Sigh

[Guest]

[Guest]

@Wetlander said:

@Chuckf said:

@medaille said:

@StickyBun said:

@medaille said:
Glad to know Cousins has no more excuses since the problems
are all gone.

Yep, that's what those stats are: excuses. Good to know fans are going to fan, regardless.

Is that stat any more meaningful than any other stat?  Is it more meaningful than yards, or points
given up, or turnovers, or sacks?


We all know the entire conversation.  Cousins has good stats, except for wins.  One side says Cousins good stats should lead
to good win totals, so it must be something other than Cousins causing the wins
to not be where they should be.  If only
the was better, then Cousins would get
the wins.  The other side says that
Cousins has a long track record of mediocre win totals, so the common
denominator is him.  Of course Cousins
has good stats and the defense doesn’t. 
We’ve surrounded him with the best surrounding cast possible and we’ve sacrificed
the defense to do so, and he’s still not carrying the team.


The only thing that is going to break the cycle is if we win
a SB with Cousins or if we get rid of Cousins and then win a SB with his
replacement.

How has the team "sacrificed the defense"  Exactly?  They have paid A LOT of people to come in here and paid a LOT of $$ to keep the good players.  So it was Cousin's fault the defense with the SAME line up went from the number one defense in scoring and yards per game in 2017 to 9th and 4th respectively the next year?  It wasn't Keenum and the offense that was the catalyst for the 13-3 season, it was that great defense.   

So...  What you're saying is if Cousins has a top 5 or 10 defense this season we can expect to win 8-10 games?  Cuz that's what we had in 2018 amd 2019 and went 8-7-1 and 10-6

HUGE difference between being the #1 OVERALL, #1 in scoring, #1 in 3rd downs, #2 overall in passing, #2 overall in rushing defense in 2017  and what was put on the field in 2018 and 2019.  For Example, lets look at same opponents from 2017 to 2018 and the defensive perfomances:

Vikings beat Rams in 2017 24-7
Vikings lose to Rams in 2018 31-38

Vikings beat Packers in 2017 23-10 and 16-0 
Vikings tie Packers in 2018 29-29 and beat them 24-17

Vikings beat Bears in 2017 20-17 and win 23-10
Vikings lose to Bears in 2018 25-20 and 24-10

Vikings lose to Lions 7-14 and win 30-23 in 2017
Vikings beat Lions 24-9 and 27-9 in 2018

You do not see a difference in the scoring allowed?  In 2017 the Vikings defense gave up 252 total points.  341 total points in 2018.  THAT is the difference between 13-3 and 8-7-1.  
15.6 ppg vs 21.3 ppg.

[Guest]

@StickyBun said:

You can knock Cousins for some intangibles.  But he's a damn good passer.  He's good enough to win a superbowl.  He's got several years left in Minnesota. 

Lets just hope the coaching change is what was needed to win the MF'er

[Guest]

@Chuckf said:

@Wetlander said:

@Chuckf said:

@medaille said:

@StickyBun said:

@medaille said:
Glad to know Cousins has no more excuses since the problems
are all gone.

Yep, that's what those stats are: excuses. Good to know fans are going to fan, regardless.

Is that stat any more meaningful than any other stat?  Is it more meaningful than yards, or points
given up, or turnovers, or sacks?


We all know the entire conversation.  Cousins has good stats, except for wins.  One side says Cousins good stats should lead
to good win totals, so it must be something other than Cousins causing the wins
to not be where they should be.  If only
the was better, then Cousins would get
the wins.  The other side says that
Cousins has a long track record of mediocre win totals, so the common
denominator is him.  Of course Cousins
has good stats and the defense doesn’t. 
We’ve surrounded him with the best surrounding cast possible and we’ve sacrificed
the defense to do so, and he’s still not carrying the team.


The only thing that is going to break the cycle is if we win
a SB with Cousins or if we get rid of Cousins and then win a SB with his
replacement.

