Quote: @eckman said:
carr flat out suck this year. i would take keenum over him in a hearbeat.
I'd be careful about that. There was a thread this summer about how awesome Derek Carr was. My only response was "yeah, he is 'now'." What will he be like next year? The year after? What happens when his protection wanes? Or he loses one of those receivers? Because he's not yet the kind of QB who can transcend supporting cast. And neither is Case Keenum. We have to be really careful about what we do this offseason.
It's not that Carr and Keenum are "bad" QBs. They're not. They're just among the majority of QBs in the NFL whose performance rises and falls based on situation. And I would say Keenum more so than Carr.
Quote: @Tyr said:
He's a good, but not elite QB and needs to have help to succeed. They had that last year, but the OL took a step back, key skill players like Cooper and Crabtree struggling, switching the OC from Musgrave to Downing, and the defense's struggles he's got too many factors working against him. Not sure if anything has changed with him in terms of mechanics or decision making, though his struggles tonight were exacerbated by swirling winds, which will making both QBs look even worse tonight.
Interestingly, Carr's stats are very similar to Keenum's:
Carr 319/516 (61.5%), 3,383 YDS, 22 TD, 14 INT, 19 SACK, and 86.0 QBR*
Keenum 304/452 (67.3), 3,358 YDS, 21 TD, 7 INT, 20 SACK, and 98.1 QBR
The big differences Carr having lower accuracy and throwing twice the amount of picks, but otherwise they are surprisingly similar. Carr is doing this with an OL, skill players, and D that are all struggling. Keenum is putting his numbers up in a much more favorable situation. That's not meant as a knock on Keenum, but I was just surprised how similar their numbers were despite them dealing with very different situations.
*That is Carr's QBR through 14 games, it would now be lower after a bad performance against the Eagles. The rest of his stats are up to date.
I would not say those stats are similar at all - a 12pt higher QBR is a huge difference. Twice as many Int's is a huge difference. A 6% higher completion percentage is a huge difference. Carr's 6.68 YPA (dink and dunk panic passing) is towards the bottom of the league while Case's is 12th with 7.43 YPA. Case is having a better year this year then even Carr's breakout year last year. Carr has regressed this year big time.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ eckman said:
carr flat out suck this year. i would take keenum over him in a hearbeat.
I'd be careful about that. There was a thread this summer about how awesome Derek Carr was. My only response was "yeah, he is 'now'." What will he be like next year? The year after? What happens when his protection wanes? Or he loses one of those receivers? Because he's not yet the kind of QB who can transcend supporting cast. And neither is Case Keenum. We have to be really careful about what we do this offseason.
It's not that Carr and Keenum are "bad" QBs. They're not. They're just among the majority of QBs in the NFL whose performance rises and falls based on situation. And I would say Keenum more so than Carr.
He's still dealing with that back injury, so lets not poop in the Derek Carr cornflakes just yet. His offensive line is truly offensive because they switched to a zone block technique this season. But look at a guy like Matt Ryan last year to this year: night and day. Carr could be en Fuego in 2018 just as easily. The NFL is so unpredictable.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ eckman said:
carr flat out suck this year. i would take keenum over him in a hearbeat.
I'd be careful about that. There was a thread this summer about how awesome Derek Carr was. My only response was "yeah, he is 'now'." What will he be like next year? The year after? What happens when his protection wanes? Or he loses one of those receivers? Because he's not yet the kind of QB who can transcend supporting cast. And neither is Case Keenum. We have to be really careful about what we do this offseason.
It's not that Carr and Keenum are "bad" QBs. They're not. They're just among the majority of QBs in the NFL whose performance rises and falls based on situation. And I would say Keenum more so than Carr.
He's still dealing with that back injury, so lets not poop in the Derek Carr cornflakes just yet. His offensive line is truly offensive. But look at a guy like Matt Ryan last year to this year: night and day. Carr could be en Fuego in 2018 just as easily. The NFL is so unpredictable.
Yes, I agree. That was my point. I think Carr has the pedigree to become a QB who can transcend supporting cast. Probably won't happen for a few years, but he has that kind of talent. And, for the record, I believed pre-injury Teddy Bridgewater did too. Believing that Keenum can get to that point is a little bigger stretch.
