Quote: @"Wetlander" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
Cousins is a top third QB. You don't just toss that aside for a roll at the craps table, potentially setting the franchise back years and wasting the primes of players like Cook, Jefferson, Hunter, etc.
Now, do you draft a QB to sit and learn for a year or two? Maybe, but I don't think you do it if an impact player who can help you win now is on the board.
I'm not ragging on you, Maroon... because what you say is logical in theory. But I find it funny that all these issues with Cousins have seem to evaporated because people are just looking at his final stat line and overlooking how he performed against the good teams we played this season.
Except that's not what I'm doing. I'm basing this on what I saw, not final stat lines. I say top third because that's what I think. I have no idea where he ranks in terms of stats. I saw a QB who looked like shit early on against good teams and bad. I saw him play much better as the season wore on against good teams and bad.
And I compare that to what i know the draft is: a complete crapshoot. So to me it comes down to odds. Are we more likely to win a super bowl next year with Cousins and a first round pass rusher or left guard? Or a young QB and none of the above?
I say the former, because that QB, while he might be Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes, it's actually more likely he's Trubisky or Wentz or Rosen or Darnold or Winston or Mariota. The odds just aren't very good.
No, as PF always says, you won't find out unless you try. But what is the cost of finding out? All the QBs listed above were taken top 10. We pick 14th. Unless we invest an enormous amount of draft capital, we won't be getting Lawrence, Wilson or Fields (who scares the hell outta me). I need more time on Lance and the rest give me a Ponderous feel. When we were 1-5 and it looked like we had a chance at a top 5 pick, I was all for it. Now THAT was a slam dunk. Top 5 pick? Cousins looking like crap? Got get a damn QB! But I changed my mind. As I start looking more into the 2nd tier QBs I could change it again.
GB should have helped Rogers with a WR this past draft. Instead they had conviction on a QB and took Love. Wont help them a bit this year, or next. Time will tell if that was a good move or not. But they had the conviction to do it.
All that said, we're certainly not GB....
I'll parrot myself and say if the front office has conviction on a kid @ QB, I hope they pull the trigger. They will have a lot of improvement alone through getting 3 FOUR heavy hitters back on D, getting rid of Malouf and baby corners having a year under their belts.
Quote: @"MaroonBells" said:
@"Wetlander" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
Cousins is a top third QB. You don't just toss that aside for a roll at the craps table, potentially setting the franchise back years and wasting the primes of players like Cook, Jefferson, Hunter, etc.
Now, do you draft a QB to sit and learn for a year or two? Maybe, but I don't think you do it if an impact player who can help you win now is on the board.
I'm not ragging on you, Maroon... because what you say is logical in theory. But I find it funny that all these issues with Cousins have seem to evaporated because people are just looking at his final stat line and overlooking how he performed against the good teams we played this season.
Except that's not what I'm doing. I'm basing this on what I saw, not final stat lines. I say top third because that's what I think. I have no idea where he ranks in terms of stats. I saw a QB who looked like shit early on against good teams and bad. I saw him play much better as the season wore on against good teams and bad.
And I compare that to what i know the draft is: a complete crapshoot. So to me it comes down to odds. Are we more likely to win a super bowl next year with Cousins and a first round pass rusher or left guard? Or a young QB and none of the above?
I say the former, because that QB, while he might be Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes, it's actually more likely he's Trubisky or Wentz or Rosen or Darnold or Winston or Mariota. The odds just aren't very good.
No, as PF always says, you won't find out unless you try. But what is the cost of finding out? All the QBs listed above were taken top 10. We pick 14th. Unless we invest an enormous amount of draft capital, we won't be getting Lawrence, Wilson or Fields (who scares the hell outta me). I need more time on Lance and the rest give me a Ponderous feel. When we were 1-5 and it looked like we had a chance at a top 5 pick, I was all for it. Now THAT was a slam dunk. Top 5 pick? Cousins looking like crap? Got get a damn QB! But I changed my mind. As I start looking more into the 2nd tier QBs I could change it again.
That's what I'm saying... you changed your mind because he played better in the second half of the season. Isn't that the definition of Cousins career? Plays good for about half the season with some brutal stretches of bad play with a few average performances mixed in?
