Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
I knew we'd lose Griff, Rhodes, Waynes, Joseph and Mack. That was a foregone conclusion. I also thought we'd not be able to keep Harris. So I thought going into the offseason that our defense was going to suck so bad in 2020 that we would have to add a piece or two to our already very good offense and just outscore everyone.
Two things happened since then: we lost Diggs and we had a fantastic draft.
Now, things look a little different. Jefferson won't come close to replacing Diggs, but the WR position is sure better than I thought it could be after losing Diggs. The line should be better as well.
And the defense...hmm...suddenly doesn't look too bad. Griff, Rhodes, Waynes, Mack and Joseph are now Odenigbo, Hughes, Gladney, Dantzler and Pierce. Certainly young and probably poised to make a lot of mistakes, but our corner play last year was atrocious. It's not so crazy to think we might have upgraded.
until they fix the 3T position with a real disrupting presence I think our coverage is going to suffer regardless of changing DBs.
I think just the fact that we have pass rushers ready to compete for the 3T position helps. Stephen, if he makes the team, is a disciplined gap player who's OK against the run, but doesn't offer anything in terms of getting to the passer. If one of Lynch, Watts, Mata'afa (pass rushers all) can beat him out, the pass rush should be improved. Of course, we might lose something in run defense.
I think the bigger problem in 2020 will be replacing the pressure we got from Griffen. Offenses will likely just roll protection over to Hunter. Not sure we have the threat on the other side to discourage that.
Mataafa is lightening, but doesnt strike near often enough and seems to wear down to quickly to be a 3 down guy, ( his added weight could be a difference maker there, or a hindrance, time will tell) which IMO will be key to solidifying our D, we have to be good on all 3 downs and having to choose between run d and pass d on first down or other unpredictable situations was the Achilles heel last year IMO. Watts has some potential, but to date unrealized. Lynch is in the same mold as Mataafa IMO, likley will be a little light to hold up on run downs, but I hope I am wrong.
Actually, he put on weight recently...so he's not...lighting...
Quote: @"BarrNone55" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
I knew we'd lose Griff, Rhodes, Waynes, Joseph and Mack. That was a foregone conclusion. I also thought we'd not be able to keep Harris. So I thought going into the offseason that our defense was going to suck so bad in 2020 that we would have to add a piece or two to our already very good offense and just outscore everyone.
Two things happened since then: we lost Diggs and we had a fantastic draft.
Now, things look a little different. Jefferson won't come close to replacing Diggs, but the WR position is sure better than I thought it could be after losing Diggs. The line should be better as well.
And the defense...hmm...suddenly doesn't look too bad. Griff, Rhodes, Waynes, Mack and Joseph are now Odenigbo, Hughes, Gladney, Dantzler and Pierce. Certainly young and probably poised to make a lot of mistakes, but our corner play last year was atrocious. It's not so crazy to think we might have upgraded.
until they fix the 3T position with a real disrupting presence I think our coverage is going to suffer regardless of changing DBs.
I think just the fact that we have pass rushers ready to compete for the 3T position helps. Stephen, if he makes the team, is a disciplined gap player who's OK against the run, but doesn't offer anything in terms of getting to the passer. If one of Lynch, Watts, Mata'afa (pass rushers all) can beat him out, the pass rush should be improved. Of course, we might lose something in run defense.
I think the bigger problem in 2020 will be replacing the pressure we got from Griffen. Offenses will likely just roll protection over to Hunter. Not sure we have the threat on the other side to discourage that.
Mataafa is lightening, but doesnt strike near often enough and seems to wear down to quickly to be a 3 down guy, ( his added weight could be a difference maker there, or a hindrance, time will tell) which IMO will be key to solidifying our D, we have to be good on all 3 downs and having to choose between run d and pass d on first down or other unpredictable situations was the Achilles heel last year IMO. Watts has some potential, but to date unrealized. Lynch is in the same mold as Mataafa IMO, likley will be a little light to hold up on run downs, but I hope I am wrong.
Actually, he put on weight recently...so he's not...lighting...
he may still be... will remain to be seen how much if any quicks he lost in his transformation. Like I said, that weight could be a difference maker or a career killer.
I think that Watts is a guy the team is very under the radar excited about.
Some of us were saying this weeks ago. Honestly, it wasn't until Geoff used the '1 Step Back to take 2 Steps Forward ' analogy that I think folks started to understand where JL, Mark and myself as well as others were coming from.
I can't think of one single team ever that lost 7 Starters and several Contributors that didn't take a step back.
It's been the convenient move to go Player by Player and point out that on whole the upgrades look better than what was lost. Folks, if Sports actually worked that way how come franchises that go bonkers in Free Agency and get dubbed Super Teams almost always stink?
