Quote: @greediron said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ greediron said:
Well by that thinking, we don't need linemen, they never score, don't gain any yards and just take up space.
Racking up stats because the D stays on the field sucking is a great way to prove how valuable they are. It is like getting lots of offensive rebounds because you brick so many gimmies.
if Barr gets shitty stats because teams game plan to avoid him... .what does that say about all the other studs in the NFL that put up the big numbers to justify their contracts? do the opposing coaches overlook their abilities and ignore that they can change games almost at will? I dont buy it, other stud LBs get sacks, tackles, picks, forced fumbles, passes defended etc, and they are likely game planned for more than Barr.
Lots of DBs get huge contracts specifically because teams stay away from them. It isn't a hard concept to imagine, the D performs better with Barr out there. I have seen some claims that Vigil is performing very poorly on run defense. Our stout D line is obviously routing the runners to the edge, and there it breaks down.
different position, different results. Barr plays at the LOS and should be getting his share of tackles, sacks, FF, and other LB metrics that he doesnt in comparison to those that have taken his place, as well as other premier LBs. not worth arguing, if you want to think he is a value, thats your prerogative, personally I think Zimmer blows him up because he was a reach when we picked him and he has never panned out as anticipated, and it was Zimmers first player selected.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ greediron said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ greediron said:
Well by that thinking, we don't need linemen, they never score, don't gain any yards and just take up space.
Racking up stats because the D stays on the field sucking is a great way to prove how valuable they are. It is like getting lots of offensive rebounds because you brick so many gimmies.
if Barr gets shitty stats because teams game plan to avoid him... .what does that say about all the other studs in the NFL that put up the big numbers to justify their contracts? do the opposing coaches overlook their abilities and ignore that they can change games almost at will? I dont buy it, other stud LBs get sacks, tackles, picks, forced fumbles, passes defended etc, and they are likely game planned for more than Barr.
Lots of DBs get huge contracts specifically because teams stay away from them. It isn't a hard concept to imagine, the D performs better with Barr out there. I have seen some claims that Vigil is performing very poorly on run defense. Our stout D line is obviously routing the runners to the edge, and there it breaks down.
different position, different results. Barr plays at the LOS and should be getting his share of tackles, sacks, FF, and other LB metrics that he doesnt in comparison to those that have taken his place, as well as other premier LBs. not worth arguing, if you want to think he is a value, thats your prerogative, personally I think Zimmer blows him up because he was a reach when we picked him and he has never panned out as anticipated, and it was Zimmers first player selected.
So a star player that got a large offer from another team in free agency, considered valuable by respected football minds gets a large contract by the Vikings because the head coach has a self defeating stubborn streak to make his D worse.
If I could meme, it would be FANS sweating over which button/variation to chose.
Quote: @greediron said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ greediron said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ greediron said:
Well by that thinking, we don't need linemen, they never score, don't gain any yards and just take up space.
Racking up stats because the D stays on the field sucking is a great way to prove how valuable they are. It is like getting lots of offensive rebounds because you brick so many gimmies.
if Barr gets shitty stats because teams game plan to avoid him... .what does that say about all the other studs in the NFL that put up the big numbers to justify their contracts? do the opposing coaches overlook their abilities and ignore that they can change games almost at will? I dont buy it, other stud LBs get sacks, tackles, picks, forced fumbles, passes defended etc, and they are likely game planned for more than Barr.
Lots of DBs get huge contracts specifically because teams stay away from them. It isn't a hard concept to imagine, the D performs better with Barr out there. I have seen some claims that Vigil is performing very poorly on run defense. Our stout D line is obviously routing the runners to the edge, and there it breaks down.
different position, different results. Barr plays at the LOS and should be getting his share of tackles, sacks, FF, and other LB metrics that he doesnt in comparison to those that have taken his place, as well as other premier LBs. not worth arguing, if you want to think he is a value, thats your prerogative, personally I think Zimmer blows him up because he was a reach when we picked him and he has never panned out as anticipated, and it was Zimmers first player selected.