I get what you're saying about what makes us a "contender"... it's easy to fall into the trap of well if we can add an impact player and get some guys back, we have a shot at the Super Bowl with Cousins...
Well, we had the 4th ranked defense in points given up in 2018 and went 8-7-1. Yes, Dalvin got hurt, but we had Thielen and Diggs in their prime. Cousins had plenty of pieces around him to make a playoff run, but we fell short. In 2019, the defense was 6th in points allowed and 14th in yards... Had Dalvin, Diggs, Thielen... Cousins won his first playoff game and then played worse than Jimmy G (who's shitty play kept us in that game longer than we should have been) in the Divisional Round.
The defense fell off this year, but part we lost games purely from Cousins poor play and the offense not playing complimentary football. If we add an impact player on defense in the first round or an OL AND the defense improves (but likely not to the 2018 or 2019 level), are we suddenly a Super Bowl contender? History says no.
Quote: @"AGRforever" said:
@"Vikergirl" said:
If he gets better protection and if they move forward to a more modern offense. They have to take off the training wheels and let it rip, otherwise they won't progress.
We were 14th in passing and 5th in rushing this year.
We were also 4th in total offense. We were only 16 yards per game behind the top team in Kansas City.
Cousis and the offense didnt screw the pooch this year. If Zimmer is to remain coach he needs to figure out WTF went wrong on defense and fix it. The offense is playing at a playoff caliber level.
Pretty obvious wha what wrong with the defense isn't it? All three starting CBs gone: Waynes, Rhodes, Alexander (yes I consider NB/slot corner a starter) then 3/4ths of starting Defensive line gone: Griffen, Joseph to FA, and Hunter to injury. Then to add insult to injury the big FA signing of Pierce blows up as he opts out due to COVID and his asthma and Barr tears a pectoral muscle in first game of season. Then Kendricks is gone the last 5 games due to injury. Mike Hughes gets hurt early also gone for season and Holton Hill as well. On top of all this yes the Vikings were going with the youth movement transition and COVID hits and no OTAs, truncated training camps and NO PRESEASON games. That's a killer for a team planning on going with a lot of young players and rookies on defense.
Quote: @"Vikergirl" said:
@"AGRforever" said:
@"Vikergirl" said:
If he gets better protection and if they move forward to a more modern offense. They have to take off the training wheels and let it rip, otherwise they won't progress.
We were 14th in passing and 5th in rushing this year.
We were also 4th in total offense. We were only 16 yards per game behind the top team in Kansas City.
Cousis and the offense didnt screw the pooch this year. If Zimmer is to remain coach he needs to figure out WTF went wrong on defense and fix it. The offense is playing at a playoff caliber level.
There are definitely issues on defense. The offense is an issue because of the over emphasis on the run game. Those stats that you mentioned are great but winning is the stat that needs improvement. The emphasis on the run and the offense showing up in the second half puts them behind. They need to improve the two minute drill and clock management. Both sides of the ball need improvement. The defense is a huge unknown at this point. Get a guard. Cousins has faced a lot of pressure and needs protection. I don't have any expectations for the defense next year because of the unknowns of Hunter and Pierce. Hoping for better though. Use the tight ends and receivers more.
While true how many losses of the 9 this year can you truly point to the offense and say the Vikings lost because of them. All I can is the Colts game. Other than that I put the losses on the defense and Bailey.
Quote: @"Wetlander" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"Wetlander" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
Cousins is a top third QB. You don't just toss that aside for a roll at the craps table, potentially setting the franchise back years and wasting the primes of players like Cook, Jefferson, Hunter, etc.
Now, do you draft a QB to sit and learn for a year or two? Maybe, but I don't think you do it if an impact player who can help you win now is on the board.
I'm not ragging on you, Maroon... because what you say is logical in theory. But I find it funny that all these issues with Cousins have seem to evaporated because people are just looking at his final stat line and overlooking how he performed against the good teams we played this season.
