Philly lost two OTs. My guess is OT5 goes here.
Quote: @"FSUVike" said:
Too many suggestions about standing Pat at 22 and trading down out of 25 to load up.
The Team lost 2 DEs, 2 Safeties, 3 CBs, an RG and a WR. They also need a true 3T and LG. Not all the lost need replacing. For example, Samia is expected to take Kline's spot. And obviously they weren't all Starters.
But that's still at least 8 Players needing to be replaced. With very little cap space. Folks, as good as Spielman has been he's not landing that many contributors in a single Draft. Not even if he had 15 picks. It's a completely unrealistic ask. Hell, just coming away with 2 backup Safeties and 2 developmental DEs is a tall order.
This is a 2 year retool. Accept it. And once you truly do consider my point of view. Minnesota has 2 picks in the 1st Round, but they're both highly likely to be out of range to get a Blue Chip Prospect.
Trade Up! Use 22 and the 2nd to get high enough to get Kinlaw or an OT like Thomas or Wills. Get as close to a sure thing as you can and put a crucial position on lockdown for the next 7+ years.
Imagine having a Franchise LT. One who could either immediately force Reiff off of the Roster or marinate at LG for a year. Imagine having Richardson's pass rush up the gut without the awful run defense.
You can still load up on your Tier 2 Prospects by moving back from 25 and try to plug all the holes, as unlikely as that is. But for goodness sake let's fix a Tackle spot!
As for WRs, there's an absolute gap between Justin Jefferson and the next crop of guys like Mims, Shenault, Aiyuk, VJ, Reagor, etc. Just like there's a gap between them and Johnson and Cephus et al. JJ belongs in the conversation with Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs and I personally have him over Ruggs, who isn't exactly a master of the Route Tree.
And speaking of that Tree, Mims has run about as much of it as Will Fullet did. He's got a measurably higher ceiling but that same lower floor because of it. Fuller was not worth a 1st so far in his career. I like Mims a lot more but I would be terrified of taking him on the 1st.
Finally, in a historic WR Class you might want to think long and hard about taking two. Bisi is a WR4. Bebe is always hurt. Hollis is project. Sharpe is a flyer. Thielen is over 30 and coming off the type of injury that tends to recur in aging Receivers. Why not take advantage of the unique group of double dip?
I just cant accept a retool year, too damn old and waited too long. If we suck 6-10 or worse and are forced into it it would be easier. We have a proven coaching staff and enough supposed studs to retool on the fly ala Seattle.
I’m totally on board with the trade up for impact at OT or DT but i dont think 58 and 22 will get us far enough up. Plus the chances of someone moving us off those picks is somewhat slim.
Thats why Im thinking if we stand pat, that 2 picks like Gallimore and Murray or maybe Ruiz, those with high floors that specifically help in what we are built for (Stop the run and Run) along with plugging a large gap with someone like DK at corner or another tier 2 FA at WR or G, will keep us in the hunt this year
Quote: @"Bullazin" said:
I just cant accept a retool year, too damn old and waited too long. If we suck 6-10 or worse and are forced into it it would be easier. We have a proven coaching staff and enough supposed studs to retool on the fly ala Seattle.
I’m totally on board with the trade up for impact at OT or DT but i dont think 58 and 22 will get us far enough up. Plus the chances of someone moving us off those picks is somewhat slim.
Thats why Im thinking if we stand pat, that 2 picks like Gallimore and Murray or maybe Ruiz, those with high floors that specifically help in what we are built for (Stop the run and Run) along with plugging a large gap with someone like DK at corner or another tier 2 FA at WR or G, will keep us in the hunt this year
They're offering Tier 2 guys the vet minimum. That's not going to attract much.
Look, I want to win the Super Bowl this year as much as anyone. But I'm a Realist. The Starters at CB are Hughes and Hill, who've never come close to logging Starter minutes so it's a reach to predict that each can, and will play at least League Average in the process. Any CB they Draft will not be a Blue Chipper and will face growing pains.
