Quote: @"AGRforever" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
i dont think its necessarily a drop off by Rhodes or Smith, its how the league is enforcing the illegal contact/holding on DBs this year. Our guys used to get away with a little rub or grab here or there, but the officials have been told to call all the contact after 5 yards so its a big adjustment, especially for a bigger back covering a smaller shiftier WR, they have to give them a bit more of a cushion now because they arent allowed to bump them off their routes.
Now just imagine that Holton Hill was out there and got burned here and there when Waynes or Hughes wasn't available but Kirk didn't fumble 5x because he had 3+ seconds to pass. Not to mention we would have a high pick as well. If Zimmer is a DB whisperer then he needs to whisper to some of the new talent as well. We shouldn't need perennial probowlers at CB for his defense to work.
what? Don't follow the jumble of words there, but will comment on the last line. There is a reason we have perennial probowlers. They were once new talent. Hughes was new talent as well and was playing well.
Quote: @"AGRforever" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
i dont think its necessarily a drop off by Rhodes or Smith, its how the league is enforcing the illegal contact/holding on DBs this year. Our guys used to get away with a little rub or grab here or there, but the officials have been told to call all the contact after 5 yards so its a big adjustment, especially for a bigger back covering a smaller shiftier WR, they have to give them a bit more of a cushion now because they arent allowed to bump them off their routes.
Now just imagine that Holton Hill was out there and got burned here and there when Waynes or Hughes wasn't available but Kirk didn't fumble 5x because he had 3+ seconds to pass. Not to mention we would have a high pick as well. If Zimmer is a DB whisperer then he needs to whisper to some of the new talent as well. We shouldn't need perennial probowlers at CB for his defense to work.
who came up with this DB whisperer bull shit? just because something gets repeated on the interenet doesnt make it a real thing. I dont remember anybody from the team trying to sell him as such...just a bunch of brainless sports writers and fan site posters gave him that tag.
the dude designs kick ass defenses that at times can still control a game... in todays NFL, with all the advantages going to the offense, the fact that Zimmer can still come up with ways to make good offenses struggle says that he is a great coach. as far as coaching up players, who knows how much more hes gotten out of those high draft picks than what they would have been in another system under a different coach? I dont think Rhodes, Sendejo, or Waynes would be the players they are without Zimmer working with them... likely several others on this team the same way. they are perrenial pro bowlers because of the players they became under Zimmer, not because of their draft position.
Agreed, Jimmy. The real genius was getting first Cincinnati and then Minnesota to invest multiple 1st Round picks in CBs that had the right kind of measurables for him to develop.
Mike was ahead of his time in understanding how badly the NFL wanted a pass happy, high scoring product.
No matter how great your pass rush is they aren't going to pressure the QB on every pass. Even historically great lines couldn't do that. And if you blitz a ton every single time it gets picked up you're risking giving up a chunk play.
But a good pass rush with sticky coverage on the back end can look great when the QB has to keep going through progressions to find someone who's open.
You're not going to find guys that have the right athletic profile and mental makeup to be a good CB in the later rounds of the Draft often enough to build a 4 Deep CB Corps, which you have to have in today's game.
Quote: @"FSUVike" said:
Agreed, Jimmy. The real genius was getting first Cincinnati and then Minnesota to invest multiple 1st Round picks in CBs that had the right kind of measurables for him to develop.
Mike was ahead of his time in understanding how badly the NFL wanted a pass happy, high scoring product.
No matter how great your pass rush is they aren't going to pressure the QB on every pass. Even historically great lines couldn't do that. And if you blitz a ton every single time it gets picked up you're risking giving up a chunk play.
But a good pass rush with sticky coverage on the back end can look great when the QB has to keep going through progressions to find someone who's open.
You're not going to find guys that have the right athletic profile and mental makeup to be a good CB in the later rounds of the Draft often enough to build a 4 Deep CB Corps, which you have to have in today's game.
and keeping the pipeline full, the Hughes pick this year was IMO a hedge against losing Waynes or having to overpay to keep him. They now know that they have at least 2 starting caliber guys under contract going forward at the position which will allow them to negotiate harder with Waynes.