It's chemistry. Plain and simple. 3 New Starters at CB. 2 have some reps, with Hughes having far more than Hill. Gladney will be brand new. Dantzler needs to add some weight but should also contribute. They may look as good or better than overpaying for Rhodes/Waynes/Alexamder, may even have more upside and are one hell of a lot cheaper. But they will have little to no chemistry or continuity. With each other. With Harris & Smith. With Kendricks and Barr.
You can say the exact same thing about the Defensive Line. Pierce is new. Odenigbo has a lot of snaps, all over the Line, not solely at RDE. According to Daily Norseman the team is much higher on Shamar than we are. Lynch, Wonnum and Wellekes are Rookies. There will be chemistry issues.
And it's worse because of the truncated offseason. Much worse. There are going to be busted assignments. Blown coverages. Mistakes and growing pains.
No way does a Defense that ranked 5th in Scoring lose 5 Starters, a rotational DE and both backup Safeties and stay at the same level. The run Defense should be better. The Pass Rush will be worse. The Secondary will be up and down as it learns on the fly.
The Offense is in better shape but did nothing to address it's most glaring weakness: LG. And it may have created another one at RG. Cleveland should not be rushed into Starting. Teams that are contending do that. Minnesota is not contending this year. Let him work his way into the role when he's ready.
JJ, Sharpe, Bisi and Irv will replace a lot of Diggs' production but don't threaten teams vertically like he did. Minnesota will need longer drives into stacked boxes without the PAP Bombs to back them up. Kubiak will dial up shots to Adam. But you don't want your marquee Receiver who's over 30 and coming off a hammy going vertical too often. JJ and Hollins will get some looks too. But they simply won't have the chemistry with Cousins. We already saw Kirk trying to connect with Hollins deep a few times last year without much luck.
Here again is where a limited offseason hurts. If Cousins had a regular offseason to work with his deep threat weapons it would help mitigate the loss of Stefon. It's simply not going to happen.
Fits and starts. Some surprising wins, especially later in the season. Some painfully surprising losses, including some ugly ones, earlier in the year. Just like the article said. If we even get a season at all.
I'm sure by Week 1 80% of the Forum will have talked themselves into Minnesota being a serious contender again. A lot of you are already doing it. Love the enthusiasm! I prefer to stay more Realistic. I don't expect them to make the Playoffs, though they might push for the 7th seed with a late season run. I expect it and am fine with it. Looking forward to seeing growth from all the young talent. 1 Step Back to take 2 Steps Forward!
It's reasonable to expect the team to take a step back this year, especially since we are adding so many young players under less than ideal circumstances. I really hope that the Vikings have a strong plan for virtual coaching. I agree that not addressing LG is baffling. Maybe they value developmental players on the roster more than fans do, but it was a missed opportunity. It does scare me if they value Shamar highly. He's a very average player, who does not offer much of anything on passing downs. I still think they should have double dipped at WR, but Sharpe & Bisi are solid depth and I do think Jefferson can be a vertical threat. Not having time to develop timing with Cousins hurts, but everyone is going to be in the same boat & it's going to be a weird season. I think you might see some teams adapt well to the current conditions, but not be able to sustain it once things level off to a new normal.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
Love the enthusiasm! I prefer to stay more Realistic.
Pessimism is no closer to realism than optimism. Yet pessimists ALWAYS think of themselves as "realists." The one with the facts is the one who is more realistic. Many times that's the optimist.
I think your default take tends toward worst case. What's more, I don't even know who you're talking to. I haven't heard anyone on this board predict Super Bowl or even improvement from these Vikings. Just a lot of "hey, look we may not be as bad as we thought!" Which, for some reason, seems to get your typewriter heated up.
But here's my default take. And it's always been this. Everyone in the NFL is a serious contender. I genuinely believe that every team in the NFL, whether they went 16-0 or 0-16, is a few additions or subtractions away from 8-8. It's parity in the NFL. It's why so many teams go from 4-12 to 13-3 in one season (like the 49ers did last year). It's not the 80s anymore, FSU. Happens all the time now. Next year it will be the Bucs. Watch. It's why nobody ever gets their Super Bowl predictions right. And speaking of Super Bowls, I'll bet you a box of toilet paper that the Vikings starting guards in 2020 will be better qualified than any of the four starting guards in last year's Super Bowl. Don't take the bet, because it's just a fact.