That's literally the youngest CB Corps in the League. The potential is there: Hughes a 1st Round pick that flashed signs of developing faster than Waynes. IF he can stay healthy. Hill was a steal and also flashed, though in far less reps. IF he can stay clean off the field. The Rookie, regardless of whom it is, will face a learning curve. Even with Harris back there to bail them out they are going to make mistakes and give up chunk plays. It will look a lot like last year except this group can only get better and is way, way cheaper.
Even if you add a Tier 3 FA like Kirkpatrick it won't change the fact that 3 out of your Top 4 CBs are green as hell. Even playing mostly Zone their going to have some struggles.
Ifeadi Odenigbo has also never logged Starter minutes. Zettel will spell him some, but that's not his forte. Hunter also has nobody to spell him. Unless Griff comes back a Rookie will get significant snaps. And possibly two Rookies.
Pierce was a nice signing but he's absolutely not at the level Joseph was when he came to Minnesota and he has some question marks in terms of conditioning, reps he can play in a season, lack of any pass rush, etc. JJ and Shamar are good rotational pieces so NT looks good, though.
But 3T is a problem. Shamar was average against the run and does nada as a rusher, which hurts Hunter. Watts looked good, but in limited reps. This position needs a massive upgrade. Which is no guarantee even with a 1st Round pick.
There are way more good DEs in football than there are true pass rushing 3Ts that are also good against the run. Brown and Kinlaw project much higher to do that successfully than Blacklock, Gallimore (still a NT to me), Madubuike, etc. Just because you spend 22 or 25 on a kid does not mean you're going to see the kind of production you would hope for from a 1st Round pick. The Kevin Williams of the world are few and far between and even KC didn't truly know Chris Jones would (eventually) turn into a monster.
On Offense there have only been 20 or so Rookies to go for a thousand yards ever. Replacing Diggs production will need to be done by committee. The problem with that is Stefon was Top 5 in catches over 20 yards last year. Bisi, Irv and Sharpe are factually not deep threat guys. Hollis is still in the incubator. Even with a great pick in the Draft this Offense simply will not be as much of a threat deep. Period. And that will allow Defenses to stack the box against Cook. So you'd better be ready to perform better against that box than in 2019.
The problem there is that the best interior Lineman is no longer on the team. The Center should make a nice jump but he'll be playing with an inexperienced RG and likely a Rookie LG. Again, learning curves. There will be missed blitz pickups. Missed assignments against stunts. Inconsistent play. And it won't be because they aren't talented. It will be because they are Young.
You can't expect Spielman to find that many kids who can contribute both from the standpoint of adding Starters and Rotational Depth, from 1 Draft. The team is as likely to end up with more Jaleel Johnson types that are OK but that's it versus guys like Hunter. Or worse, outright flops like Jalyn Holmes. Or Willie Beavers.
My point is not to ding Rick for those picks. He's actually quite good at drafting. My point is it's projecting how young adults will develop, which is an inexact science. If half the kids he picks this month end up contributing at ANY point, let alone as Rookies, it will be an unequivocally great Draft. And that's nowhere near enough to plug all the holes and contend again this year.
I'm content with 7-9. Anything better would be icing on the cake. Less or even much less wouldn't surprise me at all. An injury-riddled year resulting in the inexperienced depth or street FAs seeing extensive time could easily put this franchise in a position to pick Top 10 or higher in 2021. That was a Realistic breakdown of each positional Unit that saw major defections this offseason. Not pessimism.
The reasons for hope are Kubiak and knowing that after this painful offseason and likely growing pains-related upcoming season Minnesota will be out of cap hell and will have had a year to see which areas are developing on schedule and which areas need more Draft or Free Agent capital to shore up to hopefully reopen the window for 2021.
Quote: @"BarrNone55" said:
Philly lost two OTs. My guess is OT5 goes here.
