Andy Reid just did it, I believe in his 7th season w/ KC...
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Quote: @Jor-El said:
Well, Andy Reid joined the Chiefs in 2013 and reached the Super Bowl in his 7th season (2019). So Zimmer could match that by winning the SB this season. I'm not holding my breath..
I think the similarities between Reid and Zimmer end with his years of service. First, Reid had 14 years as an NFL HC before joining the Chiefs. A lot of coaches (Pete Carrol, Bill Belichick to name a couple) were far better in their second term as a coach - I've often thought Zimmer could be a better coach if we fired him and he took that experience elsewhere.
More importantly, look at the Chiefs' record during Reid's tenure: 11-5, 9-7, 11-5, 12-4, 10-6, 12-4, 12-4. The team stayed strong, generally improving. But Zimmer's is 7-9, 11-5, 8-8, 13-3, 8-7-1, 10-6. He's up and down every other season, and that follows his strength of schedule. His better years happen when he gets to play a 3rd-place schedule.
I'm in agreement, just had to cite the Reid comparison.
What put Andy Reid over the hump was having the balls within the organization (Dorsey GM and Reid with support) in moving from #27 up to #10 and getting Mahomes. We need that conviction and balls this draft if 2 things: We evaluate and think their is a stud and they are within our reach? So say we are around 15-20 pick next draft. Using the Chiefs as an example from 27 to 10, would we have the ammo to crack that 7-10 pick and grab a guy like Wilson (my current man crush). I am not looking up now but the Chiefs gave up several 1st rounders a 2nd and a few more picks. So for us to move into Top 10 even from 15,16 would require more probably.
The Chiefs made that move 3 years ago after 12-4, 10-6 records and division crowns and Alex Smith a Pro Bowl. They acknowledged the fact that they had a very good roster with a limited QB (sound familiar) who was not going to take the team over the hump. Mahomes sat his rookie year and Dorsey GM moved on before Mahomes ever started but that was a ballsy call.
I am becoming a broken record on numerous threads so I will be brief: Can Zimmer, tell Spelly to look future QB in this draft so basically an eye for the future, Keep Kubiak to groom said QB, and hire a guy like the 49'ers DC - Saleh. Have the balls to move up from the mid/late teens and into the 7-10 range for a guy like Wilson. Basically follow the Chiefs model of conviction.
Quote: @minny65 said:
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Quote: @Jor-El said:
Well, Andy Reid joined the Chiefs in 2013 and reached the Super Bowl in his 7th season (2019). So Zimmer could match that by winning the SB this season. I'm not holding my breath..
I think the similarities between Reid and Zimmer end with his years of service. First, Reid had 14 years as an NFL HC before joining the Chiefs. A lot of coaches (Pete Carrol, Bill Belichick to name a couple) were far better in their second term as a coach - I've often thought Zimmer could be a better coach if we fired him and he took that experience elsewhere.
More importantly, look at the Chiefs' record during Reid's tenure: 11-5, 9-7, 11-5, 12-4, 10-6, 12-4, 12-4. The team stayed strong, generally improving. But Zimmer's is 7-9, 11-5, 8-8, 13-3, 8-7-1, 10-6. He's up and down every other season, and that follows his strength of schedule. His better years happen when he gets to play a 3rd-place schedule.
I'm in agreement, just had to cite the Reid comparison.
What put Andy Reid over the hump was having the balls within the organization (Dorsey GM and Reid with support) in moving from #27 up to #10 and getting Mahomes. We need that conviction and balls this draft if 2 things: We evaluate and think their is a stud and they are within our reach? So say we are around 15-20 pick next draft. Using the Chiefs as an example from 27 to 10, would we have the ammo to crack that 7-10 pick and grab a guy like Wilson (my current man crush). I am not looking up now but the Chiefs gave up several 1st rounders a 2nd and a few more picks. So for us to move into Top 10 even from 15,16 would require more probably.