See, that's where the tell is in perspective. Super Bowl was played with starting guards who were as follows: a league average 6th rounder, a journeyman on his 4th team who has since moved on, a former Lion bust who the 49ers got for a 5th rounder, and a 7th round nobody who was on his 8th team in 9 years, now on his 9th in 10. Yet the Vikings will be choosing between two 1st rounders (Reiff and Cleveland) at left guard and will likely start a 2nd year 4th rounder at right guard. Do ya see what I mean about perspective?
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ FSUVike said:
Love the enthusiasm! I prefer to stay more Realistic.
Pessimism is no closer to realism than optimism. Yet pessimists ALWAYS think of themselves as "realists." The one with the facts is the one who is more realistic. Many times that's the optimist.
I think your default take tends toward worst case. What's more, I don't even know who you're talking to. I haven't heard anyone on this board predict Super Bowl or even improvement from these Vikings. Just a lot of "hey, look we may not be as bad as we thought!" Which, for some reason, seems to get your typewriter heated up.
But here's my default take. And it's always been this. Everyone in the NFL is a serious contender. I genuinely believe that every team in the NFL, whether they went 16-0 or 0-16, is a few additions or subtractions away from 8-8. It's parity in the NFL. It's why so many teams go from 4-12 to 13-3 in one season (like the 49ers did last year). It's not the 80s anymore, FSU. Happens all the time now. Next year it will be the Bucs. Watch. It's why nobody ever gets their Super Bowl predictions right. And speaking of Super Bowls, I'll bet you a box of toilet paper that the Vikings starting guards in 2020 will be better qualified than any of the four starting guards in last year's Super Bowl. Don't take the bet, because it's just a fact.
See, that's where the tell is in perspective. Super Bowl was played with starting guards who were as follows: a league average 6th rounder, a journeyman on his 4th team who has since moved on, a former Lion bust who the 49ers got for a 5th rounder, and a 7th round nobody who was on his 8th team in 9 years, now on his 9th in 10. Yet the Vikings will be choosing between two 1st rounders (Reiff and Cleveland) at left guard and will likely start a 2nd year 4th rounder at right guard. Do ya see what I mean about perspective?
Show me a.single line that wasn't a fact. Am I making up that they lost 7 Starters? Am I making up that Mike will be counting on more Rookies starting or contributing early than he ever has before? Am I making up the chemistry issues with so many new Players and first time Starters?
You're assuming. A lot. You're assuming Samia and whomever, solely by virtue of where they were Drafted, will be better than the Super Bowl Teams OGs. Assuming Rick starts Cleveland as a Rookie. Assuming Diggs production will be replaced by a Rookie, a TE and a Toer 3 FA. Assuming the D-Line doesn't regress.
Your schtick is easy to read. You won't debate point by point. You pick a single item, present your Assumption as Proof of Fact, then declare yourself the winner of the entire debate.
You're also a classic 'see what you want to see'. JL, Mark and others said before and after the Draft that the team was going backwards. And posters pooh-poohed them each time. Shit, there's a thread up right now with posters showing outrage that GB is still considered by the Media to be the team to beat in the Norris.
You're absolutely entitled to your point of view. I 1,000% hope you're right about all of it. You're also so fucking sure about every single one of your assumptions that you seem to take it personally when others disagree. Seriously, who responds more to posts predicting a downturn, you or BN? You're both smart, funny guys that seem to have decided that you're Forum Cops elected to enforce purple koolaid consumption. Good for you. Won't stop any of who aren't drinking the water from stating our opinions. Probably just keeps us committed to providing the perspective that is often lacking here.
There is enough talent and coaching talent to put this team into the playoffs again, potentially winning the division.
If you get anything from the rookies (aka the 2015 class), then this team could run deep. Outside of Diggs, the losses from the roster should be able to be matched performance wise. Piece over Linval, Hill over Rhodes, Cleveland and Reiff over Reiff and Elf.
We still have a dynamic duo at RB and potentially TE. A damn good 1# WR, a great coaching staff (Zim, Patterson, Capers, Kubiak). A pair of stud LBs and safeties, a premier DE. A little luck, a little development (Hughes, Fedi, Irv), and this team will be in the thick of it in January in a prospective “down year”.
For those of you that feel like there's less and less room for honest debate, head over to Daily Norseman. It's sort of the Wild West in the comments section but I'll take that over the group think that's crept in around here. Not going to delete my account for now. Don't expect to be posting again any time soon.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
For those of you that feel like there's less and less room for honest debate, head over to Daily Norseman. It's sort of the Wild West in the comments section but I'll take that over the group think that's crept in around here. Not going to delete my account for now. Don't expect to be posting again any time soon.
Stick around, I like the counter points. Yeah, there is a vein of Pollyanna here which I've called out occasionally but I've learned that a fan website is going to have that regardless.
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