So a star player that got a large offer from another team in free agency, considered valuable by respected football minds gets a large contract by the Vikings because the head coach has a self defeating stubborn streak to make his D worse.
If I could meme, it would be FANS sweating over which button/variation to chose.
go ahead and show me then what it is exactly that he does, that the other guys dont, that doesnt show up on any metric of measuring positional success. the second no name replacement is putting up similar or better numbers, it should be easy to show what Barr does so well that Wilson and Vigil are lacking since respected football minds are supporting that position. I will say that we seem to be more vulnerable to outside runs that I recall from last year, so that might be an easy knock on Vigil vs Wilson, he isnt making the play at the LOS.
Quote: @greediron said:
A simple test. How have the defenses ranked with Barr and without Barr?
Maybe a bit simplistic, but it deserves to be asked.
Barr Grades:
2020 - 47.5
2019 - 60.6
2018 - 70.9
2017 -71.5
2016 - 50.6
2015 - 90.1
2014 - 70.4
Vikings Team Defense Points Against
2020 - 28th
2019 - 8th
2018 - 4th
2017 - 1st
2016 - 6th
2015 - 5th
2014 - 11th
According to PFF: Barr has had one "Elite" year, three "Starter" years, one "Backup" year, and two "Replaceable years.
Quote: @Hawkvike25 said:
@ greediron said:
A simple test. How have the defenses ranked with Barr and without Barr?
Maybe a bit simplistic, but it deserves to be asked.
Barr Grades:
2020 - 47.5
2019 - 60.6
2018 - 70.9
2017 -71.5
2016 - 50.6
2015 - 90.1
2014 - 70.4
Vikings Team Defense Points Against
2020 - 28th
2019 - 8th
2018 - 4th
2017 - 1st
2016 - 6th
2015 - 5th
2014 - 11th
According to PFF: Barr has had one "Elite" year, three "Starter" years, one "Backup" year, and two "Replaceable years.
Don't think 2020 really counts cuz he was hurt. If Barr had a "replaceable year" it was because he had to be replaced. Like Hunter, Pierce, Kendricks and many others.
And if you notice, the defence was always top 10 except his first year. So a high priced player on a top 10 defense, usually top 5, might have something to do with it. Just my random speculation. But trust the eyes of the fans, cuz they never deceive.
Quote: @greediron said:
@ Hawkvike25 said:
@ greediron said:
A simple test. How have the defenses ranked with Barr and without Barr?
Maybe a bit simplistic, but it deserves to be asked.
Barr Grades:
2020 - 47.5
2019 - 60.6
2018 - 70.9
2017 -71.5
2016 - 50.6
2015 - 90.1
2014 - 70.4
Vikings Team Defense Points Against
2020 - 28th
2019 - 8th
2018 - 4th
2017 - 1st
2016 - 6th
2015 - 5th
2014 - 11th
According to PFF: Barr has had one "Elite" year, three "Starter" years, one "Backup" year, and two "Replaceable years.
Don't think 2020 really counts cuz he was hurt. If Barr had a "replaceable year" it was because he had to be replaced. Like Hunter, Pierce, Kendricks and many others.
And if you notice, the defence was always top 10 except his first year. So a high priced player on a top 10 defense, usually top 5, might have something to do with it. Just my random speculation. But trust the eyes of the fans, cuz they never deceive.
I think a high priced player has nothing to do with generating a top 10 defense. His grades clearly show his average is just a starter. Plus, I think we all know guys like Kendricks, Hunter, Griffen, Harrison Smith, and a couple of years from Anthony Harris is why the defense ranked so consistently high.
His price tag is clearly above what he produces on the field and thats from the experts, not just the fans.
Quote: @Hawkvike25 said:
@ greediron said:
@ Hawkvike25 said:
@ greediron said:
A simple test. How have the defenses ranked with Barr and without Barr?
Maybe a bit simplistic, but it deserves to be asked.
Barr Grades:
2020 - 47.5
2019 - 60.6
2018 - 70.9
2017 -71.5
2016 - 50.6
2015 - 90.1
2014 - 70.4
Vikings Team Defense Points Against
2020 - 28th
2019 - 8th
2018 - 4th
2017 - 1st
2016 - 6th
2015 - 5th
2014 - 11th
According to PFF: Barr has had one "Elite" year, three "Starter" years, one "Backup" year, and two "Replaceable years.
