Quote: @minny65 said:
@ RS Express said:
If Atlanta actually tries to move up from 8 for Pickett their GM needs to be shot before he can confirm the trade. And Willis at 2? The Lions had Fields sitting in their laps last year at 7 and passed. Taking Willis at 2 a year later when he won't be worth a crap until '24 at best is completely idiotic.
Don't even get me started on the Vikings trading out of Sauce for a LB. Did this clown miss the Za'Darius signing? I could see that trade going down for Pickett or Willis at 12, but Ridder? And if the Vikings did make that trade, I doubt McDuffie lasts to 20 so I'd be crossing my fingers for Booth.
Yea, like I said during the draft last year, If Fields was in the 2022 draft he would be a Top 1 or 2 pick with Teams like Carolina and Atlanta trying to move up for him. Fields was a steal for the Bears. Thankfully the Bears are in a full rebuild with all new coaching/GM and Fields is going to take some lumps the next few years in the process of trying to surround him with talent.
That said, Carolina and Atlanta, need a QB which results in reaches. "Need" means reach especially at QB. That said, a team should to trust it scouting/personnel/GM to evaluate every QB, every draft, as if they need them even when they don't which is my advocated approach (exceptions of course for teams with youngish franchise QB's).
Once again I am seeing some posters talking about the 2023 QB class that is supposed to be much deeper than this one. Of course, 2023 it is very likely we will need a QB unless we are planning on paying Kirk 50 million or doing the old extension and giving Kirk mo money up front. So 2023, likely we will "need" a QB and with our proud history of always drafting from 14-low 20's, the top 1 or 2 QB's Kwesi want is probably going in the Top 5. So we are maybe put in a position of need/reach again. Or maybe a few of these 2023 prodigies flop and the draft is back to just another QB class.
Back to 2022 - we don't "need" a young QB but if we do our due diligence (although newbie staff/GM) they should trust their instincts if they deem one of them worthy of even a move up or a run to the podium at 12. But, because they are all newbies that is very very unlikely, like nil. Similar to Spelly tying his wagon to Kirk the last few years we were never going to draft any QB's in the first round because we just needed to surround Kirk with another missing piece. The ole we are not rebuilding we are a player or two away from contending for a SB.
So 2022 draft is going to be just like the 2021, 2020 draft in terms of no progression plan at the most important position in sports. No risk no reward. A franchise QB rarely just falls in your lap when you are drafting outside the Top 10 and you are not willing to move up because we are a player away mentality like we are once again with a new regime. Let's pretend Kwesi has the leeway and balls and thinks Pickett is our guy does anyone think we will draft him? Neither do I. Or maybe we don't have a first round grade on any QB and we think Mond has a chance.
Obviously, the new regime does think we have enough talent to compete for a SB this year. I don't. I don't even think we are a playoff team at this early point primarily based on what I have witnessed the last few years with a lot of the current players and a whole new coaching staff poised to make rookie mistakes.. So the new brass/Wilf's are sticking with what has not worked for us during Kirk's tenure (not blaming him because he is a Top 10 QB who teases us with a lot of what if's every game and results in the one player away approach) which was after Zimmer created a window that was clearly closed shut rudely in Philly going on 5 seasons ago (2017). They hung onto Zimmer years too long and I think we are going to be in the same boat with Kirk.
I completely understand those posters who think we are close and I don't call them names or disregard thier post's. We all have the same goal and we have different opinions on how to get there.
So 2023, we will "need" a QB going into Kwesi's second draft....great, I wonder what our approach is going to be? Actually I don't. Probably reup Kirk or pursue another Kirk/Bradford type veteran who will make us think we are one or two players away. Rinse/Repeat the consistency of always at least being mediocre and not willing to take the risk/reward approach.
You know, minny, I may not fully agree with everything you say here but it very well could be the case. Its well reasoned and a totally legitimate point of view.
Quote: @minny65 said:
@ RS Express said:
If Atlanta actually tries to move up from 8 for Pickett their GM needs to be shot before he can confirm the trade. And Willis at 2? The Lions had Fields sitting in their laps last year at 7 and passed. Taking Willis at 2 a year later when he won't be worth a crap until '24 at best is completely idiotic.
