Quote: @"medaille" said:
@"minny65" said:
@"medaille" said:
It is what it is.
When you are desperate, you’ll submit yourself to worse working
conditions. The 996 schedule isn’t a
musk thing, but a China thing and it’s one of the selling factors to
businessmen. We have a lot of
regulations that have improved our standard of living (and also a lot of
regulations designed to suppress businesses).
These drive up costs. It’s
important for our government to impose the same standards on products that are
imported as are manufactured here. If we
value a regulation enough to have it here, we should value it enough to have it
everywhere. We need to have a system of
tariffs that level the playing fields between countries that care less about
their people and the earth as they import into countries that care more.
This is a governmental problem, not a single person
problem. Obviously people shouldn’t
produce goods in these countries, but they’ve shown time and again that profits
are the driving factor, and we as a society need to remove the profit motive.
Secondarily, there’s a pretty big motivation difference
between an employee and owner in terms of how much they’re willing to work
because of how much is at stake. The
issue has less to do with employees being less motivated, but more to do with
we need to make it much easier for people to become owners. We’ve been put within an employee framework
through schooling, where we were trained to work for other people, and it’s hard
to see outside that box, but we need to work together to become owners of the
work and equipment that are in our daily life.
That is all true but it has also been talked about for the last 40 years since Buy American. Then all the American companies moved oversees for cheap labor, lower taxes, and less worker protections all for the investors (ha!). You mention remove the profit motive but again how...we are an uber capitalistic economy where big business/corporations literally own our government officials. The trend in this country is more advantages for Corporate not less. The small business people think they are part of this pro corporate/capitalistic band of brothers and the corporate world only cares about 1 thing - making more money at all cost because the faceless investor demands it. Greed is part of human nature and any unchecked economic system is bound to swing wealth to the very few. The workers and small business owners be damned. Elon wants American workers to be like the Chinese workers again cheap labor, no protections, long hours etc...talk about a step back into the 1900's before regulations and unions.
Lastly, not everyone is capable or should be an owner.
(Disclaimer - I love my Tesla but that doesn't mean I agree with everything Musk says and does  He is a great mind but I would never want to work with him, he is a douchebag.
Firstly, when I said we need to make it much easier for
people to become owners, I think it’s important to make a distinction in two different
definitions of the word owner. The first
is that of someone who owns capital and profits off capital rather than labor. The second is more of the entrepreneur definition,
where someone is owning the performance of a company and trying to force it
into success. I think we need to
encourage both of those definitions. We
need to encourage more people to start companies, because it’s important to
have adequate competition in the market such that no one company gets too big
and becomes a monopoly and can force it’s will on us, but we also need to start
increasing ownership of companies throughout the income levels. We’re running into a situation where automation
is going to make labor increasingly extinct, and we need to ensure that we own
the means of production, rather than the Musks, Bezos, Gates of the world, who
we then beg for welfare from.
Obviously, our government and our corporations are controlled
by the same small group of people, and there will probably always be a subset
of the population that wants to gain power by placing themselves at key spots
in these organizations. It is the rest
of our jobs to keep them in check, and for the most part, we’ve been neglectful
of those duties. We’ll have to first
start to regain control over these institutions wherever we can until we start
to gain a critical mass. I think it
starts with just continually voting out all the career politicians and
politicians that don’t serve the people.
Then we’ll increase it by creating or reinvigorating frameworks for holding
people in power accountable for when they violate our trust, whether it be corrupt
cops or corrupt judges, etc. On the
business side of things, we need to start preferring businesses that act more
like cooperatives.
Again I agree with almost everything you say but it is not doable. No one votes out "their" party and you have maybe about 5-10% of true Independents = not doable. Also, not doable at any Corporate level where greed is King and more Profits at all cost a the decree of the King.
These concepts have been talked about for decades with nothing but trends the other way.
Quote: @"greediron" said:
@"Canthony" said:
Good for Elon. I am glad that there is an elite to punch the Gates' and Fauci's of the world.
Kinda funny watching all the tesla's drive by sporting the "F* Elon" bumper stickers.
