiration date. ( like 6.25 in both 24 and 25)

Just remember how long the Saints were able to keep stringing things along with Brees.  Eventually you have to pay the piper, but there's no bank to deny the loan.

And now they have a shit team with no cap or high draft picks.  And they really didn't get into cap trouble until after they had already won their lombardi.

Yeah, but they hit the reset button on their own terms.  Every year they extended Brees, pushing more and more debt into the future, and then eventually you deal with the fallout and hopefully you just jam all the bad stuff into one or two really bad years.  It's better to have multiple competitive years and a couple shitty ones, than to be stuck in the land of not good enough to compete for a long time.  It's just how the NFL is with their flexible salary cap.  You take money from some years and give yourself a better chance in other years and you try to maximize the competitive years and minimize the uncompetitive years.

[Guest]

@medaille said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@medaille said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@

the cap increase will be offset by increases that FAs all expect to get,  problem is the cap increase doesnt seem to cover all the positional increases.  The Vikings seem to be slipping a little further every year into the cap trap that ultimately ends up crippling some teams.  We have KC under contract for only 1 more season,  however his cap is spread clear into 25 to make it work.  This isnt something the Vikings ever used to do IIRC,  maybe 1 year dead money,  but I dont remember that much 2 years past the expiration date. ( like 6.25 in both 24 and 25)

Just remember how long the Saints were able to keep stringing things along with Brees.  Eventually you have to pay the piper, but there's no bank to deny the loan.

And now they have a shit team with no cap or high draft picks.  And they really didn't get into cap trouble until after they had already won their lombardi.

Yeah, but they hit the reset button on their own terms.  Every year they extended Brees, pushing more and more debt into the future, and then eventually you deal with the fallout and hopefully you just jam all the bad stuff into one or two really bad years.  It's better to have multiple competitive years and a couple shitty ones, than to be stuck in the land of not good enough to compete for a long time.  It's just how the NFL is with their flexible salary cap.  You take money from some years and give yourself a better chance in other years and you try to maximize the competitive years and minimize the uncompetitive years.

Remains to be seen how long it takes to recover from those all in, kick the can years,  I think the more a team fails to see its over the pain lingers exponentially.