Don't even get me started on the Vikings trading out of Sauce for a LB. Did this clown miss the Za'Darius signing? I could see that trade going down for Pickett or Willis at 12, but Ridder? And if the Vikings did make that trade, I doubt McDuffie lasts to 20 so I'd be crossing my fingers for Booth.
Yea, like I said during the draft last year, If Fields was in the 2022 draft he would be a Top 1 or 2 pick with Teams like Carolina and Atlanta trying to move up for him. Fields was a steal for the Bears. Thankfully the Bears are in a full rebuild with all new coaching/GM and Fields is going to take some lumps the next few years in the process of trying to surround him with talent.
That said, Carolina and Atlanta, need a QB which results in reaches. "Need" means reach especially at QB. That said, a team should to trust it scouting/personnel/GM to evaluate every QB, every draft, as if they need them even when they don't which is my advocated approach (exceptions of course for teams with youngish franchise QB's).
Once again I am seeing some posters talking about the 2023 QB class that is supposed to be much deeper than this one. Of course, 2023 it is very likely we will need a QB unless we are planning on paying Kirk 50 million or doing the old extension and giving Kirk mo money up front. So 2023, likely we will "need" a QB and with our proud history of always drafting from 14-low 20's, the top 1 or 2 QB's Kwesi want is probably going in the Top 5. So we are maybe put in a position of need/reach again. Or maybe a few of these 2023 prodigies flop and the draft is back to just another QB class.
Back to 2022 - we don't "need" a young QB but if we do our due diligence (although newbie staff/GM) they should trust their instincts if they deem one of them worthy of even a move up or a run to the podium at 12. But, because they are all newbies that is very very unlikely, like nil. Similar to Spelly tying his wagon to Kirk the last few years we were never going to draft any QB's in the first round because we just needed to surround Kirk with another missing piece. The ole we are not rebuilding we are a player or two away from contending for a SB.
So 2022 draft is going to be just like the 2021, 2020 draft in terms of no progression plan at the most important position in sports. No risk no reward. A franchise QB rarely just falls in your lap when you are drafting outside the Top 10 and you are not willing to move up because we are a player away mentality like we are once again with a new regime. Let's pretend Kwesi has the leeway and balls and thinks Pickett is our guy does anyone think we will draft him? Neither do I. Or maybe we don't have a first round grade on any QB and we think Mond has a chance.
Obviously, the new regime does think we have enough talent to compete for a SB this year. I don't. I don't even think we are a playoff team at this early point primarily based on what I have witnessed the last few years with a lot of the current players and a whole new coaching staff poised to make rookie mistakes.. So the new brass/Wilf's are sticking with what has not worked for us during Kirk's tenure (not blaming him because he is a Top 10 QB who teases us with a lot of what if's every game and results in the one player away approach) which was after Zimmer created a window that was clearly closed shut rudely in Philly going on 5 seasons ago (2017). They hung onto Zimmer years too long and I think we are going to be in the same boat with Kirk.
I completely understand those posters who think we are close and I don't call them names or disregard thier post's. We all have the same goal and we have different opinions on how to get there.
So 2023, we will "need" a QB going into Kwesi's second draft....great, I wonder what our approach is going to be? Actually I don't. Probably reup Kirk or pursue another Kirk/Bradford type veteran who will make us think we are one or two players away. Rinse/Repeat the consistency of always at least being mediocre and not willing to take the risk/reward approach.
Just don't know why so many think Super Bowl teams are these elite, dominant teams studded with All Pros. You know what David Edwards, Greg Gaines, Bobby Brown, Ernest Jones, Troy Reader and Nick Scott have in common? All started for the Rams in the Super Bowl this year. And calling them league average would be nice. All were day-three picks or UDFAs. The last three have sub-50 PFF grades, the others not much better.
Don't even get me started on the Bengals roster. Or the Chiefs, who had Mike Remmers starting at RT. Remember Pats v. Falcons. 4 of the 6 starting wides in that game were named Edelman, Chris Hogan, Taylor Gabriel and Malcom Mitchell.