How has the team "sacrificed the defense"  Exactly?  They have paid A LOT of people to come in here and paid a LOT of $$ to keep the good players.  So it was Cousin's fault the defense with the SAME line up went from the number one defense in scoring and yards per game in 2017 to 9th and 4th respectively the next year?  It wasn't Keenum and the offense that was the catalyst for the 13-3 season, it was that great defense.   

So...  What you're saying is if Cousins has a top 5 or 10 defense this season we can expect to win 8-10 games?  Cuz that's what we had in 2018 amd 2019 and went 8-7-1 and 10-6

HUGE difference between being the #1 OVERALL, #1 in scoring, #1 in 3rd downs, #2 overall in passing, #2 overall in rushing defense in 2017  and what was put on the field in 2018 and 2019.

We still ranked fairly high due to a good 3rd down defense, but you could see the defense begin to falter in those years, especially the run defense. 

[Guest]

In 2017 Minnesota’s offense was ranked 1st in the
league in 3rd down conversions at 44.72%  In 2018, Minnesota’s offense was ranked 26th
in the league at 35.78%.  2019 was 9th
at 42.41%.  2020 was 16th at
40.88%, and 2021 was 26th at 36.40%.


Maybe there’s some synergy going on where the offense not staying
on the field makes the defense look worse?

[Guest]

@medaille said:
In 2017 Minnesota’s offense was ranked 1st in the
league in 3rd down conversions at 44.72%  In 2018, Minnesota’s offense was ranked 26th
in the league at 35.78%.  2019 was 9th
at 42.41%.  2020 was 16th at
40.88%, and 2021 was 26th at 36.40%.


Maybe there’s some synergy going on where the offense not staying
on the field makes the defense look worse?

That may be so but could that be because the Vikings running game was ranked 7th overall in 2017, then dropped to 19th in 2018?  Rebounded to 9th in 2019 but the Vikings made the playoffs in 2019.  2020 ranked 11th, and 2021 14th.  Good rushing game helps a lot with making 3rd down situations shorter yardage too right?  I get it, you don't like Cousins, but you really cannot argue with his production so you are looking for other avenues to blame the Vikings regression from 2017 to 2022.  382, 360, 407, 430, 425.   That is the total points scored by the Vikings offense from 2017-2022.  in four out of 5 seasons Kirk has been in Minnesota the offense has BLOWN past the point production from 2017.

[Guest]

@Chuckf said:

@medaille said:
In 2017 Minnesota’s offense was ranked 1st in the
league in 3rd down conversions at 44.72%  In 2018, Minnesota’s offense was ranked 26th
in the league at 35.78%.  2019 was 9th
at 42.41%.  2020 was 16th at
40.88%, and 2021 was 26th at 36.40%.


Maybe there’s some synergy going on where the offense not staying
on the field makes the defense look worse?

That may be so but could that be because the Vikings running game was ranked 7th overall in 2017, then dropped to 19th in 2018?  Rebounded to 9th in 2019 but the Vikings made the playoffs in 2019.  2020 ranked 11th, and 2021 14th.  Good rushing game helps a lot with making 3rd down situations shorter yardage too right?  I get it, you don't like Cousins, but you really cannot argue with his production so you are looking for other avenues to blame the Vikings regression from 2017 to 2022.  382, 360, 407, 430, 425.   That is the total points scored by the Vikings offense from 2017-2022.  in four out of 5 seasons Kirk has been in Minnesota the offense has BLOWN past the point production from 2017.

I don't dislike Cousins.  I don't think anyone argues with his production.  People disagree about why his teams don't win when he collects stats.  I don't think you are disagreeing with what I've said at all.