Haven't seen one yet but not everything is Political and right vs left, at least in my world. One party and it's leaders are not always right and I pride myself in not having group thought but again I speak for myself as a Tesla owner.
Quote: @"minny65" said:
@"medaille" said:
@"minny65" said:
@"medaille" said:
It is what it is.
When you are desperate, you’ll submit yourself to worse working
conditions. The 996 schedule isn’t a
musk thing, but a China thing and it’s one of the selling factors to
businessmen. We have a lot of
regulations that have improved our standard of living (and also a lot of
regulations designed to suppress businesses).
These drive up costs. It’s
important for our government to impose the same standards on products that are
imported as are manufactured here. If we
value a regulation enough to have it here, we should value it enough to have it
everywhere. We need to have a system of
tariffs that level the playing fields between countries that care less about
their people and the earth as they import into countries that care more.
This is a governmental problem, not a single person
problem. Obviously people shouldn’t
produce goods in these countries, but they’ve shown time and again that profits
are the driving factor, and we as a society need to remove the profit motive.
Secondarily, there’s a pretty big motivation difference
between an employee and owner in terms of how much they’re willing to work
because of how much is at stake. The
issue has less to do with employees being less motivated, but more to do with
we need to make it much easier for people to become owners. We’ve been put within an employee framework
through schooling, where we were trained to work for other people, and it’s hard
to see outside that box, but we need to work together to become owners of the
work and equipment that are in our daily life.
That is all true but it has also been talked about for the last 40 years since Buy American. Then all the American companies moved oversees for cheap labor, lower taxes, and less worker protections all for the investors (ha!). You mention remove the profit motive but again how...we are an uber capitalistic economy where big business/corporations literally own our government officials. The trend in this country is more advantages for Corporate not less. The small business people think they are part of this pro corporate/capitalistic band of brothers and the corporate world only cares about 1 thing - making more money at all cost because the faceless investor demands it. Greed is part of human nature and any unchecked economic system is bound to swing wealth to the very few. The workers and small business owners be damned. Elon wants American workers to be like the Chinese workers again cheap labor, no protections, long hours etc...talk about a step back into the 1900's before regulations and unions.
Lastly, not everyone is capable or should be an owner.
(Disclaimer - I love my Tesla but that doesn't mean I agree with everything Musk says and does He is a great mind but I would never want to work with him, he is a douchebag.
Firstly, when I said we need to make it much easier for
people to become owners, I think it’s important to make a distinction in two different
definitions of the word owner. The first
is that of someone who owns capital and profits off capital rather than labor. The second is more of the entrepreneur definition,
where someone is owning the performance of a company and trying to force it
into success. I think we need to
encourage both of those definitions. We
need to encourage more people to start companies, because it’s important to
have adequate competition in the market such that no one company gets too big
and becomes a monopoly and can force it’s will on us, but we also need to start
increasing ownership of companies throughout the income levels. We’re running into a situation where automation
is going to make labor increasingly extinct, and we need to ensure that we own
the means of production, rather than the Musks, Bezos, Gates of the world, who
we then beg for welfare from.
Obviously, our government and our corporations are controlled
by the same small group of people, and there will probably always be a subset
of the population that wants to gain power by placing themselves at key spots
in these organizations. It is the rest
of our jobs to keep them in check, and for the most part, we’ve been neglectful
of those duties. We’ll have to first
start to regain control over these institutions wherever we can until we start
to gain a critical mass. I think it
starts with just continually voting out all the career politicians and
politicians that don’t serve the people.
Then we’ll increase it by creating or reinvigorating frameworks for holding
people in power accountable for when they violate our trust, whether it be corrupt
cops or corrupt judges, etc. On the
business side of things, we need to start preferring businesses that act more
like cooperatives.
Again I agree with almost everything you say but it is not doable. No one votes out "their" party and you have maybe about 5-10% of true Independents = not doable. Also, not doable at any Corporate level where greed is King and more Profits at all cost a the decree of the King.
These concepts have been talked about for decades with nothing but trends the other way.
"No one votes out their party" that sentence right there sums up the problem with our system as far as I'm concerned. Voters don't have to be informed about the candidates, they are just led to believe that their party will represent their beliefs when it matters because they believe the same way on a few hot button issues that coincidently the party never gets around to addressing when given the chance.