Oh but the Vikings, with Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen, Dalvin Cook, Danielle Hunter, Z Smith, Eric Kendricks and Harrison Smith are YEARS away from contending. Vikings, whose coach screwed them out of several wins, had a playoff roster last year. They likely will again this year. The key, as with every team, will be staying relatively healthy and getting hot at the right time. And hopefully, this time, a coach who can find a way to come out on top in at least half of the close ones.
Remember, the Bengals were 4-12 the year before their Super Bowl. The Bucs 7-9. It's just not the era of enduring powerhouses anymore. Every season, with the exception of a handful of teams, every team in the NFL is a couple key injuries or a couple key additions away from a reversed fortune.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ minny65 said:
@ RS Express said:
If Atlanta actually tries to move up from 8 for Pickett their GM needs to be shot before he can confirm the trade. And Willis at 2? The Lions had Fields sitting in their laps last year at 7 and passed. Taking Willis at 2 a year later when he won't be worth a crap until '24 at best is completely idiotic.
Don't even get me started on the Vikings trading out of Sauce for a LB. Did this clown miss the Za'Darius signing? I could see that trade going down for Pickett or Willis at 12, but Ridder? And if the Vikings did make that trade, I doubt McDuffie lasts to 20 so I'd be crossing my fingers for Booth.
Yea, like I said during the draft last year, If Fields was in the 2022 draft he would be a Top 1 or 2 pick with Teams like Carolina and Atlanta trying to move up for him. Fields was a steal for the Bears. Thankfully the Bears are in a full rebuild with all new coaching/GM and Fields is going to take some lumps the next few years in the process of trying to surround him with talent.
That said, Carolina and Atlanta, need a QB which results in reaches. "Need" means reach especially at QB. That said, a team should to trust it scouting/personnel/GM to evaluate every QB, every draft, as if they need them even when they don't which is my advocated approach (exceptions of course for teams with youngish franchise QB's).
Once again I am seeing some posters talking about the 2023 QB class that is supposed to be much deeper than this one. Of course, 2023 it is very likely we will need a QB unless we are planning on paying Kirk 50 million or doing the old extension and giving Kirk mo money up front. So 2023, likely we will "need" a QB and with our proud history of always drafting from 14-low 20's, the top 1 or 2 QB's Kwesi want is probably going in the Top 5. So we are maybe put in a position of need/reach again. Or maybe a few of these 2023 prodigies flop and the draft is back to just another QB class.
Back to 2022 - we don't "need" a young QB but if we do our due diligence (although newbie staff/GM) they should trust their instincts if they deem one of them worthy of even a move up or a run to the podium at 12. But, because they are all newbies that is very very unlikely, like nil. Similar to Spelly tying his wagon to Kirk the last few years we were never going to draft any QB's in the first round because we just needed to surround Kirk with another missing piece. The ole we are not rebuilding we are a player or two away from contending for a SB.
So 2022 draft is going to be just like the 2021, 2020 draft in terms of no progression plan at the most important position in sports. No risk no reward. A franchise QB rarely just falls in your lap when you are drafting outside the Top 10 and you are not willing to move up because we are a player away mentality like we are once again with a new regime. Let's pretend Kwesi has the leeway and balls and thinks Pickett is our guy does anyone think we will draft him? Neither do I. Or maybe we don't have a first round grade on any QB and we think Mond has a chance.
Obviously, the new regime does think we have enough talent to compete for a SB this year. I don't. I don't even think we are a playoff team at this early point primarily based on what I have witnessed the last few years with a lot of the current players and a whole new coaching staff poised to make rookie mistakes.. So the new brass/Wilf's are sticking with what has not worked for us during Kirk's tenure (not blaming him because he is a Top 10 QB who teases us with a lot of what if's every game and results in the one player away approach) which was after Zimmer created a window that was clearly closed shut rudely in Philly going on 5 seasons ago (2017). They hung onto Zimmer years too long and I think we are going to be in the same boat with Kirk.
I completely understand those posters who think we are close and I don't call them names or disregard thier post's. We all have the same goal and we have different opinions on how to get there.
So 2023, we will "need" a QB going into Kwesi's second draft....great, I wonder what our approach is going to be? Actually I don't. Probably reup Kirk or pursue another Kirk/Bradford type veteran who will make us think we are one or two players away. Rinse/Repeat the consistency of always at least being mediocre and not willing to take the risk/reward approach.