After calling out the playing time Holton Hill had been getting I've noticed less and less of him. Not sure I noticed him on defense for a single snap Sunday.
Losing Hughes is a big loss. Our secondary started out looking strong but getting thinner and thinner... I hope Hill can get some playing time in to get some experience. Obviously the coaches see him every day though and know way more than us armchair QBs can. I'm drawing a blank on #41 who got the INT, but I was surprised to see him playing so much before the INT happened.
Quote: @"NorthwestNorseman" said:
Losing Hughes is a big loss. Our secondary started out looking strong but getting thinner and thinner... I hope Hill can get some playing time in to get some experience. Obviously the coaches see him every day though and know way more than us armchair QBs can. I'm drawing a blank on #41 who got the INT, but I was surprised to see him playing so much before the INT happened.
Anthony Harris. He seems to be the go to guy when Sendejo misses time.
As for the DB whisper comments, I do think there is some frustration that Zimmer/Spielman stockpile 1st and 2nd round picks on corners, while inadequately addressing other areas of the roster like OL:
Xavier Rhodes (1st round, Pre-Zimmer)
Trae Waynes (1st round)
Mackensie Alexander (2nd round)
Mike Hughes (1st round)
I think the thought is that since Zimmer is known for being a secondary guru that he should be able to develop mid to late round picks at corner, which we really haven't seen. Holton Hill may buck that trend, but even he is someone who was viewed as early round talent who fell out of the draft for other reasons. It seems like Zimmer's talent is more making the most out of highly talented corners rather than molding raw or less-skilled corners into top level players. Maybe that's a bit unfair, but there also hasn't exactly been spots for mid to undrafted guys to stick around, which is at least a nice change from the days of Frazier, where they were pretty much playing CBs off of the street.
He's done a better job of developing late round/undrafted talent at safety like Ant Harris and Jayron Kearse, though he was viewed by the media as high round talent. Even Sendejo who pre-dates Zimmer became a much better player under him.
Quote: @"JimmyinSD" said:
i dont think its necessarily a drop off by Rhodes or Smith, its how the league is enforcing the illegal contact/holding on DBs this year. Our guys used to get away with a little rub or grab here or there, but the officials have been told to call all the contact after 5 yards so its a big adjustment, especially for a bigger back covering a smaller shiftier WR, they have to give them a bit more of a cushion now because they arent allowed to bump them off their routes.
Which, along with the QB sack rules, is all part of the leagues plan to increase viewership by handcuffing the D making scores higher and defensive units mediocre. I can't believe players like Rhodes, Smith, et al get dumber in the off season or they are "exposed by these new, young offensive geniuses".
College kids...do whatever you can to get on offensive squads. The NFL hates the D right now.
Quote: @"Tyr" said:
As for the DB whisper comments, I do think there is some frustration that Zimmer/Spielman stockpile 1st and 2nd round picks on corners, while inadequately addressing other areas of the roster like OL:
Xavier Rhodes (1st round, Pre-Zimmer)
Trae Waynes (1st round)
Mackensie Alexander (2nd round)
Mike Hughes (1st round)
I think the thought is that since Zimmer is known for being a secondary guru that he should be able to develop mid to late round picks at corner, which we really haven't seen. Holton Hill may buck that trend, but even he is someone who was viewed as early round talent who fell out of the draft for other reasons. It seems like Zimmer's talent is more making the most out of highly talented corners rather than molding raw or less-skilled corners into top level players. Maybe that's a bit unfair, but there also hasn't exactly been spots for mid to undrafted guys to stick around, which is at least a nice change from the days of Frazier, where they were pretty much playing CBs off of the street.
He's done a better job of developing late round/undrafted talent at safety like Ant Harris and Jayron Kearse, though he was viewed by the media as high round talent. Even Sendejo who pre-dates Zimmer became a much better player under him.
If you want to compare Frazier to Zimmer, you have to acknowledge that the DBs actually cover people now versus just tackling the WR after the pass back then. In today's NFL, you have to be able to cover and our D has done that pretty damn well. So if he wants first round talent on the outside so he can develop 4th round talent at DE, then that is fine with me.
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