Quote: @"Vikergirl" said:
He wants a labor force he can control and doesn't want protections for. Look at China and the lack of freedom. There is a philosophy that is not supposed to be allowed since 2021 but is still occurring. It is called 996. It means working from 9am-9pm 6 days a week. Is this something that could or should be adopted in the United States? I would say no, others may disagree. Calling workers lazy is not at all helpful. China has had high suicide rates due to toxic work culture.
Wish more people would be willing to criticize China and ALL the mega corps that build their stuff on slave labor. Apple, Intel, NBA... Wish anyone gave a rats ass about the genocide going on over there with the Uyghurs and even the Chinese in Shanghai. But it probably would be hypocritical to type up a mean tweet on the apple iphone...
But this is exactly why I don't give a rats ass about Musk. The left now hates him and many on the right think he is 'one of us' when the truth is somewhere in the middle. He is a genius that has made lots of money off govt subsidies of environment disaster battery operated cars. So, yeah just like the rest of the oligarchs, he is a hypocrite.
Quote: @"greediron" said:
@"Vikergirl" said:
He wants a labor force he can control and doesn't want protections for. Look at China and the lack of freedom. There is a philosophy that is not supposed to be allowed since 2021 but is still occurring. It is called 996. It means working from 9am-9pm 6 days a week. Is this something that could or should be adopted in the United States? I would say no, others may disagree. Calling workers lazy is not at all helpful. China has had high suicide rates due to toxic work culture.
Wish more people would be willing to criticize China and ALL the mega corps that build their stuff on slave labor. Apple, Intel, NBA... Wish anyone gave a rats ass about the genocide going on over there with the Uyghurs and even the Chinese in Shanghai. But it probably would be hypocritical to type up a mean tweet on the apple iphone...
But this is exactly why I don't give a rats ass about Musk. The left now hates him and many on the right think he is 'one of us' when the truth is somewhere in the middle. He is a genius that has made lots of money off govt subsidies of environment disaster battery operated cars. So, yeah just like the rest of the oligarchs, he is a hypocrite.
I would just like to add that we also still subsidize oil and gas companies that make Billions. Two wrongs don't make it right but I just want to be consistent in our government handouts they swing all ways and in most cases the rich get richer because of Corporate ownership of all our politicians no matter what party.
Quote: @"greediron" said:
@"Vikergirl" said:
He wants a labor force he can control and doesn't want protections for. Look at China and the lack of freedom. There is a philosophy that is not supposed to be allowed since 2021 but is still occurring. It is called 996. It means working from 9am-9pm 6 days a week. Is this something that could or should be adopted in the United States? I would say no, others may disagree. Calling workers lazy is not at all helpful. China has had high suicide rates due to toxic work culture.
Wish more people would be willing to criticize China and ALL the mega corps that build their stuff on slave labor. Apple, Intel, NBA... Wish anyone gave a rats ass about the genocide going on over there with the Uyghurs and even the Chinese in Shanghai. But it probably would be hypocritical to type up a mean tweet on the apple iphone...
But this is exactly why I don't give a rats ass about Musk. The left now hates him and many on the right think he is 'one of us' when the truth is somewhere in the middle. He is a genius that has made lots of money off govt subsidies of environment disaster battery operated cars. So, yeah just like the rest of the oligarchs, he is a hypocrite.
Yeah that would be hypocritical, the United States can only say so much about China since so many products that we use everyday come from there. The corporations use cheap foreign labor to make more money, Musk is an example of exploiting cheap labor. It is awful and scary what is happening to the Uyghurs. So many corporations use the subsidies, no one seems to care that corporate welfare is a thing.
Quote: @"greediron" said:
@"Vikergirl" said:
He wants a labor force he can control and doesn't want protections for. Look at China and the lack of freedom. There is a philosophy that is not supposed to be allowed since 2021 but is still occurring. It is called 996. It means working from 9am-9pm 6 days a week. Is this something that could or should be adopted in the United States? I would say no, others may disagree. Calling workers lazy is not at all helpful. China has had high suicide rates due to toxic work culture.