Just don't know why so many think Super Bowl teams are these elite, dominant teams studded with All Pros. You know what David Edwards, Greg Gaines, Bobby Brown, Ernest Jones, Troy Reader and Nick Scott have in common? All started for the Rams in the Super Bowl this year. And calling them league average would be nice. All were day-three picks or UDFAs. The last three have sub-50 PFF grades, the others not much better.
Don't even get me started on the Bengals roster. Or the Chiefs, who had Mike Remmers starting at RT. Remember Pats v. Falcons. 4 of the 6 starting wides in that game were named Edelman, Chris Hogan, Taylor Gabriel and Malcom Mitchell.
Oh but the Vikings, with Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen, Dalvin Cook, Danielle Hunter, Z Smith, Eric Kendricks and Harrison Smith are YEARS away from contending. Vikings, whose coach screwed them out of several wins, had a playoff roster last year. They likely will again this year. The key, as with every team, will be staying relatively healthy and getting hot at the right time. And hopefully, this time, a coach who can find a way to come out on top in at least half of the close ones.
Remember, the Bengals were 4-12 the year before their Super Bowl. The Bucs 7-9. It's just not the era of enduring powerhouses anymore. Every season, with the exception of a handful of teams, every team in the NFL is a couple key injuries or a couple key additions away from a reversed fortune.
Don't Forget - Rams=Offensive Minded Head Coach. Bengals=Offensive Minded Head Coach. Bucs=Offensive Minded Head Coach. Chiefs=Offensive Minded Head Coach. 49ers=Offensive Minded Head Coach.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
.....
So 2022 draft is going to be just like the 2021, 2020 draft in terms of no progression plan at the most important position in sports. No risk no reward. A franchise QB rarely just falls in your lap when you are drafting outside the Top 10 and you are not willing to move up because we are a player away mentality like we are once again with a new regime. Let's pretend Kwesi has the leeway and balls and thinks Pickett is our guy does anyone think we will draft him? Neither do I. Or maybe we don't have a first round grade on any QB and we think Mond has a chance.
Obviously, the new regime does think we have enough talent to compete for a SB this year. I don't. I don't even think we are a playoff team at this early point primarily based on what I have witnessed the last few years with a lot of the current players and a whole new coaching staff poised to make rookie mistakes.. So the new brass/Wilf's are sticking with what has not worked for us during Kirk's tenure (not blaming him because he is a Top 10 QB who teases us with a lot of what if's every game and results in the one player away approach) which was after Zimmer created a window that was clearly closed shut rudely in Philly going on 5 seasons ago (2017). They hung onto Zimmer years too long and I think we are going to be in the same boat with Kirk.
I completely understand those posters who think we are close and I don't call them names or disregard thier post's. We all have the same goal and we have different opinions on how to get there.
So 2023, we will "need" a QB going into Kwesi's second draft....great, I wonder what our approach is going to be? Actually I don't. Probably reup Kirk or pursue another Kirk/Bradford type veteran who will make us think we are one or two players away. Rinse/Repeat the consistency of always at least being mediocre and not willing to take the risk/reward approach.
Just don't know why so many think Super Bowl teams are these elite, dominant teams studded with All Pros. You know what David Edwards, Greg Gaines, Bobby Brown, Ernest Jones, Troy Reader and Nick Scott have in common? All started for the Rams in the Super Bowl this year. And calling them league average would be nice. All were day-three picks or UDFAs. The last three have sub-50 PFF grades, the others not much better.
Don't even get me started on the Bengals roster. Or the Chiefs, who had Mike Remmers starting at RT. Remember Pats v. Falcons. 4 of the 6 starting wides in that game were named Edelman, Chris Hogan, Taylor Gabriel and Malcom Mitchell.
Oh but the Vikings, with Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen, Dalvin Cook, Danielle Hunter, Z Smith, Eric Kendricks and Harrison Smith are YEARS away from contending. Vikings, whose coach screwed them out of several wins, had a playoff roster last year. They likely will again this year. The key, as with every team, will be staying relatively healthy and getting hot at the right time. And hopefully, this time, a coach who can find a way to come out on top in at least half of the close ones.