The Chiefs made that move 3 years ago after 12-4, 10-6 records and division crowns and Alex Smith a Pro Bowl. They acknowledged the fact that they had a very good roster with a limited QB (sound familiar) who was not going to take the team over the hump. Mahomes sat his rookie year and Dorsey GM moved on before Mahomes ever started but that was a ballsy call.
I am becoming a broken record on numerous threads so I will be brief: Can Zimmer, tell Spelly to look future QB in this draft so basically an eye for the future, Keep Kubiak to groom said QB, and hire a guy like the 49'ers DC - Saleh. Have the balls to move up from the mid/late teens and into the 7-10 range for a guy like Wilson. Basically follow the Chiefs model of conviction.
Do you think he can? I do not think we can follow the Chiefs' model, for 3 reasons:
- Zimmer is conservative, especially in offensive philosophy - which is unlike Reid. I don't think Zimmer would even prioritize a quarterback, certainly not one who wanted to throw aggressively.
- Kubiak doesn't have a record of developing QBs. The best QBs he worked with were established vets: Young, Elway, Manning, Flacco, Schaub.
- Spielman has a bad track record picking QBs. I know there are things Spielman has done effectively as GM, but not selecting QBs (not just his drafts, but overpaying for Bradford and Cousins). If you believe finding a great QB is THE priority for the Vikings' future, you can't also argue to keep Spielman.
I don't see anyone that you could say Kubiak developed from an early point in their careers (maybe Schaub), but it does sure look like he elevated many to career best seasons. And honestly, I'm getting the sense that Cousins will be here for at least the short term, if not the long run. If that's the case, we're definitely going to have to build up that O-Line and maybe add another piece to the WR corps.
https://www.denverpost.com/2016/10/22/qb-whisperer-how-gary-kubiak-is-able-to-get-the-best-out-of-his-quarterbacks/Notable%20quarterbacks%20coached%20by%20Gary%20Kubiak
Steve Young, 1994, 49ers
Kubiak’s first NFL coaching job was with the 49ers, as their quarterbacks coach. That season, Young was selected to his third Pro Bowl and earned his third first-team all-pro selection. He won a Super Bowl title (XXIX) and the game’s MVP award, and led the league in completion percentage (70.3), passing touchdowns (35) and passer rating (112.8).
John Elway, 1995-98, Broncos
After nine seasons as Elway’s backup, Kubiak returned to Denver as his offensive coordinator and QBs coach to help him earn three more Pro Bowl selections and back-to-back Super Bowl wins. Elway had a career-high 27 TDs in 1997 and a career-high 93.0 passer rating in 1998. He was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2004 and sits atop the Broncos’ record books in career passing yards (51,475) and TD passes (300), among other categories.
Brian Griese, 1998-2002, Broncos
Griese passed for 3,032 yards in his first season as the starter, following Elway’s retirement in 1999. He was selected to his first and only Pro Bowl in 2000, when he threw only four interceptions and posted a league-best 102.9 passer rating. Griese never topped 2,632 passing yards in a season after his release from the Broncos in 2003.
Jake Plummer, 2003-05, Broncos
Signed as a free agent in 2003, Plummer reached career highs with Kubiak as his coordinator and position coach in Denver. His 62.6 completion percentage in 2003 and 4,089 passing yards in 2004 were both career bests. He was named to his first and only Pro Bowl in 2005 and ranks second all time among Broncos starting QBs with a .722 (39-15) winning percentage.
Matt Schaub, 2007-13, Texans
With Kubiak as his head coach, Schaub earned two Pro Bowl selections (2009, ’12). He led the league in completions (396), attempts (583) and passing yards (4,770) in 2009, while recording career highs in touchdowns (29) and passer rating (98.6) that year.
Joe Flacco, 2014, Ravens
In his lone season with Kubiak as his offensive coordinator, Flacco set career highs with 27 passing touchdowns and 3,986 passing yards, and posted a 91.0 passer rating. He led the Ravens to a 10-6 record and was named a Pro Bowl alternate but did not play in the game.