Wish more people would be willing to criticize China and ALL the mega corps that build their stuff on slave labor.
It sounds like you really have no idea exactly HOW many U.S. companies get their stuff manufactured and shipped from Asia. If you think its just the 'MEGA' corps, you are in for a huge surprise. All of these 'patriotic' companies like Home Depot, Lowes, Tractor Supply, etc. get a shit ton of product either directly from China on their own private label products (Kobalt for Lowes, Husky for Home Depot) or deal with companies that import at least some, if not most of their product from China. Air compressors, power tools, wet saws, tile cutters, etc. ...you know, all of those manly blue collar type tools the country music listeners and singers love while singing God Bless America....China. And much smaller companies do the same thing and save money but obviously, the more product you order the higher the savings. Doesn't have to be a Home Depot. You buy products by containers to ship from Asia. A container used to cost around $3000 for a container full of say, wet saws to ship. Now it costs around $24,000 per container. There's a global transportation crisis.
The only reason China is where they are is because of American corporations. Period. So who's deserving of the criticism again?? Just Apple and Intel? Hardly. And the Chinese companies that have popped up to sell directly into the U.S. market got all their engineering and know-how from American companies. It was just handed over to them to manufacture. And also blame the everyday American consumer: as much as they raise that flag and say they'll 'Buy American Made', you know what the reality is? They won't. Because it costs more. 8 out of 10 Americans say'll they want to buy a product made in the USA. That goes down to 4.5 out of 10 if that item costs 18% more. Want to know who is contributing more to the downfall of rural society here domestically than any corporation? The dollar store channel. They are devastating what remains of the small businesses. They are popping up everywhere, selling dirt cheap garbage.
Quote: @"StickyBun" said:
@"greediron" said:
@"Vikergirl" said:
He wants a labor force he can control and doesn't want protections for. Look at China and the lack of freedom. There is a philosophy that is not supposed to be allowed since 2021 but is still occurring. It is called 996. It means working from 9am-9pm 6 days a week. Is this something that could or should be adopted in the United States? I would say no, others may disagree. Calling workers lazy is not at all helpful. China has had high suicide rates due to toxic work culture.
Wish more people would be willing to criticize China and ALL the mega corps that build their stuff on slave labor.
It sounds like you really have no idea exactly HOW many U.S. companies get their stuff manufactured and shipped from Asia. If you think its just the 'MEGA' corps, you are in for a huge surprise. All of these 'patriotic' companies like Home Depot, Lowes, Tractor Supply, etc. get a shit ton of product either directly from China on their own private label products (Kobalt for Lowes, Husky for Home Depot) or deal with companies that import at least some, if not most of their product from China. Air compressors, power tools, wet saws, tile cutters, etc. ...you know, all of those manly blue collar type tools the country music listeners and singers love while singing God Bless America....China. And much smaller companies do the same thing and save money but obviously, the more product you order the higher the savings. Doesn't have to be a Home Depot. You buy products by containers to ship from Asia. A container used to cost around $3000 for a container full of say, wet saws to ship. Now it costs around $24,000 per container. There's a global transportation crisis.
The only reason China is where they are is because of American corporations. Period. So who's deserving of the criticism again?? Just Apple and Intel? Hardly. And the Chinese companies that have popped up to sell directly into the U.S. market got all their engineering and know-how from American companies. It was just handed over to them to manufacture. And also blame the everyday American consumer: as much as they raise that flag and say they'll 'Buy American Made', you know what the reality is? They won't. Because it costs more. 8 out of 10 Americans say'll they want to buy a product made in the USA. That goes down to 4.5 out of 10 if that item costs 18% more. Want to know who is contributing more to the downfall of rural society here domestically than any corporation? The dollar store channel. They are devastating what remains of the small businesses. They are popping up everywhere, selling dirt cheap garbage.
AGREE totally with your sentiment, blame definitely falls on the American consumer as well as the Americans supplying them.