I think the best case scenario for Keenum as a Viking is for the Vikings to realize who he is, and give him as much stability and continuity as possible. Keep the offense the same, keep replenishing that line, get Dalvin back, and Case can have a long, Alex Smith type career. But y'know with a ring or two.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ eckman said:
carr flat out suck this year. i would take keenum over him in a hearbeat.
I'd be careful about that. There was a thread this summer about how awesome Derek Carr was. My only response was "yeah, he is 'now'." What will he be like next year? The year after? What happens when his protection wanes? Or he loses one of those receivers? Because he's not yet the kind of QB who can transcend supporting cast. And neither is Case Keenum. We have to be really careful about what we do this offseason.
It's not that Carr and Keenum are "bad" QBs. They're not. They're just among the majority of QBs in the NFL whose performance rises and falls based on situation. And I would say Keenum more so than Carr.
He's still dealing with that back injury, so lets not poop in the Derek Carr cornflakes just yet. His offensive line is truly offensive. But look at a guy like Matt Ryan last year to this year: night and day. Carr could be en Fuego in 2018 just as easily. The NFL is so unpredictable.
Yes, I agree. That was my point. I think Carr has the pedigree to become a QB who can transcend supporting cast. Probably won't happen for a few years, but he has that kind of talent. And, for the record, I believed pre-injury Teddy Bridgewater did too. Believing that Keenum can get to that point is a little bigger stretch.
I think the best case scenario for Keenum as a Viking is for the Vikings to realize who he is, and give him as much stability and continuity as possible. Keep the offense the same, keep replenishing that line, get Dalvin back, and Case can have a long, Alex Smith type career. But y'know with a ring or two.
I think Keenum is a system QB, he will thrive with this type of system run by this type of guy, but would likely shrink in a more structured offense like Norv tried to operate or with a control freak like Chilly as the OC. If we can keep Shurmur for another season I would be much more comfortable with giving Case a long term contract, but without the stability for at least 1 more year IMO any guesses on Cases future ability with a different system/coach are a complete crap shoot.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ eckman said:
carr flat out suck this year. i would take keenum over him in a hearbeat.
I'd be careful about that. There was a thread this summer about how awesome Derek Carr was. My only response was "yeah, he is 'now'." What will he be like next year? The year after? What happens when his protection wanes? Or he loses one of those receivers? Because he's not yet the kind of QB who can transcend supporting cast. And neither is Case Keenum. We have to be really careful about what we do this offseason.
It's not that Carr and Keenum are "bad" QBs. They're not. They're just among the majority of QBs in the NFL whose performance rises and falls based on situation. And I would say Keenum more so than Carr.
He's still dealing with that back injury, so lets not poop in the Derek Carr cornflakes just yet. His offensive line is truly offensive because they switched to a zone block technique this season. But look at a guy like Matt Ryan last year to this year: night and day. Carr could be en Fuego in 2018 just as easily. The NFL is so unpredictable.
His back injury was minor and and in week 4. He has not reported problems since coming back nor listed on injury reports. Cam and Romo had the same injuries and missed one game and came back fine.
I have no problem "pooping" in his cornflakes. IMO he is being exposed as a very average QB. Even his breakout year last year Case Keenum's stats this year are better. Meaning, he was a media darling and the Raiders winning so they jumped on board despite some signs that Carr is not a Top 10 QB - first off he is inaccurate, has happy feet, dink and dunk passer with a well below average YPA for his career. All that with what has been considered the best pass blocking OL since he got to the NFL.
I think he is average at best and next year will be about the same. Not pooping just calling it like I see it, so my opinion.
We've already heard how Spielman is an idiot for not signing Osemele to a huge deal and not drafting Carr.
Quote: @claykenny said:
We've already heard how Spielman is an idiot for not signing Osemele to a huge deal and not drafting Carr.
The one that still sticks under my craw a bit is La'el Collins...
Well if we are gonna toss numbers around, & dog on Spielman, my main man T Heinicke made his NFL debut yesterday and didn't miss a throw, 100.0
10 yard avg
no INT's
even a couple yards on the ground
Did have 1 sack,
that quickly ended the drive &
Aforementioned debut
:p
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ claykenny said:
We've already heard how Spielman is an idiot for not signing Osemele to a huge deal and not drafting Carr.
The one that still sticks under my craw a bit is La'el Collins...
No one drafted Collins - UDFA - who then got to chose which team he would play and he chose the Cowboys. That sticks under your craw due to Speilman how?
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