Wha? They have a young 1st rounder on each side. Lane Johnson and Andre Dillard. They could use some depth, but that will come from the mid-to-late rounds. I'd shit a puppy if they took a tackle in the 1st :-)
If Jefferson goes, I don't like the value of the other receivers at 22. So I'd try to trade down and get the CB and the OL, then grab the receiver in round two.
If Pick 22 is unexciting, trade down at the top, and trade up at the bottom so you can grab as many picks between 30-100 as possible? Wait for droppers and trust your war room has done their job evaluating those guys?
Quote: @"TBro" said:
@"minny65" said:
@"TBro" said:
I think we all agree that we need to add a starting WR from this draft and I don't see the Vikings
trading up to get one in a very deep WR class. The question is, if Jefferson is gone by 22, who do
you grab, what do you like about your pick for the Vikings offense, and what round will you pull
the trigger on the 2nd Tier WR prospects? Trades are allowed, but you must match pick values.
Curious what your draft strategies would be, and in full disclosure I'm very bored at the moment.
Right now I am liking Mims better then Jefferson so I would take him at 22
If you really like Mims, I think you can wait until 25, or even do a small trade down to late in the first/early 2nd and still grab him. Yea I have converted to that approach over the last couple days. I am actually hoping we can make a move up around 15/16 if Kinlaw falls. I want interior lines not Tackles and DE but not a lot of G/C until later and a stud 3T like Kinlaw would go a long way to help the secondary. I hope Mims falls into the 2nd but I really don't want GB to grab him. At 6'3 and 4.38 speed and the best 3 cone in the draft at 6.66 I think he is star in the making. I know the knock on him is he doesn't run the whole tree but maybe Baylor didn't call for him to do that???
Quote: @"Bullazin" said:
@"FSUVike" said:
Too many suggestions about standing Pat at 22 and trading down out of 25 to load up.
The Team lost 2 DEs, 2 Safeties, 3 CBs, an RG and a WR. They also need a true 3T and LG. Not all the lost need replacing. For example, Samia is expected to take Kline's spot. And obviously they weren't all Starters.
But that's still at least 8 Players needing to be replaced. With very little cap space. Folks, as good as Spielman has been he's not landing that many contributors in a single Draft. Not even if he had 15 picks. It's a completely unrealistic ask. Hell, just coming away with 2 backup Safeties and 2 developmental DEs is a tall order.
This is a 2 year retool. Accept it. And once you truly do consider my point of view. Minnesota has 2 picks in the 1st Round, but they're both highly likely to be out of range to get a Blue Chip Prospect.
Trade Up! Use 22 and the 2nd to get high enough to get Kinlaw or an OT like Thomas or Wills. Get as close to a sure thing as you can and put a crucial position on lockdown for the next 7+ years.
Imagine having a Franchise LT. One who could either immediately force Reiff off of the Roster or marinate at LG for a year. Imagine having Richardson's pass rush up the gut without the awful run defense.
You can still load up on your Tier 2 Prospects by moving back from 25 and try to plug all the holes, as unlikely as that is. But for goodness sake let's fix a Tackle spot!
As for WRs, there's an absolute gap between Justin Jefferson and the next crop of guys like Mims, Shenault, Aiyuk, VJ, Reagor, etc. Just like there's a gap between them and Johnson and Cephus et al. JJ belongs in the conversation with Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs and I personally have him over Ruggs, who isn't exactly a master of the Route Tree.
And speaking of that Tree, Mims has run about as much of it as Will Fullet did. He's got a measurably higher ceiling but that same lower floor because of it. Fuller was not worth a 1st so far in his career. I like Mims a lot more but I would be terrified of taking him on the 1st.
Finally, in a historic WR Class you might want to think long and hard about taking two. Bisi is a WR4. Bebe is always hurt. Hollis is project. Sharpe is a flyer. Thielen is over 30 and coming off the type of injury that tends to recur in aging Receivers. Why not take advantage of the unique group of double dip?
I just cant accept a retool year, too damn old and waited too long. If we suck 6-10 or worse and are forced into it it would be easier. We have a proven coaching staff and enough supposed studs to retool on the fly ala Seattle.