Question, is it just country music man's that can use air compressors and wet saws, or can I crank the motorhead while framing up a new garage? :p
Quote: @"JimmyinSD" said:
@"StickyBun" said:
@"greediron" said:
@"Vikergirl" said:
He wants a labor force he can control and doesn't want protections for. Look at China and the lack of freedom. There is a philosophy that is not supposed to be allowed since 2021 but is still occurring. It is called 996. It means working from 9am-9pm 6 days a week. Is this something that could or should be adopted in the United States? I would say no, others may disagree. Calling workers lazy is not at all helpful. China has had high suicide rates due to toxic work culture.
Wish more people would be willing to criticize China and ALL the mega corps that build their stuff on slave labor.
It sounds like you really have no idea exactly HOW many U.S. companies get their stuff manufactured and shipped from Asia. If you think its just the 'MEGA' corps, you are in for a huge surprise. All of these 'patriotic' companies like Home Depot, Lowes, Tractor Supply, etc. get a shit ton of product either directly from China on their own private label products (Kobalt for Lowes, Husky for Home Depot) or deal with companies that import at least some, if not most of their product from China. Air compressors, power tools, wet saws, tile cutters, etc. ...you know, all of those manly blue collar type tools the country music listeners and singers love while singing God Bless America....China. And much smaller companies do the same thing and save money but obviously, the more product you order the higher the savings. Doesn't have to be a Home Depot. You buy products by containers to ship from Asia. A container used to cost around $3000 for a container full of say, wet saws to ship. Now it costs around $24,000 per container. There's a global transportation crisis.
The only reason China is where they are is because of American corporations. Period. So who's deserving of the criticism again?? Just Apple and Intel? Hardly. And the Chinese companies that have popped up to sell directly into the U.S. market got all their engineering and know-how from American companies. It was just handed over to them to manufacture. And also blame the everyday American consumer: as much as they raise that flag and say they'll 'Buy American Made', you know what the reality is? They won't. Because it costs more. 8 out of 10 Americans say'll they want to buy a product made in the USA. That goes down to 4.5 out of 10 if that item costs 18% more. Want to know who is contributing more to the downfall of rural society here domestically than any corporation? The dollar store channel. They are devastating what remains of the small businesses. They are popping up everywhere, selling dirt cheap garbage.
AGREE totally with your sentiment, blame definitely falls on the American consumer as well as the Americans supplying them.
Question, is it just country music man's that can use air compressors and wet saws, or can I crank the motorhead while framing up a new garage? :p
Crank it up! :p
Bottom line: no other entity has done a better job of harming American values and culture than American corporations.
Quote: @"Vikergirl" said:
@"greediron" said:
@"Vikergirl" said:
He wants a labor force he can control and doesn't want protections for. Look at China and the lack of freedom. There is a philosophy that is not supposed to be allowed since 2021 but is still occurring. It is called 996. It means working from 9am-9pm 6 days a week. Is this something that could or should be adopted in the United States? I would say no, others may disagree. Calling workers lazy is not at all helpful. China has had high suicide rates due to toxic work culture.
Wish more people would be willing to criticize China and ALL the mega corps that build their stuff on slave labor. Apple, Intel, NBA... Wish anyone gave a rats ass about the genocide going on over there with the Uyghurs and even the Chinese in Shanghai. But it probably would be hypocritical to type up a mean tweet on the apple iphone...
But this is exactly why I don't give a rats ass about Musk. The left now hates him and many on the right think he is 'one of us' when the truth is somewhere in the middle. He is a genius that has made lots of money off govt subsidies of environment disaster battery operated cars. So, yeah just like the rest of the oligarchs, he is a hypocrite.
Yeah that would be hypocritical, the United States can only say so much about China since so many products that we use everyday come from there. The corporations use cheap foreign labor to make more money, Musk is an example of exploiting cheap labor. It is awful and scary what is happening to the Uyghurs. So many corporations use the subsidies, no one seems to care that corporate welfare is a thing.
When you frame it like "Musk is an example of exploiting cheap labor" you are putting the blame on Musk, and removing it from yourself/ourselves. Musk is following the rules that our government put in place on our behalf. We have declared what is appropriate behavior and he is following it. When you say that "no one seems to care", that is the crux of the matter. In areas of our life where we don't care, we are allowing others to shape what happens to us.
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