Remember, the Bengals were 4-12 the year before their Super Bowl. The Bucs 7-9. It's just not the era of enduring powerhouses anymore. Every season, with the exception of a handful of teams, every team in the NFL is a couple key injuries or a couple key additions away from a reversed fortune.
First, I never said we were talentless or that we were years away from contending and I don't know why you set up that thought process from my post which was mainly focused on drafting a QB even if you don't need one for that season. My risk vs reward combined with opportunity especially at QB. My main point and theme is QB draft related.
I did say I dont' think we have enough talent to contend. Stress the enough. But even most of the players you mentioned above are clearly past there prime or have recent injury issues and we have a rookie coaching staff which some want to think will magically win this roster 3 or 4 more games. I disagree there as well. Sure teams that make it to the SB usually have decent luck from an injury standpoint but they have managed to overcome that with depth and good preparation like you reference. But it is not like mot teams that make it deep into the playoffs are injury free even at key positions. Look at the Eagles a few years ago where Wentz went down and some guy named Foles took over.
You reference the Cheifs and one OL but they have Mahomes who is the perfect example of my original post above - carpe diem and if you see a QB that you think is a franchise QB even if you have a all pro QB at the time you go for it. Risk vs reward and the personnel department/GM front office who trusted there evaluation process and didn't just stick with Alex Smith even though they were a playoff team already. They are the more recent poster child of what I am talking about. Then the Bills as well.
Then you mention Pat's vs Falcons - The Goat vs Matt Ryan who was in his prime years and you go through the lineup and show were they did not have top talent. Like I said, you could do that for every "team" because it is a team game.
Lastly you mention (Rams) had the best defensive player in football the last few years who almost took over the game. Probably the best CB, a top WR and the lineup is dotted with top talent but you take the unknown guys. Sure every team needs those players you can't have all pro's at every position. Rams are loaded with talent.
The Bengals - Joe Burrow
The Buccs - GOAT (again)
We have been to this rodeo a few times. We disagree about the amount of talent on this team and that is what it comes down to. Obviously, a few posters see it your way and a few see it my way. The Wilf's and the executive brass obviously agree with you guys as well. But the theme of my message was the same as my message before last years draft - risk vs reward and opportunity to draft a QB even when you don't need one. Last year was said to be the deepest 1st round QB talent in over a decade. We also, at pick 14 (which is high for us) had the opportunity to go get one of them (for the most part only Fields and Jones ended up being in reach). I advocated for Fields knowing that Spelly was never going to do it because he tied his ship to Kirk. As predicted before and during the draft I don't even think we considered any of those Top QB's.
So now we are waiting on 2023 because we don't need a QB this year and the supposed talent is not there in the Top 10. But we are pick 12 and one of those QB's may not be top 10 but 12 they may be. I don't think even if we did our due diligence (kwesi like Spelly before) we are not drafting any of the QB's because we are a Top CB away from pushing us to the Top. Instead we will wait until 2023 when we "Need" a QB and make our reach.
Again, we just disagree but we want the same thing from our beloved team!
Quote: @minny65 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
.....
So 2022 draft is going to be just like the 2021, 2020 draft in terms of no progression plan at the most important position in sports. No risk no reward. A franchise QB rarely just falls in your lap when you are drafting outside the Top 10 and you are not willing to move up because we are a player away mentality like we are once again with a new regime. Let's pretend Kwesi has the leeway and balls and thinks Pickett is our guy does anyone think we will draft him? Neither do I. Or maybe we don't have a first round grade on any QB and we think Mond has a chance.
Obviously, the new regime does think we have enough talent to compete for a SB this year. I don't. I don't even think we are a playoff team at this early point primarily based on what I have witnessed the last few years with a lot of the current players and a whole new coaching staff poised to make rookie mistakes.. So the new brass/Wilf's are sticking with what has not worked for us during Kirk's tenure (not blaming him because he is a Top 10 QB who teases us with a lot of what if's every game and results in the one player away approach) which was after Zimmer created a window that was clearly closed shut rudely in Philly going on 5 seasons ago (2017). They hung onto Zimmer years too long and I think we are going to be in the same boat with Kirk.
I completely understand those posters who think we are close and I don't call them names or disregard thier post's. We all have the same goal and we have different opinions on how to get there.