Except that's not what I'm doing. I'm basing this on what I saw, not final stat lines. I say top third because that's what I think. I have no idea where he ranks in terms of stats. I saw a QB who looked like shit early on against good teams and bad. I saw him play much better as the season wore on against good teams and bad.
And I compare that to what i know the draft is: a complete crapshoot. So to me it comes down to odds. Are we more likely to win a super bowl next year with Cousins and a first round pass rusher or left guard? Or a young QB and none of the above?
I say the former, because that QB, while he might be Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes, it's actually more likely he's Trubisky or Wentz or Rosen or Darnold or Winston or Mariota. The odds just aren't very good.
No, as PF always says, you won't find out unless you try. But what is the cost of finding out? All the QBs listed above were taken top 10. We pick 14th. Unless we invest an enormous amount of draft capital, we won't be getting Lawrence, Wilson or Fields (who scares the hell outta me). I need more time on Lance and the rest give me a Ponderous feel. When we were 1-5 and it looked like we had a chance at a top 5 pick, I was all for it. Now THAT was a slam dunk. Top 5 pick? Cousins looking like crap? Got get a damn QB! But I changed my mind. As I start looking more into the 2nd tier QBs I could change it again.
That's what I'm saying... you changed your mind because he played better in the second half of the season. Isn't that the definition of Cousins career? Plays good for about half the season with some brutal stretches of bad play with a few average performances mixed in?
I get what you're saying about what makes us a "contender"... it's easy to fall into the trap of well if we can add an impact player and get some guys back, we have a shot at the Super Bowl with Cousins...
Well, we had the 4th ranked defense in points given up in 2018 and went 8-7-1. Yes, Dalvin got hurt, but we had Thielen and Diggs in their prime. Cousins had plenty of pieces around him to make a playoff run, but we fell short. In 2019, the defense was 6th in points allowed and 14th in yards... Had Dalvin, Diggs, Thielen... Cousins won his first playoff game and then played worse than Jimmy G (who's shitty play kept us in that game longer than we should have been) in the Divisional Round.
The defense fell off this year, but part we lost games purely from Cousins poor play and the offense not playing complimentary football. If we add an impact player on defense in the first round or an OL AND the defense improves (but likely not to the 2018 or 2019 level), are we suddenly a Super Bowl contender? History says no.
49ers pushed the Vikings defense all over the field in the second half of that game. Rushed for 190 total while the Vikings rushed for 21 in that game and you are blaming Cousins? I watched that game and the Vikings lost it along the lines on both sides. Griffen and Joseph showed their age. They ran all over the defense and dominated the Vikings offensive line for the whole 2nd half.
My take on Cousins: He holds the ball too long, and not just too long for our undersized pass blockers but too long in general. He can’t move well in the pocket either. You don’t often see him climb the pocket well. These are things that killed good offensive drives this season, and past seasons. He does have the quick strike downfield bomb ability and we have 2 guys on our roster who are awesome targets. If we’re keeping cousins, we need to keep building that O line. We need to draft a dandy LG.
Saying all that, I have to keep going back to the fact that this long-suffering franchise and fan base have had 1, only 1, team-drafted true franchise caliber QB...drafted allllll the way back in 1961, 8 years before this Viking fan was born...anybody on this message board not think we NEED to find that next franchise guy already???? It is the singular reason we haven’t ever won a Super Bowl, and will not change unless we find that guy, IMO.
No, it’s not easy to find and draft franchise QBs and sometimes it’s just dumb luck (see the Seattle Seahawks, New England Patriots and the San Francisco 49ers for examples). Still, the rent-a-QB method has been well-tried and to date a wholly unsuccessful method employed by our favorite team (see Jim Mcmahon, Warren Moon, Randall Cunningham, Jeff George, Brett Favre, Donovan McNabb, Sam Bradford and our friend Kirk Cousins, among others...they are just the more notable names).
After this many years of QB futlity, dumb luck stumbling upon a franchise QB just doesn’t seem possible for our beloved Vikings. And further, when we’ve seemed to have made concerted efforts to target a QB this has failed as well. “Pondering” the prospects hasn’t been a strong suit of our team.  I am at a loss about it. Fellow long-suffering franchises like the Bills and Browns seem to have theirs now, are we going to keep chasing our tail forever on the rent-a-QB carousel?
