Quote: @"pattersaur" said:
I think Rick Spielman is a good drafter too. But his player trades are kind of... universally terrible?
BradfordNgakoueDiggsVedvik
Off the top of my head. Hopefully I'm forgetting some good ones.
I would add the Harvin and Diggs trades, and my main criticism in each is that he traded them when the entire league knew he had to move them. That said, in each case he did get enough to replace the player who forced the trade, and not everyone gets anything back when someone demands getting out. I still don't like that we traded Diggs, but luckily we seem to have come out even.
Quote: @"pattersaur" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
put Cousins on the trading block now... offer to pay part of his salary to any team that takes him off our hands for next year. we are stuck with that 20 million hit, but if we could sweeten the deal for a team to grab him this year if we agree to pay 7.5 million of his contract for next year (that lowers his cap hit for whatever team to takes him to 14.5 million (pretty attractive at that price IMO) then we would save that additional 7.5 million and possibly get enough interest to get back a day 2 pick?
is this possible? plausible?
I don't think the NFL is like the MLB. I'm pretty sure the Vikings aren't allowed to offer to pay a portion of his remaining salary.
If that was the case, the Jets could have gotten something for Leveon Bell, rather than having to release him and void his deal.
Sometimes, teams pay a player a big signing bonus and a low base salary. That player then is easy to trade, because the first team has already paid most of the money. But I'm pretty sure teams can't just say, "we'll eat half of the future money on this boneheaded deal we signed, if you pay the other half."
At least that's how I understand it. So yeah, the Vikings are in quite the pickle.
I think they can convert part of that salary to a signing bonus though and don't need the players permission. So they just flip that 7.5 over to a signing bonus and the result is the same.
Quote: @"JimmyinSD" said:
@"pattersaur" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
put Cousins on the trading block now... offer to pay part of his salary to any team that takes him off our hands for next year. we are stuck with that 20 million hit, but if we could sweeten the deal for a team to grab him this year if we agree to pay 7.5 million of his contract for next year (that lowers his cap hit for whatever team to takes him to 14.5 million (pretty attractive at that price IMO) then we would save that additional 7.5 million and possibly get enough interest to get back a day 2 pick?
is this possible? plausible?
I don't think the NFL is like the MLB. I'm pretty sure the Vikings aren't allowed to offer to pay a portion of his remaining salary.
If that was the case, the Jets could have gotten something for Leveon Bell, rather than having to release him and void his deal.
Sometimes, teams pay a player a big signing bonus and a low base salary. That player then is easy to trade, because the first team has already paid most of the money. But I'm pretty sure teams can't just say, "we'll eat half of the future money on this boneheaded deal we signed, if you pay the other half."
At least that's how I understand it. So yeah, the Vikings are in quite the pickle.
I think they can convert part of that salary to a signing bonus though and don't need the players permission. So they just flip that 7.5 over to a signing bonus and the result is the same.
The Eagles paid about half of Bradford's salary when we traded for him in 2016, and I think it was through the signing bonus method you describe. Reportedly the Eagles would have taken a 2nd for him, but the price went to a 1st due to them paying his salary. So we effectively sold draft capital to offset cost and cap hit.
Quote: @"Jor-El" said:
@"pattersaur" said:
I think Rick Spielman is a good drafter too. But his player trades are kind of... universally terrible?
BradfordNgakoueDiggsVedvik
Off the top of my head. Hopefully I'm forgetting some good ones.
I would add the Harvin and Diggs trades, and my main criticism in each is that he traded them when the entire league knew he had to move them. That said, in each case he did get enough to replace the player who forced the trade, and not everyone gets anything back when someone demands getting out. I still don't like that we traded Diggs, but luckily we seem to have come out even.
You don't need to add Diggs, I said him! 
Quote: @"StickyBun" said:
And so it begins: traded Ngakoue to Baltimore. Should see more trades, they are tossing in the towel as they should.
Sure makes that win against Houston suck even more.
Quote: @"MaroonBells" said:
@"StickyBun" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"StickyBun" said:
I'm sure Zimmer is not interested in this as he can start to see the writing on the wall. He'll be 65 years old before the start of next season. But its exactly what the franchise needs to do. You don't need a new HC and GM to draft the QB of the future, in fact, Minnesota drafting one this Spring makes it more attractive to potential HC candidates for 2022. Because Z ain't getting fired this year, nor is Spielman.
Here's the perfect scenario: clear some players/space before trade deadline/offseason, cut Cousins before June, sign a vet bandaid to start, draft a QB to sit and learn and fire Z and Spielman after 2021 season and bring in the next whiz kid. The table will be set with cap space and still have some talent on the team that will continue to be loaded via the draft. I like Cousins, but that experiment failed ultimately. They took a swing.
Yeah, the next "whiz kid." I LOVE that guy.
We may fire Zimmer. In fact, he may retire. He's already 8 years older than Bud Grant was when he retired, which sort of blows my mind.
But if we fire Spielman, it will be the biggest blunder this team has made since the days of Mike Lynn. You like getting guys like Justin Jefferson, Dalvin Cook, Eric Kendricks, Danielle Hunter, Stefon Diggs? Say goodbye to that. Because it's not typical.
