Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"StickyBun" said:
This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss.
I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt.
The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.
For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years.
Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.
This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.
I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick. Dont necessarily tank, but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution, get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process. Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.
Quote: @"JimmyinSD" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"StickyBun" said:
This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss.
I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt.
The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.
For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years.
Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.
This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.
I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick. Dont necessarily tank, but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution, get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process. Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.
Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.
Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was?
Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"StickyBun" said:
This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss.
I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt.
The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.
For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years.
Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.
This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.
I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick. Dont necessarily tank, but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution, get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process. Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.
Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.
Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was?
Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic.
but if you are in cap hell and part of that is due to those guys whos price tags are exceeding their performance, they will be just good enough to get you enough wins to not be able to draft high enough to get that top tier QB prospect that you mentioned. Sure you can luck into one, but I would rather have my pick of the litter and not hope that the runt turns out to be the next Brady or Wilson type pick. I think in order to rebuild on the fly you need to be able to identify guys that wont live up to their new deals and part with them before, not after you realize they wont be part of your long term plan. While the current group has drafted pretty decently, I dont think they are looking long term very well/realistically with their FA moves. ( Cousins and Barr are two that come to mind.)
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"StickyBun" said:
This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss.
I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt.
The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.
For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years.
Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.
This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.
I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick. Dont necessarily tank, but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution, get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process. Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.
Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.
Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was?
Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic.
Agree. It would be different if we had, for example, missed on Danielle and Dalvin and Jefferson and Kendricks and ISJ and Dantzler to name a few, but we didn't. Those are now cornerstones for a rolling, piecemeal rebuild. If we tore it all up, we'd be wasting a big chunk of their careers.
Quote: @"MaroonBells" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"StickyBun" said:
This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss.
I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt.
The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.
For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years.
Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.
This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.
I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick. Dont necessarily tank, but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution, get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process. Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.
Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.
Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was?
Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic.
Agree. It would be different if we had, for example, missed on Danielle and Dalvin and Jefferson and Kendricks and ISJ and Dantzler to name a few, but we didn't. Those are now cornerstones for a rolling, piecemeal rebuild. If we tore it all up, we'd be wasting a big chunk of their careers.
We been this team for the better part of 40 years. Enough good pieces to think we are close, but in reality we are just not good enough in the right areas and the "reloading" just seems to have become a perpetual state.
Quote: @"JimmyinSD" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"StickyBun" said:
This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss.
I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt.
The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.
For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years.
Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.
This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.
I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick. Dont necessarily tank, but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution, get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process. Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.
Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.
Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was?
Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic.
Agree. It would be different if we had, for example, missed on Danielle and Dalvin and Jefferson and Kendricks and ISJ and Dantzler to name a few, but we didn't. Those are now cornerstones for a rolling, piecemeal rebuild. If we tore it all up, we'd be wasting a big chunk of their careers.
We been this team for the better part of 40 years. Enough good pieces to think we are close, but in reality we are just not good enough in the right areas and the "reloading" just seems to have become a perpetual state.
I think that's just a perception. The players I listed aren't just cornerstones, they're potentially game changers. You get lucky on a few pieces around them and things can change very quickly.
Quote: @"MaroonBells" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"StickyBun" said:
This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss.
I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt.
The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.
For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years.
Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.
This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.
I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick. Dont necessarily tank, but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution, get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process. Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.
Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.
Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was?
Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic.
Agree. It would be different if we had, for example, missed on Danielle and Dalvin and Jefferson and Kendricks and ISJ and Dantzler to name a few, but we didn't. Those are now cornerstones for a rolling, piecemeal rebuild. If we tore it all up, we'd be wasting a big chunk of their careers.
We been this team for the better part of 40 years. Enough good pieces to think we are close, but in reality we are just not good enough in the right areas and the "reloading" just seems to have become a perpetual state.
I think that's just a perception. The players I listed aren't just cornerstones, they're potentially game changers. You get lucky on a few pieces around them and things can change very quickly.
no problems with any of them, but I still dont know that we are that close, especially considering what we will likely end up doing to our cap if they keep Cousins for this year and next... and then theirs the questions around Hunter. Will he come back to form, will he play for the money he is owed?
Quote: @"JimmyinSD" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"StickyBun" said:
This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss.