I’m totally on board with the trade up for impact at OT or DT but i dont think 58 and 22 will get us far enough up. Plus the chances of someone moving us off those picks is somewhat slim.
Thats why Im thinking if we stand pat, that 2 picks like Gallimore and Murray or maybe Ruiz, those with high floors that specifically help in what we are built for (Stop the run and Run) along with plugging a large gap with someone like DK at corner or another tier 2 FA at WR or G, will keep us in the hunt this year
Seattle's retool "on the fly" has lasted 5 years and counting now. They have less cap space then we do and the Niners look like the superior team next year. If they're the model we're using for "how to retool", then I'm fine with blowing it up. Especially considering their QB is top 3, and much better than ours.
I agree with everyone wanting to trade up/trade down, work magic, etc. That is MUCH easier to do in an online mock than it is for the GM on the day of.
Last year the Raiders reached for some guy named Cleveland Feral at #4 because they couldn't find a trade down partner. I hope Rick is able to maneuver to maximize value too, but we should be prepared to watch a selection at 22, and a selection at 25... even if "value" says we should have done otherwise.
Quote: @"pattersaur" said:
@"Bullazin" said:
@"FSUVike" said:
Too many suggestions about standing Pat at 22 and trading down out of 25 to load up.
The Team lost 2 DEs, 2 Safeties, 3 CBs, an RG and a WR. They also need a true 3T and LG. Not all the lost need replacing. For example, Samia is expected to take Kline's spot. And obviously they weren't all Starters.
But that's still at least 8 Players needing to be replaced. With very little cap space. Folks, as good as Spielman has been he's not landing that many contributors in a single Draft. Not even if he had 15 picks. It's a completely unrealistic ask. Hell, just coming away with 2 backup Safeties and 2 developmental DEs is a tall order.
This is a 2 year retool. Accept it. And once you truly do consider my point of view. Minnesota has 2 picks in the 1st Round, but they're both highly likely to be out of range to get a Blue Chip Prospect.
Trade Up! Use 22 and the 2nd to get high enough to get Kinlaw or an OT like Thomas or Wills. Get as close to a sure thing as you can and put a crucial position on lockdown for the next 7+ years.
Imagine having a Franchise LT. One who could either immediately force Reiff off of the Roster or marinate at LG for a year. Imagine having Richardson's pass rush up the gut without the awful run defense.
You can still load up on your Tier 2 Prospects by moving back from 25 and try to plug all the holes, as unlikely as that is. But for goodness sake let's fix a Tackle spot!
As for WRs, there's an absolute gap between Justin Jefferson and the next crop of guys like Mims, Shenault, Aiyuk, VJ, Reagor, etc. Just like there's a gap between them and Johnson and Cephus et al. JJ belongs in the conversation with Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs and I personally have him over Ruggs, who isn't exactly a master of the Route Tree.
And speaking of that Tree, Mims has run about as much of it as Will Fullet did. He's got a measurably higher ceiling but that same lower floor because of it. Fuller was not worth a 1st so far in his career. I like Mims a lot more but I would be terrified of taking him on the 1st.
Finally, in a historic WR Class you might want to think long and hard about taking two. Bisi is a WR4. Bebe is always hurt. Hollis is project. Sharpe is a flyer. Thielen is over 30 and coming off the type of injury that tends to recur in aging Receivers. Why not take advantage of the unique group of double dip?
I just cant accept a retool year, too damn old and waited too long. If we suck 6-10 or worse and are forced into it it would be easier. We have a proven coaching staff and enough supposed studs to retool on the fly ala Seattle.
I’m totally on board with the trade up for impact at OT or DT but i dont think 58 and 22 will get us far enough up. Plus the chances of someone moving us off those picks is somewhat slim.
Thats why Im thinking if we stand pat, that 2 picks like Gallimore and Murray or maybe Ruiz, those with high floors that specifically help in what we are built for (Stop the run and Run) along with plugging a large gap with someone like DK at corner or another tier 2 FA at WR or G, will keep us in the hunt this year
Seattle's retool "on the fly" has lasted 5 years and counting now. They have less cap space then we do and the Niners look like the superior team next year. If they're the model we're using for "how to retool", then I'm fine with blowing it up. Especially considering their QB is top 3, and much better than ours.