So 2023, we will "need" a QB going into Kwesi's second draft....great, I wonder what our approach is going to be? Actually I don't. Probably reup Kirk or pursue another Kirk/Bradford type veteran who will make us think we are one or two players away. Rinse/Repeat the consistency of always at least being mediocre and not willing to take the risk/reward approach.
Just don't know why so many think Super Bowl teams are these elite, dominant teams studded with All Pros. You know what David Edwards, Greg Gaines, Bobby Brown, Ernest Jones, Troy Reader and Nick Scott have in common? All started for the Rams in the Super Bowl this year. And calling them league average would be nice. All were day-three picks or UDFAs. The last three have sub-50 PFF grades, the others not much better.
Don't even get me started on the Bengals roster. Or the Chiefs, who had Mike Remmers starting at RT. Remember Pats v. Falcons. 4 of the 6 starting wides in that game were named Edelman, Chris Hogan, Taylor Gabriel and Malcom Mitchell.
Oh but the Vikings, with Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen, Dalvin Cook, Danielle Hunter, Z Smith, Eric Kendricks and Harrison Smith are YEARS away from contending. Vikings, whose coach screwed them out of several wins, had a playoff roster last year. They likely will again this year. The key, as with every team, will be staying relatively healthy and getting hot at the right time. And hopefully, this time, a coach who can find a way to come out on top in at least half of the close ones.
Remember, the Bengals were 4-12 the year before their Super Bowl. The Bucs 7-9. It's just not the era of enduring powerhouses anymore. Every season, with the exception of a handful of teams, every team in the NFL is a couple key injuries or a couple key additions away from a reversed fortune.
But even most of the players you mentioned above are clearly past there prime or have recent injury issues and we have a rookie coaching staff which some want to think will magically win this roster 3 or 4 more games. I disagree there as well. Sure teams that make it to the SB usually have decent luck from an injury standpoint but they have managed to overcome that with depth and good preparation like you reference.
But the Rams didn't have grandpa Whitworth starting on its line? If you visited a blue and yellow forum instead of a purple one, I can only assume you would've expressed similar age concerns about the Rams. Truth is, though, they were among the youngest teams in the NFL last year. Vikings along with them.
Depth is another issue where it seems some Viking fans think "championship teams" have 2nd and 3rd round draft picks stacked behind every starter. It's just not true, for any team. For example, I've heard a lot of complaints about the TE2 we signed to replace our TE2. Mundt. He was the Rams TE2 last year. Guess he's not as good as ours was. Funny thing, that.
I think if Viking fans used the same lens of scrutiny for all teams that they do their own, it would be pretty easy to see the Vikings roster compares well.
Quote: @RS Express said:
The Lions had Fields sitting in their laps last year at 7 and passed. Taking Willis at 2 a year later when he won't be worth a crap until '24 at best
So Willis to the Lions is a lock you’re saying?
I just cant shake this belief that coaching decisions and situational football incompetency cost this team 2 games last season...
Hope the new schemes take, new players jell, injury bug doesnt bite hard, what appears to be an easier schedule and I think the floor for the team is last years wins..
I know, lots of hope lol!
Quote: @AGRforever said:
@ RS Express said:
The Lions had Fields sitting in their laps last year at 7 and passed. Taking Willis at 2 a year later when he won't be worth a crap until '24 at best
So Willis to the Lions is a lock you’re saying?
Willis scares me. He scares me as our pick and he scares me as the Lions pick. He can't play QB yet, but he's one of the best athletes I've seen. He could have a big impact if he goes to a team who just lets him be himself, be a Lamar Jackson rookie season type.
I can see a trade back that nets a 2023 first rounder as we prepare to take our QB OTF in the next draft. That is a very defensible move. But taking a LB over Jameson Williams, McDuffie, and Olave? No.
Quote: @dadevike said:
I can see a trade back that nets a 2023 first rounder as we prepare to take our QB OTF in the next draft. That is a very defensible move. But taking a LB over Jameson Williams, McDuffie, and Olave? No.
A trade back assumes that there will be a team looking to trade up. The lack of QB talent in this draft greatly reduces the pool of a teams looking to trade up.
|