Quote: @"Chuckf" said:
@"AGRforever" said:
@"Vikergirl" said:
If he gets better protection and if they move forward to a more modern offense. They have to take off the training wheels and let it rip, otherwise they won't progress.
We were 14th in passing and 5th in rushing this year.
We were also 4th in total offense. We were only 16 yards per game behind the top team in Kansas City.
Cousis and the offense didnt screw the pooch this year. If Zimmer is to remain coach he needs to figure out WTF went wrong on defense and fix it. The offense is playing at a playoff caliber level.
Pretty obvious wha what wrong with the defense isn't it? All three starting CBs gone: Waynes, Rhodes, Alexander (yes I consider NB/slot corner a starter) then 3/4ths of starting Defensive line gone: Griffen, Joseph to FA, and Hunter to injury. Then to add insult to injury the big FA signing of Pierce blows up as he opts out due to COVID and his asthma and Barr tears a pectoral muscle in first game of season. Then Kendricks is gone the last 5 games due to injury. Mike Hughes gets hurt early also gone for season and Holton Hill as well. On top of all this yes the Vikings were going with the youth movement transition and COVID hits and no OTAs, truncated training camps and NO PRESEASON games. That's a killer for a team planning on going with a lot of young players and rookies on defense.
The original question/answer is obvious, the fix it question is the harder one. Do our baby DB's get better next year? Do you move on from Barr and/or Smith? Do Pierce and Hunter come back? Lots and lots of questions that our D guru coach needs to get figured out. If he can even improve our D to middle of the pack or even into the top 1/3rd we're a playoff team again.
Quote: @"prairieghost" said:
My take on Cousins: He holds the ball too long, and not just too long for our undersized pass blockers but too long in general. He can’t move well in the pocket either. You don’t often see him climb the pocket well. These are things that killed good offensive drives this season, and past seasons. He does have the quick strike downfield bomb ability and we have 2 guys on our roster who are awesome targets. If we’re keeping cousins, we need to keep building that O line. We need to draft a dandy LG.
Saying all that, I have to keep going back to the fact that this long-suffering franchise and fan base have had 1, only 1, team-drafted true franchise caliber QB...drafted allllll the way back in 1961, 8 years before this Viking fan was born...anybody on this message board not think we NEED to find that next franchise guy already???? It is the singular reason we haven’t ever won a Super Bowl, and will not change unless we find that guy, IMO.
No, it’s not easy to find and draft franchise QBs and sometimes it’s just dumb luck (see the Seattle Seahawks, New England Patriots and the San Francisco 49ers for examples). Still, the rent-a-QB method has been well-tried and to date a wholly unsuccessful method employed by our favorite team (see Jim Mcmahon, Warren Moon, Randall Cunningham, Jeff George, Brett Favre, Donovan McNabb, Sam Bradford and our friend Kirk Cousins, among others...they are just the more notable names).
After this many years of QB futlity, dumb luck stumbling upon a franchise QB just doesn’t seem possible for our beloved Vikings. And further, when we’ve seemed to have made concerted efforts to target a QB this has failed as well. “Pondering” the prospects hasn’t been a strong suit of our team. I am at a loss about it. Fellow long-suffering franchises like the Bills and Browns seem to have theirs now, are we going to keep chasing our tail forever on the rent-a-QB carousel?
Daunte Cullpeper was a franchise QB....until his knee blew out against Carolina. Who knows if Teddy would have improved any or if he would only be the Teddy he is today?
We've tried drafting QBs. Obviously we need to try again but we've tried.
Cousins will be 33 when the next season starts.... does anybody think he is the type of guy that is going to try and play until he is 40? I would guess he has a couple good years left and then what?
GBay didnt need Rogers, Favre was obviously still playing at a very high level and they had other needs, but if you want to find Cousins replacement in the draft you need to start looking now instead of when it is an immediate need. It sucks not having a 2nd rounder to grab a top tier OG, but thats how shit rolls, still doesnt mean that in a QB heavy draft that we shouldnt be looking to the future and taking one in the first if at all possible this year.
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