Peyton Manning, 2015, Broncos
In his most trying season since his rookie year, Manning missed seven starts to recuperate from a foot injury but returned in the regular-season finale to lead the Broncos to their third Super Bowl title (his second). He retired in March 2016 with a pair of rings and a slew of Broncos and NFL records, including his 71,940 career passing yards and 539 passing touchdowns.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ minny65 said:
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Quote: @Jor-El said:
Well, Andy Reid joined the Chiefs in 2013 and reached the Super Bowl in his 7th season (2019). So Zimmer could match that by winning the SB this season. I'm not holding my breath..
I think the similarities between Reid and Zimmer end with his years of service. First, Reid had 14 years as an NFL HC before joining the Chiefs. A lot of coaches (Pete Carrol, Bill Belichick to name a couple) were far better in their second term as a coach - I've often thought Zimmer could be a better coach if we fired him and he took that experience elsewhere.
More importantly, look at the Chiefs' record during Reid's tenure: 11-5, 9-7, 11-5, 12-4, 10-6, 12-4, 12-4. The team stayed strong, generally improving. But Zimmer's is 7-9, 11-5, 8-8, 13-3, 8-7-1, 10-6. He's up and down every other season, and that follows his strength of schedule. His better years happen when he gets to play a 3rd-place schedule.
I'm in agreement, just had to cite the Reid comparison.
What put Andy Reid over the hump was having the balls within the organization (Dorsey GM and Reid with support) in moving from #27 up to #10 and getting Mahomes. We need that conviction and balls this draft if 2 things: We evaluate and think their is a stud and they are within our reach? So say we are around 15-20 pick next draft. Using the Chiefs as an example from 27 to 10, would we have the ammo to crack that 7-10 pick and grab a guy like Wilson (my current man crush). I am not looking up now but the Chiefs gave up several 1st rounders a 2nd and a few more picks. So for us to move into Top 10 even from 15,16 would require more probably.
The Chiefs made that move 3 years ago after 12-4, 10-6 records and division crowns and Alex Smith a Pro Bowl. They acknowledged the fact that they had a very good roster with a limited QB (sound familiar) who was not going to take the team over the hump. Mahomes sat his rookie year and Dorsey GM moved on before Mahomes ever started but that was a ballsy call.
I am becoming a broken record on numerous threads so I will be brief: Can Zimmer, tell Spelly to look future QB in this draft so basically an eye for the future, Keep Kubiak to groom said QB, and hire a guy like the 49'ers DC - Saleh. Have the balls to move up from the mid/late teens and into the 7-10 range for a guy like Wilson. Basically follow the Chiefs model of conviction.
Do you think he can? I do not think we can follow the Chiefs' model, for 3 reasons:
- Zimmer is conservative, especially in offensive philosophy - which is unlike Reid. I don't think Zimmer would even prioritize a quarterback, certainly not one who wanted to throw aggressively.
- Kubiak doesn't have a record of developing QBs. The best QBs he worked with were established vets: Young, Elway, Manning, Flacco, Schaub.
- Spielman has a bad track record picking QBs. I know there are things Spielman has done effectively as GM, but not selecting QBs (not just his drafts, but overpaying for Bradford and Cousins). If you believe finding a great QB is THE priority for the Vikings' future, you can't also argue to keep Spielman.
Responses:
1 - yea that is why I would can Zimmer.
2 - I like Kubiak as an OC and would want to retain to have some consistency and get some input from him on drafting a young QB. Is he the perfect candidate for that job probably not but I can't think of anyone else at the moment. He certainly has a very good track record as an OC and working with top notch QB's.
3 - Spelly became GM in 2012 and I am a big proponent of giving credit or blame according to their title and responsibilities. Before the Wilf's appointed one GM they had the horrible, and unheard of, triangle of confusion/blame. I do not put the bad Ponder pick on Spelly. I blame the triangle. The Wilf's should have appointed Spelly sooner - IMO. Since Spelly became GM in 2012 and 8 drafts he has drafted only 2 QB's (witch I probably would have taken a couple more flyers).