I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt.
The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.
For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years.
Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.
This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.
I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick. Dont necessarily tank, but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution, get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process. Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.
Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.
Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was?
Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic.
Agree. It would be different if we had, for example, missed on Danielle and Dalvin and Jefferson and Kendricks and ISJ and Dantzler to name a few, but we didn't. Those are now cornerstones for a rolling, piecemeal rebuild. If we tore it all up, we'd be wasting a big chunk of their careers.
We been this team for the better part of 40 years. Enough good pieces to think we are close, but in reality we are just not good enough in the right areas and the "reloading" just seems to have become a perpetual state.
I think that's just a perception. The players I listed aren't just cornerstones, they're potentially game changers. You get lucky on a few pieces around them and things can change very quickly.
no problems with any of them, but I still dont know that we are that close, especially considering what we will likely end up doing to our cap if they keep Cousins for this year and next... and then theirs the questions around Hunter. Will he come back to form, will he play for the money he is owed?
Cousins cap hit is not a problem for '21. Vikings I think will rank 10th in money spent at QB. '22 is the year where they surge to 1st and it becomes a problem. But I doubt we pay all of that. He'll either be traded or extended.
As far as Hunter goes, I don't know why he wouldn't return to form. I guess it's possible; anything's possible. Disk injuries are nothing to sneeze at, but he had the surgery that so many who have recurring disk problems choose to avoid.
And as far as his money goes, there's an argument that his missed year will make a hold out unlikely. Again, I can't recall any player who spent a year on IR and then held out the following year. It's not exactly high-pointing your value. But, hey, maybe that's an argument for doing it now (from the Vikings perspective). Even if we do extend him, his cap hit for '21 would likely stay the same or go down as we push money into future years, when players like Harry and Rudy and Reiff and maybe even Cousins are off the books. Hunter's definitely the kind of player you don't mind investing big future dollars to.
Quote: @"MaroonBells" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"StickyBun" said:
This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss.
I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt.
The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.
For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years.
Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.
This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.
I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick. Dont necessarily tank, but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution, get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process. Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.
Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.
Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was?
Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic.
Agree. It would be different if we had, for example, missed on Danielle and Dalvin and Jefferson and Kendricks and ISJ and Dantzler to name a few, but we didn't. Those are now cornerstones for a rolling, piecemeal rebuild. If we tore it all up, we'd be wasting a big chunk of their careers.
We been this team for the better part of 40 years. Enough good pieces to think we are close, but in reality we are just not good enough in the right areas and the "reloading" just seems to have become a perpetual state.
I think that's just a perception. The players I listed aren't just cornerstones, they're potentially game changers. You get lucky on a few pieces around them and things can change very quickly.
no problems with any of them, but I still dont know that we are that close, especially considering what we will likely end up doing to our cap if they keep Cousins for this year and next... and then theirs the questions around Hunter. Will he come back to form, will he play for the money he is owed?
Cousins cap hit is not a problem for '21. Vikings I think will rank 10th in money spent at QB. '22 is the year where they surge to 1st and it becomes a problem. But I doubt we pay all of that. He'll either be traded or extended.
As far as Hunter goes, I don't know why he wouldn't return to form. I guess it's possible; anything's possible. Disk injuries are nothing to sneeze at, but he had the surgery that so many who have recurring disk problems choose to avoid.
And as far as his money goes, there's an argument that his missed year will make a hold out unlikely. Again, I can't recall any player who spent a year on IR and then held out the following year. It's not exactly high-pointing your value. But, hey, maybe that's an argument for doing it now (from the Vikings perspective). Even if we do extend him, his cap hit for '21 would likely stay the same or go down as we push money into future years, when players like Harry and Rudy and Reiff and maybe even Cousins are off the books. Hunter's definitely the kind of player you don't mind investing big future dollars to.
But if we stick with Cousins this year we will have to pay him his full contract for the next two years on the first day of league start. That is 41 million I think?
Quote: @"JimmyinSD" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"StickyBun" said:
This was all structured th same way other teams that are talented do it: make a window to get to the Super Bowl. Vikings took a swing when they signed Cousins, kept Barr, restructured contracts, moved hard cap money around, etc. Now its time to pay the piper. It is what it is but I think Minnesota won't have the dynamic drop off that many teams do that swing and miss.