Take it from a guy who follows the draft like a religion, very few teams draft like the Vikings have under Spielman. And remember what it was like before him. Willie Offord, Micheal Boireau, Roanall Smith, Williamson, etc.
The biggest problem on this team is not the acquisition of talent; it's taking that talent and getting them ready to play in big games and small. We didn't lose to the Eagles in the NFCC three years ago because we were less talented then them. We lost because we were out game planned. We didn't lose to the 49ers or the Packers and/or the Bears last year because we were less talented than them. We lost mostly because we were out game planned.
No, dumping Rick would be like overheating on the highway and getting out and changing your tire.
At some point, you have to want more. So is it the chicken or the egg? The players or the coaching? Look at how badly the Patriots draft, yet how many Superbowls? And conversely, look at how well Spielman can draft (sometimes), 0 Superbowls. There have been some shitty draft classes on his watch. Player evaluations are seriously overrated except one area: QB. And Spielman is sorely lacking there. Spielman has been in the player personnel game for over 20 years in the NFL, no Superbowls. Can you say Rick Spielman is a great selector of head coaches? Nope. Offensive linemen? Absolutely not.
I don't dislike Spielman or Zimmer, but at some point how long do you give them? I'm asking.
Go here: http://www.drafthistory.com/
Check out the draft classes of every NFL team in the last several years. There are hits, misses, busts and "shitty draft classes" for every single NFL team. It's why they call the draft a crapshoot. But, on balance, if you compare drafts fairly, objectively, Rick holds up incredibly well. Easily within the top 5 to 7 GMs. Personally, I think he's the best drafting GM in the NFL, but if I said that, too many heads would explode and someone would have to swab the decks.
People call out Laquon Treadwell as a terrible pick and he was. But they don't seem to realize that every single team in the NFL has picks like that. N'Keal Harry, Corey Davis, John Ross, Corey Coleman, Josh Doctson, Kevin White, Nelson Agholor, Breshad Perriman, Phililp Dorsett, Kelvin Benjamin, Tavon Austin, Justin Blackmon, Michael Floyd, Kendall Wright, AJ Jenkins, Jonathan Baldwin, Darrius Heyward Bey, Jeremy Maclin, Hakeem Nicks, Kenny Britt....all 1st rounders....all busts. And that's just one position.
People talk about Pat Elflein as a bust. Really? He was a 3rd rounder. Don't make me do a list of 3rd rounders who aren't even playing in the NFL anymore. And for every Elflein, we got a Hunter or a Mattison or a McKinnon.
I would suck if the ownership of this team overreacted, misread its faults, and discarded the ONE thing it seems to do pretty well.
Well said but what is the number one goal for any GM of an NFL team?
Isn't it getting to the Super Bowl and winning it? This is a rhetorical question.
How long should a GM get to achieve this goal?
When should an owner decide it is time for a fresh perspective?
Spielman's ultimate goal has yet to be achieved and drafting "well" is not good enough.
It shouldn't be for a team that has NEVER won a Super Bowl.
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media3.giphy.com/media/l3vRidFeUca8QZ9Be/giphy.gif)
Quote: @"pattersaur" said:
I think Rick Spielman is a good drafter too. But his player trades are kind of... universally terrible?
BradfordNgakoueDiggsVedvik
Off the top of my head. Hopefully I'm forgetting some good ones.
What are you talking about?
Bradford, They got a starting QB on the last day of training camp after our current starter's leg fell off in practice. That requires draft capitalNgakoue, completely agree. There should have not have been a trade for him.Diggs, He wanted out, we got Jefferson who is younger and might even end up better.
Vedvik, we needed to try something at kicking. Not really faulting them for trying.
How are the Harvin and Diggs trades bad trades?? The guys didn't want to be here and the league knew it but he still got a 1st round pick for both of them. Two or three years after trading Harvin, he was out of the league.
Quote: @"nawlinsvike" said:
How are the Harvin and Diggs trades bad trades?? The guys didn't want to be here and the league knew it but he still got a 1st round pick for both of them. Two or three years after trading Harvin, he was out of the league.
Not only that but he only played a few games for the sea-chickens. We absolutely hit it out of the park on the Harvin trade.
Quote: @"AGRforever" said:
@"pattersaur" said:
I think Rick Spielman is a good drafter too. But his player trades are kind of... universally terrible?
BradfordNgakoueDiggsVedvik
Off the top of my head. Hopefully I'm forgetting some good ones.
What are you talking about?
Bradford, They got a starting QB on the last day of training camp after our current starter's leg fell off in practice. That requires draft capitalNgakoue, completely agree. There should have not have been a trade for him.Diggs, He wanted out, we got Jefferson who is younger and might even end up better.
Vedvik, we needed to try something at kicking. Not really faulting them for trying.
Jefferson- great pick. I said Rick's a good drafter. But trading a homegrown star on a team-friendly deal is not something I'd consider a "win". I guess Rick did what he could but I'd still call that neutral at best. I don't Buffalo is having any regrets.
The Bradford and Vedvik trades were terrible. If we're going to give Rick "credit for trying" for every bad deal he makes then yes I guess he's doing great!
I forgot about the Harvin deal and I didn't mention that one. You're right that was a good move for us, for sure.
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