The 2 QB's are Teddy and Stanley (with one of the last 10 picks of the draft last year). At the time of the 2014 draft I liked the Teddy pick. Pre Draft, I actually liked Blake Bortles the best (what do I know) and wanted us to avoid both Manziel and Carr. Others did like Carr but I was not one of them. We moved up from 40 to 32 to get Teddy probably because we thought the Raiders were looking for QB and we wanted to have our choice before the Raiders. Again, I like the aggressiveness to move up for someone you want. After Teddy at 32 and Carr at 36 the only other good QB drafted in 2014 is Garoppolo at pick 62. Obviously Carr and Garop have turned out better then Teddy but (IMO) neither are franchise QB's. Obviously Teddy was a better pick (consolation) then the Top 2 QB's that went ahead - Bortles and Manziel. Again, with Hindsight I don't see any QB in 2014 that would have been a franchise QB.
So your opinion of not being able to want to draft a QB and keep Spielman to do so I disagree with that premise.
Quote: @minny65 said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ minny65 said:
Quote:
Quote: @Jor-El said:
Well, Andy Reid joined the Chiefs in 2013 and reached the Super Bowl in his 7th season (2019). So Zimmer could match that by winning the SB this season. I'm not holding my breath..
I think the similarities between Reid and Zimmer end with his years of service. First, Reid had 14 years as an NFL HC before joining the Chiefs. A lot of coaches (Pete Carrol, Bill Belichick to name a couple) were far better in their second term as a coach - I've often thought Zimmer could be a better coach if we fired him and he took that experience elsewhere.
More importantly, look at the Chiefs' record during Reid's tenure: 11-5, 9-7, 11-5, 12-4, 10-6, 12-4, 12-4. The team stayed strong, generally improving. But Zimmer's is 7-9, 11-5, 8-8, 13-3, 8-7-1, 10-6. He's up and down every other season, and that follows his strength of schedule. His better years happen when he gets to play a 3rd-place schedule.
I'm in agreement, just had to cite the Reid comparison.
What put Andy Reid over the hump was having the balls within the organization (Dorsey GM and Reid with support) in moving from #27 up to #10 and getting Mahomes. We need that conviction and balls this draft if 2 things: We evaluate and think their is a stud and they are within our reach? So say we are around 15-20 pick next draft. Using the Chiefs as an example from 27 to 10, would we have the ammo to crack that 7-10 pick and grab a guy like Wilson (my current man crush). I am not looking up now but the Chiefs gave up several 1st rounders a 2nd and a few more picks. So for us to move into Top 10 even from 15,16 would require more probably.
The Chiefs made that move 3 years ago after 12-4, 10-6 records and division crowns and Alex Smith a Pro Bowl. They acknowledged the fact that they had a very good roster with a limited QB (sound familiar) who was not going to take the team over the hump. Mahomes sat his rookie year and Dorsey GM moved on before Mahomes ever started but that was a ballsy call.
I am becoming a broken record on numerous threads so I will be brief: Can Zimmer, tell Spelly to look future QB in this draft so basically an eye for the future, Keep Kubiak to groom said QB, and hire a guy like the 49'ers DC - Saleh. Have the balls to move up from the mid/late teens and into the 7-10 range for a guy like Wilson. Basically follow the Chiefs model of conviction.
Do you think he can? I do not think we can follow the Chiefs' model, for 3 reasons:
- Zimmer is conservative, especially in offensive philosophy - which is unlike Reid. I don't think Zimmer would even prioritize a quarterback, certainly not one who wanted to throw aggressively.
- Kubiak doesn't have a record of developing QBs. The best QBs he worked with were established vets: Young, Elway, Manning, Flacco, Schaub.
- Spielman has a bad track record picking QBs. I know there are things Spielman has done effectively as GM, but not selecting QBs (not just his drafts, but overpaying for Bradford and Cousins). If you believe finding a great QB is THE priority for the Vikings' future, you can't also argue to keep Spielman.
Responses:
1 - yea that is why I would can Zimmer.
2 - I like Kubiak as an OC and would want to retain to have some consistency and get some input from him on drafting a young QB. Is he the perfect candidate for that job probably not but I can't think of anyone else at the moment. He certainly has a very good track record as an OC and working with top notch QB's.