I agree with everyone wanting to trade up/trade down, work magic, etc. That is MUCH easier to do in an online mock than it is for the GM on the day of.
Last year the Raiders reached for some guy named Cleveland Feral at #4 because they couldn't find a trade down partner. I hope Rick is able to maneuver to maximize value too, but we should be prepared to watch a selection at 22, and a selection at 25... even if "value" says we should have done otherwise.
Glad someone else finally said this. Seattle has been retooling since their Super Bowl loss. LOB got too expensive. Russell inked mega deal. And during those retooling years they never could, and still haven't, fixed the O-Line for a team that wants to be run-first. They still haven't replaced the Legion of Boom. They never really did have a great D-Line and still don't. Their amazing Linebackers are old as crap. The WRs and TEs need more juice.
And the same thing has been happening in Green Bay. And for longer.
And now it's Minnesota's turn for different reasons. Cousins is not Elite. Nor is he paid like the Elite QBs are. But the Defense being paid Elite Money AND paying up to land a Franchise QB in Free Agency? That will put you in 'Win Now' mode. And the team didn't even make it to Year 3 of the original Cousins deal before they had to start....wait for it....'retooling'.
The Vikings dumped or declined to keep 8 contributors (5 Starters, 3 backups that played in every game) on Defense. They traded and dumped 2 Starters on Offense. They extended the QB for cap relief. Restructured their best DE's deal.
And what did that get them? Room to sign their upcoming Draft Picks and shop the Tier 3 FA market.
Welcome to 'Retooling 101'. Prerequisites to passing this course are nailing all your Draft Picks for several years or, well, that's really you're only chance to pass. And I see you have a GM and HC on the last year of their contracts. Well, good luck with that.
Do I actually think the picture is as bad as I just painted? No. But I can understand why someone would.
Quote: @"minny65" said:
@"TBro" said:
@"minny65" said:
@"TBro" said:
I think we all agree that we need to add a starting WR from this draft and I don't see the Vikings
trading up to get one in a very deep WR class. The question is, if Jefferson is gone by 22, who do
you grab, what do you like about your pick for the Vikings offense, and what round will you pull
the trigger on the 2nd Tier WR prospects? Trades are allowed, but you must match pick values.
Curious what your draft strategies would be, and in full disclosure I'm very bored at the moment.
Right now I am liking Mims better then Jefferson so I would take him at 22
If you really like Mims, I think you can wait until 25, or even do a small trade down to late in the first/early 2nd and still grab him. Yea I have converted to that approach over the last couple days. I am actually hoping we can make a move up around 15/16 if Kinlaw falls. I want interior lines not Tackles and DE but not a lot of G/C until later and a stud 3T like Kinlaw would go a long way to help the secondary. I hope Mims falls into the 2nd but I really don't want GB to grab him. At 6'3 and 4.38 speed and the best 3 cone in the draft at 6.66 I think he is star in the making. I know the knock on him is he doesn't run the whole tree but maybe Baylor didn't call for him to do that???
What's funny is that late last week and now this week I'm seeing guys like Aiyuk and Mims pass Jefferson as first round reach picks at 22 for the Vikings. I don't get it. Kiper's latest draft that came out today has us taking Aiyuk with Jefferson falling to the end of the first. I think he is getting knocked down recently because experts are labeling him as a slot only guy when he is proven he can play inside or outside. It's like saying Thielen can only play the slot when he has shown he can lineup anywhere and make plays. Kiper then comes back with Jaylon Johnson at 25 and admits that he isn't a first round talent but fits the Zimmer profile. He reached on both picks based on current needs which is the last thing we should be doing. I'm seeing Kinlaw slide in recent mocks and would be in favor of making a trade up to the mid/late teens to get him.
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