I agree that this is their window. They're extending it as long as they can, while they rebuild parts of the team. I would also argue that if they're able to retain some of the pivotal pieces (thinking in particular Barr, Harry) without hitting future books too hard, and hit on as many acquisitions this year as we did last year, then we're going to wake up one day and realize we've already rebuilt.
The best teams are able to do rolling rebuilds wherein they rebuild pieces at a time. And so never really tear it down to build it back up. I know some advocate for that. God knows why.
For example, Vikings rebuilt the corners last year. TEs are also done. The OL is 3/5 there. WR is on its way. We'll replace one of the safeties this year. I fully expect our two biggest acquisitions this spring (whether FA or the draft) to be a starting 3T and Edge rusher. With luck we can hit on those and then the DL is set for the next several years.
Now this doesn't mean all those players will be hits. Just that you've replaced an aging, expensive or ineffective player with a player you signed or drafted to be a starter.
This. Some of the best teams can even do it while never taking a step back. I think it all starts with the QB though. As long as you have that box checked it makes the rebuild that much easier. Where tanking starts to make sense is when you can't get a franchise QB. They don't grow on trees so draft and develop is the way to go. The unfortunate part is you likely need a top 3 pick for that.
I think sometimes you get yourself painted into a corner and need to just eat a season to get that top 3 pick. Dont necessarily tank, but quit paying guys that arent going to be part of the long term solution, get out of those contracts prior to the rebuild instead of having to deal with team as a hindrance to the process. Hell you might be able to add draft capital by moving on from those players and shorten your process by a year or more.
Yes an no. My personal belief is that you only completely tear the doors off an team if there are cultural issues. That accomplishes what you're suggesting by ridding yourself of high priced players via release or trade. Its kind of a risky game to play though since the veterans are your leaders and you need leadership to successfully rebuild. So you can't just kick people to the curb. There have definitely been teams have have eaten a season but there are too many relationships and egos to just say you're going to do it. The only time it works is when you bring in a new FO that has buy-in from ownership and they basically sabotage a coach that's a lame duck anyways.
Compare Adam Gase to Brian Flores. Although Flores is a better overall coach and culture cultivator he was brought in by the Dolphins to start from scratch. The entire perception was that he would have a 2-3 win team and would then move upwards. Gase went a mess in NY where the GM (MCG) was fighting to save his job and overpromising on a failing roster. When the roster inevitable failed they hired Joe Douglas. When Douglas yanked the bandage off and gave Gase a flawed roster guess who's fault it was?
Point is that game planning to eat a season is the ultimate tightrope walk. Its not one that would work right now in MN. Everyone would lose their jobs. But that doesn't mean they can't move on from certain players in hopes of finding low cost replacements. The complete rebuild just isn't needed or realistic.
Agree. It would be different if we had, for example, missed on Danielle and Dalvin and Jefferson and Kendricks and ISJ and Dantzler to name a few, but we didn't. Those are now cornerstones for a rolling, piecemeal rebuild. If we tore it all up, we'd be wasting a big chunk of their careers.
We been this team for the better part of 40 years. Enough good pieces to think we are close, but in reality we are just not good enough in the right areas and the "reloading" just seems to have become a perpetual state.
I think that's just a perception. The players I listed aren't just cornerstones, they're potentially game changers. You get lucky on a few pieces around them and things can change very quickly.
no problems with any of them, but I still dont know that we are that close, especially considering what we will likely end up doing to our cap if they keep Cousins for this year and next... and then theirs the questions around Hunter. Will he come back to form, will he play for the money he is owed?
I don't disagree that you often need to make changes to get over the hump. But you don't need to tank to make wholesale changes. If the Vikings are that convinced there is a franchise QB in this draft (E.G Chiefs and Mahomes) they have assets to move up the draft board. It would cost a lot but it can be done. Both the Rams and Eagles did it for Goff/Wentz.
The Rams under Fischer in 2013-2015 are similar to the Vikings in some ways. They didn't have to rebuild but they did need to fire the coach and make a move up the draft board for a QB. It has worked well for them. The Browns, Lions, Bengals, etc.. have had plenty of high picks to get it right. High picks help but they aren't an easy answer either.
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