3 - Spelly became GM in 2012 and I am a big proponent of giving credit or blame according to their title and responsibilities. Before the Wilf's appointed one GM they had the horrible, and unheard of, triangle of confusion/blame. I do not put the bad Ponder pick on Spelly. I blame the triangle. The Wilf's should have appointed Spelly sooner - IMO. Since Spelly became GM in 2012 and 8 drafts he has drafted only 2 QB's (witch I probably would have taken a couple more flyers).
The 2 QB's are Teddy and Stanley (with one of the last 10 picks of the draft last year). At the time of the 2014 draft I liked the Teddy pick. Pre Draft, I actually liked Blake Bortles the best (what do I know) and wanted us to avoid both Manziel and Carr. Others did like Carr but I was not one of them. We moved up from 40 to 32 to get Teddy probably because we thought the Raiders were looking for QB and we wanted to have our choice before the Raiders. Again, I like the aggressiveness to move up for someone you want. After Teddy at 32 and Carr at 36 the only other good QB drafted in 2014 is Garoppolo at pick 62. Obviously Carr and Garop have turned out better then Teddy but (IMO) neither are franchise QB's. Obviously Teddy was a better pick (consolation) then the Top 2 QB's that went ahead - Bortles and Manziel. Again, with Hindsight I don't see any QB in 2014 that would have been a franchise QB.
So your opinion of not being able to want to draft a QB and keep Spielman to do so I disagree with that premise.
#2 (Keep Kubiak): I don't necessarily disagree, but if you replace Zimmer most of his staff likely leaves, and if you want an offensive-minded coach, the odds he keeps Kubiak are low.
#3: I can't agree with your contention that Spielman was not responsible for Ponder. I know he was not full GM but he handled player evaluation and draft above all others, and by the time Ponder was drafted Childress was gone. In the article below, he takes responsibility for picking Ponder:
Despite Ponder history, Spielman not afraid to draft QB | FOX Sports
"I know I’m going to get criticized and I took full responsibility for Christian Ponder, is he a bust or is he not a bust," Spielman said.
Aside from being a plain bad choice, Ponder was a conservative - I would really say gutless - pick. People want us to find a Mahomes or Lamar Jackson or Deshaun Watson QB who can move, but Spielman has chosen Bradford and Cousins, traditional pocket passers, and even Ponder and Bridgewater were hardly spectacular athletes with aggressive playing style. There is nothing to even indicate he believes the team needs a different type of QB.
Quote: @PurpleCrush said:
And honestly, I'm getting the sense that Cousins will be here for at least the short term, if not the long run. If that's the case, we're definitely going to have to build up that O-Line and maybe add another piece to the WR corps..
Despite my discussion with you guys, ultimately I think you are correct in this regard: we're very likely to stick with Cousins, probably for the 2 years remaining on his contract. I expect Zimmer and Spielman to both be in their positions next year, and they will NOT spend a high draft pick on a QB next spring, because every early draft pick will be used to fill the current holes in the team. IMO the only debates will be whether to help the defense or offense.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ minny65 said:
@ Jor-El said:
Responses:
1 - yea that is why I would can Zimmer.
2 - I like Kubiak as an OC and would want to retain to have some consistency and get some input from him on drafting a young QB. Is he the perfect candidate for that job probably not but I can't think of anyone else at the moment. He certainly has a very good track record as an OC and working with top notch QB's.
3 - Spelly became GM in 2012 and I am a big proponent of giving credit or blame according to their title and responsibilities. Before the Wilf's appointed one GM they had the horrible, and unheard of, triangle of confusion/blame. I do not put the bad Ponder pick on Spelly. I blame the triangle. The Wilf's should have appointed Spelly sooner - IMO. Since Spelly became GM in 2012 and 8 drafts he has drafted only 2 QB's (witch I probably would have taken a couple more flyers).