[Guest]

Stats give you an idea if someone is doing their job or not. Cousins does his job and does it well. Pretty much every objective measure proves that out. 
That leaves naysayers with wins/losses. This is the most useless measure of a QB’s performance or ability. In statistics, this is known as a spurious relationship. It can be easy to link the two based upon appearance and emotion, but the reality is they do not strongly correlate with one another due to limiting factors (it’s only one limited facet of what is necessary for a successful outcome in a game). 
There is no such QB in NFL history who can “put a team on his back and win the big game”. It’s nothing more than an emotional fallacy. This is proven out again and again, with even players like the GOAT Brady, relying upon a well balanced team with top flight defenses for ultimate success. One only needs to look at Brady’s overall teams to see this. His success is a direct result of the team. If it was all about the QB, Aaron Rodgers would have won many championships by now. 
Regardless of how good of an overall QB Cousins is, he will not win a championship with the teams the Vikings are putting around him. No QB would. There’s no easy button for winning a championship. GM’s and coaches must put together better rosters and schemes than we have had. 
Cousins and how he is viewed, reminds me of the same way Brees was viewed before his championship success. Many of the same things said about Cousins were said about him. Brees was too short, didn’t have the “intangibles”. He was always “limited”. He was just a “stat guy”, but couldn’t “carry the team”. 
Like Brees, the narrative won’t change without a championship and that’s just the way it’s going to be, fair or not. 

[Guest]

@medaille said:

@Chuckf said:

@medaille said:
In 2017 Minnesota’s offense was ranked 1st in the
league in 3rd down conversions at 44.72%  In 2018, Minnesota’s offense was ranked 26th
in the league at 35.78%.  2019 was 9th
at 42.41%.  2020 was 16th at
40.88%, and 2021 was 26th at 36.40%.


Maybe there’s some synergy going on where the offense not staying
on the field makes the defense look worse?

That may be so but could that be because the Vikings running game was ranked 7th overall in 2017, then dropped to 19th in 2018?  Rebounded to 9th in 2019 but the Vikings made the playoffs in 2019.  2020 ranked 11th, and 2021 14th.  Good rushing game helps a lot with making 3rd down situations shorter yardage too right?  I get it, you don't like Cousins, but you really cannot argue with his production so you are looking for other avenues to blame the Vikings regression from 2017 to 2022.  382, 360, 407, 430, 425.   That is the total points scored by the Vikings offense from 2017-2022.  in four out of 5 seasons Kirk has been in Minnesota the offense has BLOWN past the point production from 2017.

I don't dislike Cousins.  I don't think anyone argues with his production.  People disagree about why his teams don't win when he collects stats.  I don't think you are disagreeing with what I've said at all.

Fair enough

[Guest]

@Havoc1649 said:
Stats give you an idea if someone is doing their job or not. Cousins does his job and does it well. Pretty much every objective measure proves that out. 

That leaves naysayers with wins/losses. This is the most useless measure of a QB’s performance or ability. In statistics, this is known as a spurious relationship. It can be easy to link the two based upon appearance and emotion, but the reality is they do not strongly correlate with one another due to limiting factors (it’s only one limited facet of what is necessary for a successful outcome in a game). 
There is no such QB in NFL history who can “put a team on his back and win the big game”. It’s nothing more than an emotional fallacy. This is proven out again and again, with even players like the GOAT Brady, relying upon a well balanced team with top flight defenses for ultimate success. One only needs to look at Brady’s overall teams to see this. His success is a direct result of the team. If it was all about the QB, Aaron Rodgers would have won many championships by now. 
Regardless of how good of an overall QB Cousins is, he will not win a championship with the teams the Vikings are putting around him. No QB would. There’s no easy button for winning a championship. GM’s and coaches must put together better rosters and schemes than we have had. 
Cousins and how he is viewed, reminds me of the same way Brees was viewed before his championship success. Many of the same things said about Cousins were said about him. Brees was too short, didn’t have the “intangibles”. He was always “limited”. He was just a “stat guy”, but couldn’t “carry the team”. 
Like Brees, the narrative won’t change without a championship and that’s just the way it’s going to be, fair or not. 

Spot on...

Brees is a very good example of this and you can add Elway to this list as well. For a whole variety of reasons this team has not been able to perform beyond mediocrity and gets exposed in playoff games. 

That is a function of the front office, coaching, player quality (or lack of) and more...

The ineptitude is the reason Zimmer and RS are both history.