Don't think 2020 really counts cuz he was hurt. If Barr had a "replaceable year" it was because he had to be replaced. Like Hunter, Pierce, Kendricks and many others.
And if you notice, the defence was always top 10 except his first year. So a high priced player on a top 10 defense, usually top 5, might have something to do with it. Just my random speculation. But trust the eyes of the fans, cuz they never deceive.
I think a high priced player has nothing to do with generating a top 10 defense. His grades clearly show his average is just a starter. Plus, I think we all know guys like Kendricks, Hunter, Griffen, Harrison Smith, and a couple of years from Anthony Harris is why the defense ranked so consistently high.
His price tag is clearly above what he produces on the field and thats from the experts, not just the fans.
PFF grades hardly are the end all of player evaluation. If the ordinary fan doesn't know what Barr does, why would the idiots at PFF know?
Quote: @greediron said:
@ Hawkvike25 said:
@ greediron said:
@ Hawkvike25 said:
@ greediron said:
A simple test. How have the defenses ranked with Barr and without Barr?
Maybe a bit simplistic, but it deserves to be asked.
Barr Grades:
2020 - 47.5
2019 - 60.6
2018 - 70.9
2017 -71.5
2016 - 50.6
2015 - 90.1
2014 - 70.4
Vikings Team Defense Points Against
2020 - 28th
2019 - 8th
2018 - 4th
2017 - 1st
2016 - 6th
2015 - 5th
2014 - 11th
According to PFF: Barr has had one "Elite" year, three "Starter" years, one "Backup" year, and two "Replaceable years.
Don't think 2020 really counts cuz he was hurt. If Barr had a "replaceable year" it was because he had to be replaced. Like Hunter, Pierce, Kendricks and many others.
And if you notice, the defence was always top 10 except his first year. So a high priced player on a top 10 defense, usually top 5, might have something to do with it. Just my random speculation. But trust the eyes of the fans, cuz they never deceive.
I think a high priced player has nothing to do with generating a top 10 defense. His grades clearly show his average is just a starter. Plus, I think we all know guys like Kendricks, Hunter, Griffen, Harrison Smith, and a couple of years from Anthony Harris is why the defense ranked so consistently high.
His price tag is clearly above what he produces on the field and thats from the experts, not just the fans.
PFF grades hardly are the end all of player evaluation. If the ordinary fan doesn't know what Barr does, why would the idiots at PFF know?
It certainly isnt but it’s used by NBC sports on Sunday Night Football and amongst other outlets, not to mention thousands of people pay for the subscription so they defintely know more than you and myself.
I’m not a smart guy but when I see a respected and widely used source, though not always right, statistically tell me that a guy is insanely overpaid, I am probably going to believe them. Especially when I see it with my own eyes too
That was a hell of an INT by Vigil. As good as you'll see any LB make. I do think Barr is talented, but its awfully expensive to see it on the bench for so long.
Happy with the Vigil signing, but he plays WLB in base. Barr plays SLB. In nickel, he plays Barr's role though.
There have been many smart articles by much smarter people than me who have made good Xs and Os arguments about why Anthony Barr is the most underrated member of a Mike Zimmer defense. You can Google them if you want. But Zimmer has argued similar points several times--that Barr calls the huddle, sets the fronts and the pressures.
"I know some people might look at Pro Football Focus grades and stuff, but they really don’t know what we ask him to do." --Zim on Barr.
So you either fans and PFF know more about a Mike Zimmer defense than Mike Zimmer does, or Zimmer is lying for whatever reason. One of these seems a little more likely.
“I know a lot of laymen don’t understand this, but Anthony is a guy that every team that we play game plans for,” Zimmer said. “There’s not one team – there might have been one team last year that didn’t, and we got 10 sacks. They all game plan for him.”
Some good examples...
https://twitter.com/LukeBraunNFL/status/...56160?s=20
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