The 2 QB's are Teddy and Stanley (with one of the last 10 picks of the draft last year). At the time of the 2014 draft I liked the Teddy pick. Pre Draft, I actually liked Blake Bortles the best (what do I know) and wanted us to avoid both Manziel and Carr. Others did like Carr but I was not one of them. We moved up from 40 to 32 to get Teddy probably because we thought the Raiders were looking for QB and we wanted to have our choice before the Raiders. Again, I like the aggressiveness to move up for someone you want. After Teddy at 32 and Carr at 36 the only other good QB drafted in 2014 is Garoppolo at pick 62. Obviously Carr and Garop have turned out better then Teddy but (IMO) neither are franchise QB's. Obviously Teddy was a better pick (consolation) then the Top 2 QB's that went ahead - Bortles and Manziel. Again, with Hindsight I don't see any QB in 2014 that would have been a franchise QB.
So your opinion of not being able to want to draft a QB and keep Spielman to do so I disagree with that premise.
#2 (Keep Kubiak): I don't necessarily disagree, but if you replace Zimmer most of his staff likely leaves, and if you want an offensive-minded coach, the odds he keeps Kubiak are low.
#3: I can't agree with your contention that Spielman was not responsible for Ponder. I know he was not full GM but he handled player evaluation and draft above all others, and by the time Ponder was drafted Childress was gone. In the article below, he takes responsibility for picking Ponder:
Despite Ponder history, Spielman not afraid to draft QB | FOX Sports
"I know I’m going to get criticized and I took full responsibility for Christian Ponder, is he a bust or is he not a bust," Spielman said.
Aside from being a plain bad choice, Ponder was a conservative - I would really say gutless - pick. People want us to find a Mahomes or Lamar Jackson or Deshaun Watson QB who can move, but Spielman has chosen Bradford and Cousins, traditional pocket passers, and even Ponder and Bridgewater were hardly spectacular athletes with aggressive playing style. There is nothing to even indicate he believes the team needs a different type of QB.
#2 - Yea I know most staff would leave if Zimmer is canned but I am talking about what I would want not reality  . I also don't think it would be out-of-the realm to keep Kubiak as OC and help target a QB. I mean Kubiak pretty much wants to be an OC after his (stroke??) when he was HC years ago. Also, I say I would prefer an offensive minded coach but that not one jumps out to me as much as the DC from the 49'ers Saleh. Is their a offensive minded guru that jumps out to you or others? I keep reading of top HC candidates and none make me that excited other then Saleh. Saleh seems (pure conjecture on my part) to me that he could coach all sides of the ball and not be the Buddy Ryan/Mike Zimmer one dimensional coach. So again, under my premise/current want, I would have the Wilf's meet with Spelly and tell him we need to start looking ahead and getting the franchise QB and a new HC. If their is any kinda hymming and hawing or not on same page then I would get rid of both Spelly and Zimmer. That would open up a whole other scenario where a new GM would put everything different in motion and require a whole new take on my end.
#3 - We can disagree on "the buck stops with GM" and the Ponder pick but I also reflect back on that QB draft. There were no franchise QB's produced unless you count Cam who we never had a shot at anyway. The rest are guys like Gabbert, Locker, Mallett, Dalton (who I wanted) and a bunch of other no names. I do think the Ponder pick was a huge reach by the triangle but if we reached for any of the other QB's its not like we missed anything special. Same as for the Bridgewater draft that I breakdown above. So I actually don't think Spelly has a "bad" track record of drafting QB's when the evidence is very sparse on the number he has drafted and what the alternative QB were that would have been much better.
I think Spelly is a very good (Top 7 ish GM in total role and prob Top 5 in regards to drafting) GM and I would be fine with him running the show with an emphasis on drafting a franchise QB. I know some folks disagree with me on Spelly but this is just my opinion and spit-balling.
So back to my original - can Zimmer, talk with Spelly about drafting a QB and an eye for beyond Cousins and his salary cap number, attempt to keep Kubiak as OC and input on rookie QB, and hire the best HC candidate that I think is Saleh. Saleh and Kubiak also have a track record of coaching together. So some continuity on Offense for a young QB and hopefully a HC that can coach and develop all sides of the ball.
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